32 bit depth exporting coming soon?

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QVprod
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19 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018
selig wrote:
19 Jul 2018


I think you may be trying to correlate bit depth with loudness wars?

OK, I’ll bite: in what way is 32 bit superior when exporting, besides in being able to recover from accidentally going over 0dBFS with the export?

My point is that you automatically “work around it” when you avoid clipping when exporting, which most of us already do, right?


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1) I'm sure having the conversion process not act like a limiter is a good thing.

2) If your mastering engineer ever has any problems, he can just turn it down and the peaks are still there, instead of contacting you to make a miniature change.
That doesn't really make it superior. Not clipping your master isn't a workaround. That's called proper levels. Peaks don't get cut off in converting to 24bit if you aren't clipping in the first place , and you shouldn't be hitting 0db anyway if you intend to send to a mastering engineer. The very article you posted says this in the beginning
For the most part, following these 2 steps will provide a master that is ideal for mastering:

1.Don’t allow peak levels to reach 0 dBFS.
Don’t use a peak-limiter or other similar plugins that prevent peaks that would otherwise reach or clip 0 dBFS by creating a hard ceiling at or below 0 dBFS.
He actually mentions exporting at 32bit as workaround. You can avoid clipping by just turning the master fader down with zero negative effect on your mix quality. If you peek levels are that high that clipping is unavoidable then the mix probably needs adjustment somewhere. If you're mastering yourself, then the purpose of a brickwall limiter is to prevent clipping at 0db. By the time it gets to consumers it reduced down to 16 bit, where again you benefit from not clipping. If mastering engineers prefer 32 bit, it's because they keep dealing with clients who send them clipped files, not because there's any sonic benefit.

EggplantTown
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19 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
19 Jul 2018
EggplantTown wrote:
Yeah sure 1 and 2 are the same reason, but there's still context. It's a tedious job to have to make a tiny change, re export and send the file again. Why not just 32 bit? Who needs a converter to limit anyway and it's a one time implementation that will last for a very long time and will be competitive with all the other DAWs.

II'm sure mastering engineers prefer 32 bit because they have the option to have more control over it.
There is no more control over a properly recorded 24 bit file and a 32 bit floating point file.

Why not just 32 bit? Because Reason currently does not support it, and I’m a realist! And I could equally respond with “why not just not clip in the first place?”.
Which is good advice with working with a DAW that does NOT support 32 bit export, right? ;)

In other words, since Reason doesn’t support 32 bit export, the best advice is to not clip. And if you follow that advice, you’ll never need 32 bit file export (though I’m sure it will eventually be added to the app at some future point).


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Well you are missing the point of why I started this thread :P

When I ask "why not 32 bit" I mean why not implement it, it's a useful option to have.

EggplantTown
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19 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018
EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018


1) I'm sure having the conversion process not act like a limiter is a good thing.

2) If your mastering engineer ever has any problems, he can just turn it down and the peaks are still there, instead of contacting you to make a miniature change.
That doesn't really make it superior. Not clipping your master isn't a workaround. That's called proper levels. Peaks don't get cut off in converting to 24bit if you aren't clipping in the first place , and you shouldn't be hitting 0db anyway if you intend to send to a mastering engineer. The very article you posted says this in the beginning
For the most part, following these 2 steps will provide a master that is ideal for mastering:

1.Don’t allow peak levels to reach 0 dBFS.
Don’t use a peak-limiter or other similar plugins that prevent peaks that would otherwise reach or clip 0 dBFS by creating a hard ceiling at or below 0 dBFS.
He actually mentions exporting at 32bit as workaround. You can avoid clipping by just turning the master fader down with zero negative effect on your mix quality. If you peek levels are that high that clipping is unavoidable then the mix probably needs adjustment somewhere. If you're mastering yourself, then the purpose of a brickwall limiter is to prevent clipping at 0db. By the time it gets to consumers it reduced down to 16 bit, where again you benefit from not clipping. If mastering engineers prefer 32 bit, it's because they keep dealing with clients who send them clipped files, not because there's any sonic benefit.
I'm not arguing that there aren't work arounds, I'm just saying 32 bit should be an option as it is with most daws. It has benefits.

