32 bit depth exporting coming soon?

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EggplantTown
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20 Jul 2018

Oquasec wrote:
20 Jul 2018
knowing propellerhead they'd just say 24bit is enough and you should rewire for 32bitdepth exporting or 64bitdepth.
That's a bummer.

Sometimes I feel like switching daws because they ignore their fanbase.

I bet you they wouldn't have allowed VSTs if they didn't think it was a good business move.

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aeox
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20 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
20 Jul 2018
Oquasec wrote:
20 Jul 2018
knowing propellerhead they'd just say 24bit is enough and you should rewire for 32bitdepth exporting or 64bitdepth.
That's a bummer.

Sometimes I feel like switching daws because they ignore their fanbase.

I bet you they wouldn't have allowed VSTs if they didn't think it was a good business move.
32 bit export is very very low on the list of features that people want(or need)

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QVprod
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20 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
20 Jul 2018
Oquasec wrote:
20 Jul 2018
knowing propellerhead they'd just say 24bit is enough and you should rewire for 32bitdepth exporting or 64bitdepth.
That's a bummer.

Sometimes I feel like switching daws because they ignore their fanbase.

I bet you they wouldn't have allowed VSTs if they didn't think it was a good business move.
Isn't any time a company adds features to software a business move? New features add new customers and retain old ones. Something like 32 bit though, may come eventually, but considering there's no real benefit to having the option (as we've explained), it's probably low on the priority list. There are plenty of overall user feature requests they have added though. This thread, carried over from the Propellerhead forums, has quite a few things that have been added. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7264556&hilit=death ... usand+cuts. I wouldn't say they ignore their customer base, but they definitely do things their own way.

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JiggeryPokery
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20 Jul 2018

Better no-one mention adding broadcast RF64 output... :lol:

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Loque
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20 Jul 2018

JiggeryPokery wrote:
20 Jul 2018
Better no-one mention adding broadcast RF64 output... :lol:
I dont know what it is nor what it is good for, but now i want that! ;)
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househoppin09
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30 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
19 Jul 2018
Requesting 32 bit float files is just the latest incarnation of mastering engineers saying to keep 3-6 dB headroom on mixes, obviously from past experience with folks who clipped their mixes despite begin told not to do so.
That's an interesting comment, selig, and seems to be consistent with the blog post that was linked upthread: https://theproaudiofiles.com/6-db-headr ... explained/

Is there, in fact, any actual reason to bother shooting for 3-6 dB of headroom on a mix? Even when the mastering engineer explicitly asks for that much headroom, there's no reason for them to actually care, as long as none of the peaks are getting lost... right? I mean, yes, when using a -12 dB reference level, it's likely that the mix will naturally end up sitting in that -6 to -3 range. But if it ends up outside that range for whatever reason, is there any reason why that would ever be worth bothering to correct for, as long as there's absolutely no clipping occurring?


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selig
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31 Jul 2018

househoppin09 wrote:
30 Jul 2018
selig wrote:
19 Jul 2018
Requesting 32 bit float files is just the latest incarnation of mastering engineers saying to keep 3-6 dB headroom on mixes, obviously from past experience with folks who clipped their mixes despite begin told not to do so.
That's an interesting comment, selig, and seems to be consistent with the blog post that was linked upthread: https://theproaudiofiles.com/6-db-headr ... explained/

Is there, in fact, any actual reason to bother shooting for 3-6 dB of headroom on a mix? Even when the mastering engineer explicitly asks for that much headroom, there's no reason for them to actually care, as long as none of the peaks are getting lost... right? I mean, yes, when using a -12 dB reference level, it's likely that the mix will naturally end up sitting in that -6 to -3 range. But if it ends up outside that range for whatever reason, is there any reason why that would ever be worth bothering to correct for, as long as there's absolutely no clipping occurring?
As a separate question, no there is no other reason.

But maybe you misunderstood my original comment - My suggestion is that there IS a good reason for asking for that much headroom, and it’s likely because when they say “as long as there’s no clipping”, there is still clipping in some cases. Same for asking for 32 bit files, because no matter how many times you say “no clipping”, there will still be clipping by some folks. I’ve seen it myself, and the response has been “but there was only a clip or two” or similar.

There would be no other reason besides clipping for an ME to ask for 32 bit files, and likely no other logical reason to ask for 3-6 dB headroom.
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chaosroyale
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31 Jul 2018

Just to reiterate that 32-bit export IS the workaround. Basically it is "idiot insurance" for audio files that have been exported much much much too hot. Bear in mind that 24-bit files already have a signal-to-noise ratio of about 144dB, enough to record the full dynamic range of an orchestra and still have 30dB of headroom before clipping. Of course no playback system comes close to that performance, unless maybe you have a spare Saturn V engine as a speaker cone.

