Reason latency is making me go nuts and hate it for playing live guitar!

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

21 Jul 2018

Reason - > empty project with just one Audio track, no FX, monitoring on, I get pops if latency is not at the very least 128 samples. But even at 128 I get a random pop with a minute or two. I have to change the latency to 256 samples to not hear a pop on instrument input! All this in empty project!

Guitar Rig 5 - > any preset (lots of FX) works fine even at 48 samples latency. Same computer, same interface (RME fireface 400), same RME ASIO driver.
I tried changing all Reason preference settings, optimize windows settings, power plans, update drivers, Reason 10 latest update, etc.

Is it something on my system or it's Reason not up to the task of low latency???
What is your minimum latency you can play guitar in Reason?

drloop
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21 Jul 2018

64 samples @ 44.1kHz works fine for a simple project for me.

But after the latest Reason updates, and the latest W10 update plus the patching for Intel CPU bugs there is something that makes my machine run less effecient. Before I could run 64 samples at 44.1kHz with DSP load up to 45% without any crackles. Now I can run at 25% before ti starts to crackle 64 samples so something have made the performacne worse.

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Oquasec
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21 Jul 2018

I'm lazy so I just make partitions and keep the good stuf off the windows drive so I can just reset it everytime no risk
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Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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guitfnky
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21 Jul 2018

haven’t had any issues at 128 samples using a few instances of Bias Fx at 44.1 and other effects/instruments. I could probably go lower if I needed, but never felt much gain going to 64. it does start to crackle a bit if I’m finding myself filling out an arrangement fairly early on, but it works well enough most of the time.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

jlgrimes
Posts: 661
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

21 Jul 2018

Kategra wrote:
21 Jul 2018
Reason - > empty project with just one Audio track, no FX, monitoring on, I get pops if latency is not at the very least 128 samples. But even at 128 I get a random pop with a minute or two. I have to change the latency to 256 samples to not hear a pop on instrument input! All this in empty project!

Guitar Rig 5 - > any preset (lots of FX) works fine even at 48 samples latency. Same computer, same interface (RME fireface 400), same RME ASIO driver.
I tried changing all Reason preference settings, optimize windows settings, power plans, update drivers, Reason 10 latest update, etc.

Is it something on my system or it's Reason not up to the task of low latency???
What is your minimum latency you can play guitar in Reason?
Are you Mac or PC?


Reason definitely have issues on a Mac and must be ran in Low Resolution mode.

I had this problem. Reason was almost unusable on my 5k imac. Someone mentioned Low Resolution Mode. It got Reason performing acceptable.


Are you using a 4K monitor (or higher)?

I think Graphics issues are whats affecting Reason. Something in their code is not handling graphics well. I think this might be more Mac than PC issue but I'd imagine any high resolution graphics system can give Reason issues.

How many cores does your processor have btw.

jlgrimes
Posts: 661
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

21 Jul 2018

drloop wrote:
21 Jul 2018
64 samples @ 44.1kHz works fine for a simple project for me.

But after the latest Reason updates, and the latest W10 update plus the patching for Intel CPU bugs there is something that makes my machine run less effecient. Before I could run 64 samples at 44.1kHz with DSP load up to 45% without any crackles. Now I can run at 25% before ti starts to crackle 64 samples so something have made the performacne worse.

I remember around the beginning of this year there was a cyber security patch that affected performance on both Macs and PCs which dealt with Intel Processors.

I wonder if this could be an issue.

To be honest even Ableton has been behaving hoggy lately.

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

21 Jul 2018

jlgrimes wrote:
21 Jul 2018
Kategra wrote:
21 Jul 2018
Reason - > empty project with just one Audio track, no FX, monitoring on, I get pops if latency is not at the very least 128 samples. But even at 128 I get a random pop with a minute or two. I have to change the latency to 256 samples to not hear a pop on instrument input! All this in empty project!

Guitar Rig 5 - > any preset (lots of FX) works fine even at 48 samples latency. Same computer, same interface (RME fireface 400), same RME ASIO driver.
I tried changing all Reason preference settings, optimize windows settings, power plans, update drivers, Reason 10 latest update, etc.