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Ahornberg
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19 Jul 2018

The 32 bit audio format that cannot clip has only 24 bit in the mantissa, the other 8 bits are for the exponent. So there are no more data stored as in 24 bit audio format. And I don't know of any 32 bit audio interface for a reasonable price (and IMO 99.9% of the music consumers use devices with less than 24 bit AD converters and listen to lossy compressed music).

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selig
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19 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018


That doesn't really make it superior. Not clipping your master isn't a workaround. That's called proper levels. Peaks don't get cut off in converting to 24bit if you aren't clipping in the first place , and you shouldn't be hitting 0db anyway if you intend to send to a mastering engineer. The very article you posted says this in the beginning He actually mentions exporting at 32bit as workaround. You can avoid clipping by just turning the master fader down with zero negative effect on your mix quality. If you peek levels are that high that clipping is unavoidable then the mix probably needs adjustment somewhere. If you're mastering yourself, then the purpose of a brickwall limiter is to prevent clipping at 0db. By the time it gets to consumers it reduced down to 16 bit, where again you benefit from not clipping. If mastering engineers prefer 32 bit, it's because they keep dealing with clients who send them clipped files, not because there's any sonic benefit.
I'm not arguing that there aren't work arounds, I'm just saying 32 bit should be an option as it is with most daws. It has benefits.
It has exactly ONE benefit.

As for “why not”, it’s likely only because the Props tend to move slow and if anything they tend to advocate for features that cannot be accomplished with workarounds. Ask anyone who tried to make the same argument about mp3 export in Reason (“every other DAW can do it”).

Plus for every one feature they DO add, it means there’s one less feature they don’t add.


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QVprod
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19 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018
QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018


That doesn't really make it superior. Not clipping your master isn't a workaround. That's called proper levels. Peaks don't get cut off in converting to 24bit if you aren't clipping in the first place , and you shouldn't be hitting 0db anyway if you intend to send to a mastering engineer. The very article you posted says this in the beginning He actually mentions exporting at 32bit as workaround. You can avoid clipping by just turning the master fader down with zero negative effect on your mix quality. If you peek levels are that high that clipping is unavoidable then the mix probably needs adjustment somewhere. If you're mastering yourself, then the purpose of a brickwall limiter is to prevent clipping at 0db. By the time it gets to consumers it reduced down to 16 bit, where again you benefit from not clipping. If mastering engineers prefer 32 bit, it's because they keep dealing with clients who send them clipped files, not because there's any sonic benefit.
I'm not arguing that there aren't work arounds, I'm just saying 32 bit should be an option as it is with most daws. It has benefits.
You missed my point. Exporting to 32bit is the workaround. Not hitting 0dB when sending to a mastering engineer is proper protocol. Otherwise there are no sonic (hearable) differences between 32bit and 24bit. The responses you're getting here are related to the comment of 32bit being better.

EggplantTown
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19 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
19 Jul 2018
EggplantTown wrote:
I'm not arguing that there aren't work arounds, I'm just saying 32 bit should be an option as it is with most daws. It has benefits.
It has exactly ONE benefit.

As for “why not”, it’s likely only because the Props tend to move slow and if anything they tend to advocate for features that cannot be accomplished with workarounds. Ask anyone who tried to make the same argument about mp3 export in Reason (“every other DAW can do it”).

Plus for every one feature they DO add, it means there’s one less feature they don’t add.


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Yeah like preserving peaks is such a bad benefit. There are also contexts where it becomes very useful.

Was the drum player really necessary? we have workarounds. MANY workarounds.

