Hydlides rant about performance

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EnochLight
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05 Jul 2018

antic604 wrote:
05 Jul 2018
EnochLight wrote:
05 Jul 2018
Multi-core Xeon's have been out for many, many years, and using them in a dual-CPU motherboard to obtain upwards of 16 cores/32 threads was not uncommon (the E5 2670 can be found dirt cheap these days). I would wager that studios have used this configuration before.
True, but maybe the architectural shift that Randy mentioned makes all the difference?
Perhaps someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not unlike how dual-CPU motherboards operate.
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normen
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05 Jul 2018

RandyEspoda wrote:
05 Jul 2018
normen wrote:
05 Jul 2018

One additional comment - those multi-core (10-16 core i9) CPUs are quite a new thing and I remember when iMac Pros were released few months back a lot of software had real problems using those "extra" cores, compared to more standard setups of 4-8 cores - I believe Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro X had to be patched. For example Studio One only recently - in recently released v4 - improved handling of multi-core processors as well, so it's not like only Reason has problem adjusting to the new, "super-wide" coding paradigm. Again, I'm not defending it because I fight with this on a daily basis in my hobbyist music making, I'm "just saying" this to provide a more balanced picture.
This right here. THeir multi-core code is indeed outdated it seems, and seems like it was a rush job indeed, as stated in the beginning of the thread somewhere. Seems like where the situation arises where multiple cores are handed the same load, there should have been additional coding to prevent it, extra subroutines or whatever, I'm no coder but what was said a few pages back did make sense as to it seeming like a rushed job at the time...they need to update it for the newest architecture.

Because the exact issue is the new architecture of those 10+ core chips. The difference with say a 4-core is that all the cores no longer sit on the SAME die, in stead they use a mesh configuration on the die to separate them, where half of the cores would need to address the other half to receive instructions, because half of them are no longer 'directly' addressable. It's the 'way' in which they work opposed to the older 2/4/6 core architecture worked. Off course props hadn't calculated that in at the time, they couldn't have known. But NOW ? They need to wake up and fix it, because, like hydlide mentioned, in a couple of years that IS going to become a serious issue.
Imo it is very likely that it is purely because of this new 'mesh' architecture of 8+ core cpus that makes multicore no longer being executed efficiently in the case of such cpus inside Reason...
Sorry - just want to make clear that I didn't write that quote you put my name to above. All of what both of you wrote is half-true and zero-relevant for Reason or any DAW really.

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MarkTarlton
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05 Jul 2018

RandyEspoda wrote:
05 Jul 2018

There is only one word needed to describe the phenomenon : EGO
truth! combining music/art, and the alpha male ego can be a real pain in the ass! :)

I definitely have performance issues with reason, and it's easy for me to compare/contrast when using multiple tools/daws. I don't care too much about all the technical understanding...I just want to make music and not be limited to some old school practices, I agree with hydlide/edwin on performance and think something should be done to fix it.

RandyEspoda
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05 Jul 2018

normen wrote:
05 Jul 2018

Sorry - just want to make clear that I didn't write that quote you put my name to above. All of what both of you wrote is half-true and zero-relevant for Reason or any DAW really.
Apologies Normen, I deleted the wrong one there.
As for what I mentioned, it definitely is due to the new architecture of cpus with cores situated on a mesh...older dual and quads never had that.
Coincidentally it is specifically those cpus that are having these issues in reason these days...

RandyEspoda
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05 Jul 2018

antic604 wrote:
05 Jul 2018
RandyEspoda wrote:
05 Jul 2018
The difference with say a 4-core is that all the cores no longer sit on the SAME die, in stead they use a mesh configuration on the die to separate them, where half of the cores would need to address the other half to receive instructions, because half of them are no longer 'directly' addressable.
That's a very interesting piece of info. Thanks!

BTW, the paragraph you quoted was mine, not Normen's
Yes I have been pointed to it. My mistake.