Is it something on my system or it's Reason not up to the task of low latency???
What is your minimum latency you can play guitar in Reason?
Are you Mac or PC?


Reason definitely have issues on a Mac and must be ran in Low Resolution mode.

I had this problem. Reason was almost unusable on my 5k imac. Someone mentioned Low Resolution Mode. It got Reason performing acceptable.


Are you using a 4K monitor (or higher)?

I think Graphics issues are whats affecting Reason. Something in their code is not handling graphics well. I think this might be more Mac than PC issue but I'd imagine any high resolution graphics system can give Reason issues.

How many cores does your processor have btw.
Windows 10, i7 6800k 6 cores, 16 GB RAM
1920x1080 display.

jlgrimes
Posts: 661
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

21 Jul 2018

Kategra wrote:
21 Jul 2018
jlgrimes wrote:
21 Jul 2018


Are you Mac or PC?


Reason definitely have issues on a Mac and must be ran in Low Resolution mode.

I had this problem. Reason was almost unusable on my 5k imac. Someone mentioned Low Resolution Mode. It got Reason performing acceptable.


Are you using a 4K monitor (or higher)?

I think Graphics issues are whats affecting Reason. Something in their code is not handling graphics well. I think this might be more Mac than PC issue but I'd imagine any high resolution graphics system can give Reason issues.

How many cores does your processor have btw.
Windows 10, i7 6800k 6 cores, 16 GB RAM
1920x1080 display.
Have any other DAWS you can try?

If not try Reaper. It has an unexpiring demo.

RME is known for good drivers but if Reaper is clicking it is most likely a RME issue (or issue with Mac).


Are you USB or FireWire?

If USB, it helps to try different ports. Not all USB ports are the same.

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2908
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

21 Jul 2018

What interface? I run at 64 samples with multiple tracks of love processed audio on a machine way older than yours. I’m inclined to blame either the interface or it’s drivers.

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

22 Jul 2018

My interface is RME Fireface 400 (firewire) , drivers up to date.
Windows 10, i7 6800k 6 cores, 16 GB RAM
1920x1080 display.


Tried in again today in Studio One Pro (2) and in stand alone Guitar Rig 5 and both of them can run on 48 sample latency with lots of effects and no clicks/ pops.
In Reason 10 and same issue in Reason 9.5... I have to select 256 samples latency to be clicks/pops free, even without loading any actual effect, just the live guitar input :(

I'll uninstall both 9.5 and 10 and install again Reason 10 but I'm not optimistic it will fix the problem.

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jam-s
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22 Jul 2018

You could try to unplug your network and wifi while running Reason and check if it improves something.

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Kategra
Posts: 327
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22 Jul 2018

I uninstalled R9.5 and 10, cleared Reason left over files from AppData Local and Roaming.
I reinstalled Reason 10 and made some more windows tweaking, now I can use 128 sample rate while having The Echo active on the guitar input channel, no other effect or track added :(

Meanwhile standalone Guitar Rig can play any heavy preset at just 48 sample latency while my PC is uploading ~15 MB (yes, MEGA BYTES) to sync my online storage. Reason can't even do 96 samples latency with Ethernet disabled (I don't have wi-fi).
Bought 2000+ EURO worth of REs over the ears, but can't use any of them for playing live in Reason, I have to use Studio One 2 Pro or Guitar Rig 5 elements- feeling such a loss.. lots of money in my setup and Reason can't fucking process a live signal.
Last edited by Kategra on 22 Jul 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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QVprod
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22 Jul 2018

There’s something up with your OS and Reason. That’s not normal behavior.

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Biolumin3sc3nt
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22 Jul 2018

Try not running at 48 or 96 - stick with 64, 128 or 256. Buffer size

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

22 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
22 Jul 2018
There’s something up with your OS and Reason. That’s not normal behavior.
It seems that if I disable multi core audio rendering than It works on 48 sample with some RE on top. So the problem is related to how Reason handles mutiple threading on my PC. I tried with just hyper threading disabled from BIOS - no difference. Still digging but come on! Sudio One nor Guitar Rig has any problem it's just freaking Reason bollocks!