EggplantTown
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19 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018
EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018


I'm not arguing that there aren't work arounds, I'm just saying 32 bit should be an option as it is with most daws. It has benefits.
You missed my point. Exporting to 32bit is the workaround. Not hitting 0dB when sending to a mastering engineer is proper protocol. Otherwise there are no sonic (hearable) differences between 32bit and 24bit. The responses you're getting here are related to the comment of 32bit being better.
So 32 bit doesn't give more control?

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jam-s
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19 Jul 2018

If anything a FLAC or even ogg export option would be much more useful.

If you simply check that the clip indicator is not lighting up there's absolutely no need to waste disk space and bandwidth with 32 bit files.

p.s.: I have no problem preserving peaks with 24 or even 16 bit wav exports.
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chimp_spanner
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19 Jul 2018

Whether for sound design, sample packs, library music, mixing, production or my own personal work I haven't encountered, needed or been asked for 32-bit files. I know my experience isn't the totality of all experience, and different people will have different requirements. But I haven't found 24-bit to be insufficient in any way. It's pretty low on the list of required features IMO. Just because other DAWs have it doesn't mean a lot of people are going to need or use it. MP3 would be more useful to me for delivering quick drafts to clients without an extra conversion step.
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raymondh
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19 Jul 2018

I export to 24 bit / 96 kHz (with no dithering) from Reason for the audio I then import into Ozone for mastering.
Then export from Ozone at 16 bit / 44.1 kHz with Ozone's dithering.

I don't have golden ears so not really sure whether the results are much better than 16 bit all the way, but I do know the most impactful improvement to sound quality would be me improving my mixing and mastering abilities way before an increased digital resolution would help!

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tibah
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19 Jul 2018

Why drive careful if you can have airbags? ;)

jlgrimes
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19 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018
Quite surprised that reason doesn't have 32 bit depth exporting yet, it's pretty much the standard for most daws now and is way better than 24 bit.

Haven't seen any threads on this, has Propellerhead mentioned anything about it?
Only real advantage is you can't clip 32 bit.

That said as long as your 24 bit file isn't peaking super duper low 24 bit is plenty of resolution.

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QVprod
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19 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
19 Jul 2018
QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018


You missed my point. Exporting to 32bit is the workaround. Not hitting 0dB when sending to a mastering engineer is proper protocol. Otherwise there are no sonic (hearable) differences between 32bit and 24bit. The responses you're getting here are related to the comment of 32bit being better.
So 32 bit doesn't give more control?
Not really. The reason DAWs use 32 bit float internally is so individual channels don’t clip. However when exporting a mix, your dynamic range is already defined and for best results still needs to be below 0dBfs. If you’re not clipping your master, 32bit will not provide any advantages.

jimmyklane
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19 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
19 Jul 2018
I like the idea of high resolution export, even I do not need it. But tbh, most ppl cannot hear the difference between 96khz 24bit audio and a 128mbit mp3. First, they do not have the equipment, second they do not know how such music would sound. A lot of stuff i hear in the current pop music is such a crap - no bass, no transients, no dynamics, impossible to differentiate instruments, all mixed for mobile phones on 128mbit mp3...
I have trouble hearing a 384k MP3 next to the 16bit wave....but only if the levels are not flatlined. If your entire mix looks like a sausage then I’ve found that I can hear the difference specifically on synth parts.
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rgdaniel
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19 Jul 2018

Not sure why, but I'm somehow reminded of this classic:


drloop
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19 Jul 2018

How do you mix a project which is clipping in 24 bit but not in 32 bit?
Your ar not able to listen to 32 bit, your DA is still 24 bit.

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QVprod
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19 Jul 2018

drloop wrote:
19 Jul 2018
How do you mix a project which is clipping in 24 bit but not in 32 bit?
Your ar not able to listen to 32 bit, your DA is still 24 bit.
DAWs work in 32 bit float. That's why even when the meters are in the red you won't hear distortion.

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selig
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20 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
drloop wrote:
19 Jul 2018
How do you mix a project which is clipping in 24 bit but not in 32 bit?
Your ar not able to listen to 32 bit, your DA is still 24 bit.
DAWs work in 32 bit float. That's why even when the meters are in the red you won't hear distortion.
Hang on a second - the meters being in the red in Reason has nothing to do with distortion. If you clip the output in Reason, you will hear distortion (you may not be bothered by it if it is brief enough and on percussive material).