For any non-professionals worrying about the sound quality of your files, 16 bit 44.1 lossless is enough for playback in any real-world environment, and 24 bit is enough for professional use as long as you leave enough headroom. 32-bit float is for calculations inside DAWs and for when you can't trust the mixing engineer not to be drunk.

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selig
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31 Jul 2018

chaosroyale wrote:
31 Jul 2018
Just to reiterate that 32-bit export IS the workaround. Basically it is "idiot insurance" for audio files that have been exported much much much too hot. Bear in mind that 24-bit files already have a signal-to-noise ratio of about 144dB, enough to record the full dynamic range of an orchestra and still have 30dB of headroom before clipping. Of course no playback system comes close to that performance, unless maybe you have a spare Saturn V engine as a speaker cone.

For any non-professionals worrying about the sound quality of your files, 16 bit 44.1 lossless is enough for playback in any real-world environment, and 24 bit is enough for professional use as long as you leave enough headroom. 32-bit float is for calculations inside DAWs and for when you can't trust the mixing engineer not to be drunk.
Well said - also worth noting the dynamic range of a 24 bit audio files exceeds the threshold of pain for humans, assuming you set your levels so you can hear the quietest signals (and assuming you are listening in an anechoic environment).

Going beyond that (while tempting in some cases) simply doesn’t make much sense!
;)
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househoppin09
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31 Jul 2018

selig wrote:
31 Jul 2018
househoppin09 wrote:
30 Jul 2018


That's an interesting comment, selig, and seems to be consistent with the blog post that was linked upthread: https://theproaudiofiles.com/6-db-headr ... explained/

Is there, in fact, any actual reason to bother shooting for 3-6 dB of headroom on a mix? Even when the mastering engineer explicitly asks for that much headroom, there's no reason for them to actually care, as long as none of the peaks are getting lost... right? I mean, yes, when using a -12 dB reference level, it's likely that the mix will naturally end up sitting in that -6 to -3 range. But if it ends up outside that range for whatever reason, is there any reason why that would ever be worth bothering to correct for, as long as there's absolutely no clipping occurring?
As a separate question, no there is no other reason.

But maybe you misunderstood my original comment - My suggestion is that there IS a good reason for asking for that much headroom, and it’s likely because when they say “as long as there’s no clipping”, there is still clipping in some cases. Same for asking for 32 bit files, because no matter how many times you say “no clipping”, there will still be clipping by some folks. I’ve seen it myself, and the response has been “but there was only a clip or two” or similar.

There would be no other reason besides clipping for an ME to ask for 32 bit files, and likely no other logical reason to ask for 3-6 dB headroom.
Thanks for the confirmation on that. I did understand your original comment; my focus here isn't so much on "what's the point of asking for so much headroom" from the mastering engineer's perspective, because that certainly makes sense. It's kind of like setting the speed limit to 55 mph so that people will hopefully keep it under 75 mph, right? ;) My focus is on the question of "do I really need to leave that much headroom", from the mixing/production side. Sounds like the answer is a pretty firm no, as common sense would suggest. In my own productions, if I'm diligent about making sure my mixes aren't clipping in any way, shape, or form, there's really no particular advantage to staying in that -6 to -3 range, right? (Leaving aside that it happens naturally when using ideal reference levels, etc.)

chaosroyale wrote:
31 Jul 2018
Just to reiterate that 32-bit export IS the workaround. Basically it is "idiot insurance" for audio files that have been exported much much much too hot. Bear in mind that 24-bit files already have a signal-to-noise ratio of about 144dB, enough to record the full dynamic range of an orchestra and still have 30dB of headroom before clipping. Of course no playback system comes close to that performance, unless maybe you have a spare Saturn V engine as a speaker cone.

For any non-professionals worrying about the sound quality of your files, 16 bit 44.1 lossless is enough for playback in any real-world environment, and 24 bit is enough for professional use as long as you leave enough headroom. 32-bit float is for calculations inside DAWs and for when you can't trust the mixing engineer not to be drunk.
Well said! This is a clear and wonderfully concise way to look at it (not to mention hilarious, I can't wait for Saturn V engines to start showing up on Reverb.com). Out of curiosity, what's your take on when 16-bit wouldn't be enough for professional use? I've found that, assuming proper dithering, the truncation only seems to matter with material that has a massive emphasis on very quiet acoustic passages, and even then the difference is subtle enough that nothing too terrible happens at 16-bit. It may not be ideal, but I find 16-bit broadly usable even for professional purposes. Interested in any thoughts you (or anyone) might have on that.