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Biolumin3sc3nt
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

22 Jul 2018

I would also stay away from running the RME interface on Firewire and use USB instead. I compared to the 2 on an old iMac and had significantly better ( less ) latency using USB. Especially since the new RME drivers are designed for it. Hopefully You're up to date on em. So yeah, even though I'm on a Mac, test and compare the two. Best of Luck

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

22 Jul 2018

Biolumin3sc3nt wrote:
22 Jul 2018
I would also stay away from running the RME interface on Firewire and use USB instead. I compared to the 2 on an old iMac and had significantly better ( less ) latency using USB. Especially since the new RME drivers are designed for it. Hopefully You're up to date on em. So yeah, even though I'm on a Mac, test and compare the two. Best of Luck
Thanks!

RME Fireface does not have a USB connection, only FireWire and its drivers are up to date. As I written above, the problem seem to be how Reason handles the multiple CPU cores on my PC. If I let Reason use only one CPU core, then the problem disappears, but of-course at the expense of being able to harness only one sixth of my PC computing power in Reason. All other installed audio programs don't have this problem on my PC, so I still blame it on Reason.

So while I found the workaround with disabling Multi core rendering, I'm still looking for a permanent solution.

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Marco Raaphorst
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22 Jul 2018

Kategra wrote:
22 Jul 2018
Biolumin3sc3nt wrote:
22 Jul 2018
I would also stay away from running the RME interface on Firewire and use USB instead. I compared to the 2 on an old iMac and had significantly better ( less ) latency using USB. Especially since the new RME drivers are designed for it. Hopefully You're up to date on em. So yeah, even though I'm on a Mac, test and compare the two. Best of Luck
Thanks!

RME Fireface does not have a USB connection, only FireWire and its drivers are up to date. As I written above, the problem seem to be how Reason handles the multiple CPU cores on my PC. If I let Reason use only one CPU core, then the problem disappears, but of-course at the expense of being able to harness only one sixth of my PC computing power in Reason. All other installed audio programs don't have this problem on my PC, so I still blame it on Reason.

So while I found the workaround with disabling Multi core rendering, I'm still looking for a permanent solution.
Yes Reason performs worse compared to other DAWs on low latency. The Props are still working on these performance issues I believe (or: hope!).

I am getting the same results as you are. Using Ableton Live I can get way better performance using half the latency Reason would need for glitch free performance.

BTW when using a Mac without a dedicated graphics card Reason and low latency are totally impossible. Always make sure the dedicated graphics card is running using something like the gfxCardStatus app.

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Oquasec
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22 Jul 2018

Been a rewire user from reason 5 all the way to 10 so I don't expect to drop fl studio anytime for serious work in terms of latency and vst performance.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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QVprod
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22 Jul 2018

Kategra wrote:
22 Jul 2018
QVprod wrote:
22 Jul 2018
There’s something up with your OS and Reason. That’s not normal behavior.
It seems that if I disable multi core audio rendering than It works on 48 sample with some RE on top. So the problem is related to how Reason handles mutiple threading on my PC. I tried with just hyper threading disabled from BIOS - no difference. Still digging but come on! Sudio One nor Guitar Rig has any problem it's just freaking Reason bollocks!
You've tried with multi core rendering on and hyper threading off (in Reason prefs)? I remember people having issues with the hyper threading option when it was added.

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guitfnky
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22 Jul 2018

out of curiosity, is there a reason you need such low buffer settings? I’ve never had a problem with latency at 128 samples. but, then I’m not a shredder, so maybe I’m just not playing fast enough to notice much difference, lower than that.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

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Kategra
Posts: 327
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

23 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
22 Jul 2018
Kategra wrote:
22 Jul 2018


It seems that if I disable multi core audio rendering than It works on 48 sample with some RE on top. So the problem is related to how Reason handles mutiple threading on my PC. I tried with just hyper threading disabled from BIOS - no difference. Still digging but come on! Sudio One nor Guitar Rig has any problem it's just freaking Reason bollocks!
You've tried with multi core rendering on and hyper threading off (in Reason prefs)? I remember people having issues with the hyper threading option when it was added.
Yes, I tried all combinations and disabling hyper threading does not solve the issue (as I wrote in my post above, I even disabled CPU hyper threading from BIOS and still did not solve the issue).