I agree with drloop - if you clip you will hear it, even if you can lower it later if you export at 32 bit.

The whole “meters in red but not distorting” is a Reason thing, and has to do with two things in Reason. One, that channel meters read in RMS, which always reads below peak levels., and two, that the RMS meters default to showing “red” at -12dBFS. You can change this is the “red meters” bug you, fwiw. But RMS meters are pretty useless for showing clipping since the acutual peak level can be as much as 10-20dB or more higher that what is shown on the meters. Hope that made sense…




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drloop
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20 Jul 2018

QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018
drloop wrote:
19 Jul 2018
How do you mix a project which is clipping in 24 bit but not in 32 bit?
Your ar not able to listen to 32 bit, your DA is still 24 bit.
DAWs work in 32 bit float. That's why even when the meters are in the red you won't hear distortion.
Yes I am aware that Reason have almost infinite dynamic range internally. You can mix almost infinite hot internally in Reason, just lower the output so your DA does not clip.

The problem is since your are mixing with a 24 bit DA the DA will clip. So I really don’t understand how you can mix a project that overloads the DA.
But ofcourse everybody have different workflows. But for me 32 bit is just a waste of disk space.
Last edited by drloop on 20 Jul 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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QVprod
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20 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
20 Jul 2018
QVprod wrote:
DAWs work in 32 bit float. That's why even when the meters are in the red you won't hear distortion.
Hang on a second - the meters being in the red in Reason has nothing to do with distortion. If you clip the output in Reason, you will hear distortion (you may not be bothered by it if it is brief enough and on percussive material).

I agree with drloop - if you clip you will hear it, even if you can lower it later if you export at 32 bit.

The whole “meters in red but not distorting” is a Reason thing, and has to do with two things in Reason. One, that channel meters read in RMS, which always reads below peak levels., and two, that the RMS meters default to showing “red” at -12dBFS. You can change this is the “red meters” bug you, fwiw. But RMS meters are pretty useless for showing clipping since the acutual peak level can be as much as 10-20dB or more higher that what is shown on the meters. Hope that made sense…
I'm referring to clipping indicators in DAWs in general. Probably should've said that instead of meters in the red. By no means do I believe you can push an unlimited amount of gain on the master. I remember your posting in the past about it being impossible to clip channels in Reason, but of course the output goes to the converter where there is indeed a limit to audio signal level.
drloop wrote:
20 Jul 2018
QVprod wrote:
19 Jul 2018


DAWs work in 32 bit float. That's why even when the meters are in the red you won't hear distortion.
Yes I am aware that Reason have almost infinite dynamic range internally. You can mix almost infinite hot internally in Reason, just lower the output so your DA does not clip.

The problem is since your are mixing with a 24 bit DA the DA will clip. So I really don’t understand how you can mix a project that overloads the DA.
But ofcourse everybody have different workflows. But for me 32 bit is just a waste of disk space.
Until we all have 32 bit AD/DA.
Got it. We're in agreement. I'd assume in the OP's case he's not pushing the master that hard to notice the DA clipping, but just simply doesn't really understand audio bit depth and levels. Hopefully that's changed now.


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Oquasec
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20 Jul 2018

knowing propellerhead they'd just say 24bit is enough and you should rewire for 32bitdepth exporting or 64bitdepth.
Reason/FL Studio/Ableton for whenever.

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selig
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20 Jul 2018

drloop wrote:Agree! :)
Agreed here too, as long as we keep “meters in red” and “32 bit audio” and “clipping” as three separate (but related) things.


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drloop
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20 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
20 Jul 2018
drloop wrote:Agree! :)
Agreed here too, as long as we keep “meters in red” and “32 bit audio” and “clipping” as three separate (but related) things.


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Agree! :)

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