RandyEspoda
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05 Jul 2018

antic604 wrote:
05 Jul 2018
EnochLight wrote:
05 Jul 2018
Multi-core Xeon's have been out for many, many years, and using them in a dual-CPU motherboard to obtain upwards of 16 cores/32 threads was not uncommon (the E5 2670 can be found dirt cheap these days). I would wager that studios have used this configuration before.
True, but maybe the architectural shift that Randy mentioned makes all the difference?
I could be wrong here for sure, but from what I've read about it, it makes perfect sense.

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O1B
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05 Jul 2018

- Superpop
Any info on this ... a link? Because.... that would be just wonderful.
superpop wrote:
04 Jul 2018
PH never antecipate a thing but they said
its gonna be a free update to improve performance.

Thats why I have faith. I bet PH will surprise us again.
And Hydlides seems to be a nice guy.
After 4 pages,

- 6 members reject Hydlide's causality.
- 19 members chimed in that there is a problem that they can detect in their own system
Image
OTHER
- 3 members wishes that Hydride would do "other" videos
- 6 members felt the need to address that EL situation.

Honorable Mention

- God of Rainbows. Thank you.
- Modeca. Man, I'm still crackin' up on that one. Tears are rolling, but I'm laughing.

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EnochLight
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05 Jul 2018

:roll:
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superpop
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05 Jul 2018

“So, what about performance?” I hear you ask. We are aware of some performance issues with VSTs, and trust me, we’re working hard to adress them. Good news is it’s going really well! But it’s a complex project that requires lots of time for testing. I can’t give you a date at the moment, but this performance optimization will be available as a free update for all Reason 10 owners later this year. Meanwhile, I hope you’ll enjoy everything that Reason 10.1 has to offer!

https://www.propellerheads.se/blog/reason-101-is-here


O1B wrote:
05 Jul 2018
- Superpop
Any info on this ... a link? Because.... that would be just wonderful.
superpop wrote:
04 Jul 2018
PH never antecipate a thing but they said
its gonna be a free update to improve performance.

Thats why I have faith. I bet PH will surprise us again.
And Hydlides seems to be a nice guy.

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O1B
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05 Jul 2018

Boom! Sweet! Thank you.

An "acknowledgement" of the Problem is typically the first STEP.
And, thank you, Mattias!!

BTW, I never noticed - until now - that Europa has a Verbos feel to it...
I love me some 'Scan and Pan.' And, I gotta try their :
Image

Image

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P'elle
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05 Jul 2018

I'm here for a medal of participation please.

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EnochLight
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05 Jul 2018

P'elle wrote:
05 Jul 2018
I'm here for a medal of participation please.
You have won the Internetz!
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xylyx
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06 Jul 2018

I haven't watched the video but I have had issues with CPU usage since v9.5. My computer isn't the newest (i7-4700MQ with 8gb) but I seem to hit the ceiling with my DSP way too early. I have a project in S1v4 that runs at around 16% CPU and wanted to continue working on it in Reason, as I generally find I can make quicker progress in Reason - without even completing the import of all the tracks, Reason is hitting 60-70% which rapidly causes the CPU's temperature to spike and then throttling ensues and everything just becomes a mess of audio breakups.

The buffer for my soundcard is set to it's highest, otherwise things go awry even quicker. I have tried all the combinations of multicore and hyperthreading options to no avail, plus various Windows tweaks and even tried undervolting my CPU to try and improve things, with no success. I struggled to finish my entry to the Noise Engineering compo, as Reason was hitting the point where my processor starts throttling and that was with only 10 tracks of the Noise Engineering REs.

I am considering building myself a much higher specced desktop system, even though I would be stretching my finances to do so, but considering that others have much better systems and still hit issues, I'm not sure whether it would achieve what I want. The current problems I have are really killing the creative flow...I guess I could just use S1 but there are a number of midi REs that I use that would be difficult to find (if at all) in VST. Otherwise, it's just waiting for the next Reason update and hoping that resolves the problems but we have no idea how long that is going to be before it is released...