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selig
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31 Jul 2018

househoppin09 wrote:
31 Jul 2018
selig wrote:
31 Jul 2018


As a separate question, no there is no other reason.

But maybe you misunderstood my original comment - My suggestion is that there IS a good reason for asking for that much headroom, and it’s likely because when they say “as long as there’s no clipping”, there is still clipping in some cases. Same for asking for 32 bit files, because no matter how many times you say “no clipping”, there will still be clipping by some folks. I’ve seen it myself, and the response has been “but there was only a clip or two” or similar.

There would be no other reason besides clipping for an ME to ask for 32 bit files, and likely no other logical reason to ask for 3-6 dB headroom.
Thanks for the confirmation on that. I did understand your original comment; my focus here isn't so much on "what's the point of asking for so much headroom" from the mastering engineer's perspective, because that certainly makes sense. It's kind of like setting the speed limit to 55 mph so that people will hopefully keep it under 75 mph, right? ;) My focus is on the question of "do I really need to leave that much headroom", from the mixing/production side. Sounds like the answer is a pretty firm no, as common sense would suggest. In my own productions, if I'm diligent about making sure my mixes aren't clipping in any way, shape, or form, there's really no particular advantage to staying in that -6 to -3 range, right? (Leaving aside that it happens naturally when using ideal reference levels, etc.)
You can be diligent and spend the time required to get very close to clipping without going over, or you can just mix and enjoy the artistic part and leave a few dB headroom. I choose the latter, leaving about 3 dB on a typical mix. Sure I could go the extra mile for the extra dB, but honestly I can’t justify it - what’s the advantage?

If you consider that with any random elements such as reverbs or free running LFOs, the levels can vary from one pass to the next by a dB or two, it’s not a bad idea to leave at least 2-3 dB headroom on mixes IMO. Even when using a brick wall limiter, I still leave at least 0.5 dB. So unless you’re going totally nuts with “loudness wars” type of mixing/mastering, the extra time and attention it takes to ensure your mix absolutely will not clip is something we each have to choose to commit to or not. :)
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househoppin09
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31 Jul 2018

Indeed. Very sensible, as usual. :)

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demt
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01 Aug 2018

Come on eatch 2 there own and I can use 32 bit even if it's just to stay compatible with everybody else pushing it to the max cheers up my computer as not mutch stretches it attitude of mind even
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02 Aug 2018

commas are elusive in modern grammer
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JunkMaster
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25 Aug 2018

Hoping this will be added to the list of upcoming features for future versions of Reason.

Someone described it as a somewhat "idiot-proof" option and as most (if not all, by now) DAWs work in at least 32 bit FP (some @ 64 bit FP), the option should ideally be available for those that would like this option. Maybe because that is their preferred format for exporting or for archiving purposes.

For mastering, most MEs request or require at least 24 bit files, some prefer 32 bit so in this case would need someone to up-convert from 24 bit after exporting in Reason rather than 'natively' export the audio at 32 bit.

SO Prime is a free DAW (albeit based on the paid-for Professional version) that has 32 bit float as an export option as does the free open-source LMMS and I'm sure there are others.

I agree it is not necessary and probably not a priority for Prop at the moment but I also think that by now, it should be an available option.

jlgrimes
Posts: 661
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27 Aug 2018

selig wrote:
31 Jul 2018
chaosroyale wrote:
31 Jul 2018
Just to reiterate that 32-bit export IS the workaround. Basically it is "idiot insurance" for audio files that have been exported much much much too hot. Bear in mind that 24-bit files already have a signal-to-noise ratio of about 144dB, enough to record the full dynamic range of an orchestra and still have 30dB of headroom before clipping. Of course no playback system comes close to that performance, unless maybe you have a spare Saturn V engine as a speaker cone.

For any non-professionals worrying about the sound quality of your files, 16 bit 44.1 lossless is enough for playback in any real-world environment, and 24 bit is enough for professional use as long as you leave enough headroom. 32-bit float is for calculations inside DAWs and for when you can't trust the mixing engineer not to be drunk.
Well said - also worth noting the dynamic range of a 24 bit audio files exceeds the threshold of pain for humans, assuming you set your levels so you can hear the quietest signals (and assuming you are listening in an anechoic environment).

Going beyond that (while tempting in some cases) simply doesn’t make much sense!
;)
Ah beautiful 24 bit audio.

Hurts so good!

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