guitfnky wrote:
22 Jul 2018
out of curiosity, is there a reason you need such low buffer settings? I’ve never had a problem with latency at 128 samples. but, then I’m not a shredder, so maybe I’m just not playing fast enough to notice much difference, lower than that.
Not a shredder, but when I add inserts FX, some of them are not zero latency and it adds to the feeling that there is lag. Since I also practice with a full hardware analog guitar combo, it makes adjusting to Reason lag kill all the music making vibe.

My problem is, if most of their competition can do it (Native Instruments, Presonus, ImageLine, Avid, etc.) Reason should deliver low latency also.
Maybe it affects only CPUs with more than 4 cores, maybe it's even more specific than just CPU, but it has to be fixed or at the very least Propellerhead should point to the culprit and push for solution.

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Marco Raaphorst
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23 Jul 2018

guitfnky wrote:
22 Jul 2018
out of curiosity, is there a reason you need such low buffer settings? I’ve never had a problem with latency at 128 samples. but, then I’m not a shredder, so maybe I’m just not playing fast enough to notice much difference, lower than that.
it is all about timing imo. what latency value do you use for guitar? I think 64 samples is best, 128 is a little too high but it is doable. in Ableton I am always at 64 when playing guitar. no issues. but in Reason 64 samples is still a heavy issue.

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chimp_spanner
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23 Jul 2018

Personally I struggle with anything higher than 64 or 96, but I do a lot of rock and metal, and there's nothing worse than feeling the lag when you're trying to do fast palm mutes or percussive playing. I mean it is doable, and I have been known to track at 128 when I absolutely have to. But I prefer not to. The delay *is* very small even up to 256 but different people will notice it to different degrees.

With regards to this specific problem...it is odd. I routinely run Guitar Rig 5, POD Farm 2.5, LePou, BIAS and Kuassa at 64 samples with delays, reverbs, distortion racks, EQs, all sorts. That *and* multiple mix channels with inserts attached to Superior Drummer 2. So it's not the case that Reason can't process live audio. But rather that it's having trouble on your system for some strange reason.

I have multicore on, and HT off in Reason. That allows me to run at 64 samples with the aforementioned plugins on an i7 4700MQ, which is a 4th gen 4 core chip. Sometimes, under certain circumstances, I get a performance boost with HT on. To be totally honest I don't fully understand how it's implemented or how it relates to my project. I just have to change the setting from time to time but mostly it's off. But it sounds like you've checked all that.

Also check your sample rate. 44.1 or 48 will be fine. 96 or above is gonna needlessly tax your CPU.

Super obvious but check your PC's power plan. Some DAWs, like Cubase, have the ability to switch the system to a high performance plan automatically. Reason doesn't, and sometimes I'll end up running in balanced or power saver mode and wondering why my performance sucks.

Again, really obvious/standard advice but try closing all unnecessary apps (certain AV's are really bad for audio and video performance, Avast being the worst I've used). Also make sure that gfx and chipset drivers are properly installed, although tbh if it's working fine in other DAWs that might not have any bearing.

The only other thing I can think is that for some reason that interface is performing poorly with Reason. Not sure if you were using it with earlier versions without issue though? If it's at all possible to get your hands on a USB2 interface to try, then I'd definitely recommend it. Firewire used to be required for low latency but I'm at 64 samples and 5ms in/5ms out on a UR44 so I don't think it offers as much of an advantage as it used to in the dark days of USB interfaces!!

In any case you should definitely be able to do what I do with your setup. My laptop is something like 5 years old and it's still killing it. Hope you get to the bottom of it man!

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manuel radioact77
Posts: 38
Joined: 09 Jun 2017

23 Jul 2018

Hi,

I always record my guitar (and even vocals) through my Pod Farm software since it has zero latency monitoring. I record with 'dry input' and 'dry outpout' - it's just a way to record with zero latency. It works perfectly. There are probably other ways but this is the way i found to forget the latency issues.

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