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EnochLight
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06 Jul 2018

xylyx wrote:
06 Jul 2018
Otherwise, it's just waiting for the next Reason update and hoping that resolves the problems but we have no idea how long that is going to be before it is released...
As linked to earlier in this thread, the free update to address VST performance issues is supposed to be released "later this year" (2018). So, basically it could be any day between now and December 31st. :D

viewtopic.php?p=401695#p401695
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mon
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06 Jul 2018

I have performance issues too. My computer is nothing special by today’s standards but I use other DAWs too with some high quality plugins and I never had such problems with them. In Reason every project is a fight for resources. I don’t use VSTs except one instance of Reference. In almost every project I use only instruments made by Propellerhead. Since I started messing with audio software more than 20 years ago, I developed habits for optimizing my projects to be as easy on the system as possible without sacrificing quality and options... well with Reason 10 it feels almost as difficult as it was with version 1 on my 300MHz Celeron back in 2001. I hope that the guys at Propellerhead are working on the optimization of this otherwise wonderful creative environment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by mon on 06 Jul 2018, edited 1 time in total.
:reason: 10+
:recycle: :re: :refillpacker:

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xylyx
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06 Jul 2018

EnochLight wrote:
06 Jul 2018

As linked to earlier in this thread, the free update to address VST performance issues is supposed to be released "later this year" (2018). So, basically it could be any day between now and December 31st. :D
Yup, that was my point: if it's another 4 months until we see the update, it is a long time for me to deal with constantly hitting the limits of my CPU with Reason :cry:

Anyway, I may just go ahead and get a new system. Hopefully, an i7-8700 with 16gb memory will be enough to see the issues stop being issues! :)

seqoi
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07 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
05 Jul 2018

You guys make things much better with those comments and this bashing. :thumbs_up:
Adding head in sand won't make problems go away. At least not in my experience. We have to talk about these problems. They are real. No disrespect intended ! I truly want this place to be better or at least not to spin down.

Cheers


edit: for people which are concerned and are not visiting this place everyday - Propellerheads are well aware of these CPU issues (so to speak) and they are working on fix which should arrive sometimes this year. They said that, it's their official statement. Give them a fair chance and take in account that this is their first venture in VST hosting. I am sure they will deliver it.

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O1B
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08 Jul 2018



oh... and,

seqoi wrote:
07 Jul 2018
Loque wrote:
05 Jul 2018

You guys make things much better with those comments and this bashing. :thumbs_up:
Adding head in sand won't make problems go away. At least not in my experience. We have to talk about these problems. They are real. No disrespect intended ! I truly want this place to be better or at least not to spin down.

Cheers


edit: for people which are concerned and are not visiting this place everyday - Propellerheads are well aware of these CPU issues (so to speak) and they are working on fix which should arrive sometimes this year. They said that, it's their official statement. Give them a fair chance and take in account that this is their first venture in VST hosting. I am sure they will deliver it.

seqoi
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08 Jul 2018

O1B wrote:
08 Jul 2018


oh... and,



I did not watched videos but i truly don't understand what these videos has to do with my reports for people which are visiting this forum rarely (you quote my post where i said to people that PH is aware of this). I genuinely don't understand what these videos has to do with it? Is it a language barrier thing ( most of the times my english is awesomely bad ) ?

edit: i see first video. Hand beating. I don't get it. It's very funny though. Which movie?

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EnochLight
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08 Jul 2018

seqoi wrote:
08 Jul 2018
I did not watched videos but i truly don't understand what these videos has to do with my reports for people which are visiting this forum rarely (you quote my post where i said to people that PH is aware of this). I genuinely don't understand what these videos has to do with it? Is it a language barrier thing ( most of the times my english is awesomely bad ) ?

edit: i see first video. Hand beating. I don't get it. It's very funny though. Which movie?
No, you’re completely right. It’s not a language barrier thing. The videos have nothing to do with it. O1B tends to do things like that.

And for the record, I appreciated your post earlier.
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O1B
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08 Jul 2018

Seqio's 'language barrier' aside...

Image
"How Dare YOU"

That was for you, Enoch Light.
Still no Apology, Enoch Light?

Peace, Enoch Light.
EnochLight wrote:
08 Jul 2018
seqoi wrote:
08 Jul 2018
I did not watched videos but i truly don't understand what these videos has to do with my reports for people which are visiting this forum rarely (you quote my post where i said to people that PH is aware of this). I genuinely don't understand what these videos has to do with it? Is it a language barrier thing ( most of the times my english is awesomely bad ) ?

edit: i see first video. Hand beating. I don't get it. It's very funny though. Which movie?
No, you’re completely right. It’s not a language barrier thing. The videos have nothing to do with it. O1B tends to do things like that.

And for the record, I appreciated your post earlier.

jimmyklane
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08 Jul 2018

RandyEspoda wrote:
05 Jul 2018
normen wrote:
05 Jul 2018

Sorry - just want to make clear that I didn't write that quote you put my name to above. All of what both of you wrote is half-true and zero-relevant for Reason or any DAW really.
Apologies Normen, I deleted the wrong one there.
As for what I mentioned, it definitely is due to the new architecture of cpus with cores situated on a mesh...older dual and quads never had that.
Coincidentally it is specifically those cpus that are having these issues in reason these days...
Is this why my old i7 2600 (which admittedly is water cooled and seriously OC’ed) has zero problems? I’ll be the first to admit that I use an awful lot of hardware and therefore have far less CPU-loading to worry about, but people here are saying they can’t run 15 instances of Europa which is insane. I can run far more than that at 88.2kHz....and I’m on an old computer. Makes no sense.


As to the posters that mentioned dual-CPU boards, my first commercial studio ran a dual Opteron configuration and never had a hiccup despite the slower ECC RAM that was required....interesting discussion.


In closing, I feel like people run into problems when using heavy REs or VSTs....is there perhaps flawed logic here? PH instruments have ALWAYS been super light on CPU in my personal experience.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

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normen
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08 Jul 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
08 Jul 2018
Is this why my old i7 2600 (which admittedly is water cooled and seriously OC’ed) has zero problems? I’ll be the first to admit that I use an awful lot of hardware and therefore have far less CPU-loading to worry about, but people here are saying they can’t run 15 instances of Europa which is insane. I can run far more than that at 88.2kHz....and I’m on an old computer. Makes no sense.


As to the posters that mentioned dual-CPU boards, my first commercial studio ran a dual Opteron configuration and never had a hiccup despite the slower ECC RAM that was required....interesting discussion.


In closing, I feel like people run into problems when using heavy REs or VSTs....is there perhaps flawed logic here? PH instruments have ALWAYS been super light on CPU in my personal experience.
As I assume you're actually interested.. The problem with VSTs and Reason is mainly that Reason runs all plugins at 64 samples buffer size internally - this is so that modulation between plugins can happen with high frequency (every 64 samples a CV or automation value can change). Reason just works like that internally since ever because it makes sense if you do a lot of inter-modulation (i.e. CV connections). The Props also code with that in mind so their instruments work well in that context.

So now theres VSTs in the mix. What is a VST essentially? At it's core it's a "method" (programmer talk) that is repeatedly called and given a bunch of samples to process to apply it's effect. So when most other DAWs are reading 256 samples from the audio interface then they are also feeding 256 samples in one step to the plugin. Reason in turn calls the plugin method FOUR times with 64 samples each and adjusts the parameters in between.

So depending on what the plugin does when it's called this can suddenly become a very heavy process. Take for example the UAD plugins - each time the method is called the UAD has to make a PCI connection to the UAD hardware, send those 64 samples over the PCI bus, process them on the DSP and receive them back. You can imagine that this is even slower when you do it 4 x 64 instead of 1 x 256. However for many algorithms it doesn't make much difference if you do it 4 x 64 or 1 x 256, that's the plugins that run great in Reason.

On top of that theres the issue with "CPU efficiency" and DSP load (which is what most people read when using their DAW) - DSP load is not cpu load. The DSP load of a plugin can rise because of many things, not just because of "CPU efficiency" - I made a video about this pet peeve topic of mine, which is very relevant here:



...hope this helps to understand the situation - you simply have a very well built and configured machine :)

jimmyklane
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Joined: 16 Apr 2018

08 Jul 2018

normen wrote:
08 Jul 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
08 Jul 2018
Is this why my old i7 2600 (which admittedly is water cooled and seriously OC’ed) has zero problems? I’ll be the first to admit that I use an awful lot of hardware and therefore have far less CPU-loading to worry about, but people here are saying they can’t run 15 instances of Europa which is insane. I can run far more than that at 88.2kHz....and I’m on an old computer. Makes no sense.


As to the posters that mentioned dual-CPU boards, my first commercial studio ran a dual Opteron configuration and never had a hiccup despite the slower ECC RAM that was required....interesting discussion.


In closing, I feel like people run into problems when using heavy REs or VSTs....is there perhaps flawed logic here? PH instruments have ALWAYS been super light on CPU in my personal experience.
As I assume you're actually interested.. The problem with VSTs and Reason is mainly that Reason runs all plugins at 64 samples buffer size internally - this is so that modulation between plugins can happen with high frequency (every 64 samples a CV or automation value can change). Reason just works like that internally since ever because it makes sense if you do a lot of inter-modulation (i.e. CV connections). The Props also code with that in mind so their instruments work well in that context.

So now theres VSTs in the mix. What is a VST essentially? At it's core it's a "method" (programmer talk) that is repeatedly called and given a bunch of samples to process to apply it's effect. So when most other DAWs are reading 256 samples from the audio interface then they are also feeding 256 samples in one step to the plugin. Reason in turn calls the plugin method FOUR times with 64 samples each and adjusts the parameters in between.

So depending on what the plugin does when it's called this can suddenly become a very heavy process. Take for example the UAD plugins - each time the method is called the UAD has to make a PCI connection to the UAD hardware, send those 64 samples over the PCI bus, process them on the DSP and receive them back. You can imagine that this is even slower when you do it 4 x 64 instead of 1 x 256

On top of that theres the issue with "CPU efficiency" and DSP load (which is what most people read when using their DAW) - DSP load is not cpu load. The DSP load of a plugin can rise because of many things, not just because of "CPU efficiency" - I made a video about this pet peeve topic of mine, which is very relevant here:



...hope this helps to understand the situation :)
I have watched your very excellent video when you first posted it. Thank you for making it. I *DO* understand the difference between DSP and CPU cycles, and the 64 sample chunks (SR/64)/2=maximum frequency of CV modulation, or just over 344Hz at most people’s standard of 44.1kHz.....it’s why I insist upon running Reason at 88.2. That doubling of CV frequency allows things like Pulsar’s maximum rate to be somewhat meaningful....freaking out MIDI CCs at audio-rate and then sampling the unpredictable results is a pastime of mine.... what I’m wondering is if PH can even DO something like calling VSTs at the buffer size while still calling internal instruments at 64 samples. I’m not proficient enough with coding to know if running VSTs at some multiple of 64 samples (like your example of 256) would be possible while maintaining the speed of CV for internal devices. It may come down to an “efficiency vs speed” slider setting in the DAW.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

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normen
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08 Jul 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
08 Jul 2018
what I’m wondering is if PH can even DO something like calling VSTs at the buffer size while still calling internal instruments at 64 samples. I’m not proficient enough with coding to know if running VSTs at some multiple of 64 samples (like your example of 256) would be possible while maintaining the speed of CV for internal devices. It may come down to an “efficiency vs speed” slider setting in the DAW.
Exactly that is what I suggest would be the easiest "fix" for certain VSTs. Allow setting a separate buffer size for either all VSTs, single VSTs or even single VST instances. In terms of ramifications you'd always have delay and a "quantization" of sorts for the CV of the VST(s) and depending on the situation you'd have a certain additional audio delay when using that VST live. Then of course CV would not work properly for all plugins, buses etc. where the VST is routed to either, so from each VST on it's problems :/

It's a bit ugly to program (afaics) and imo also a bit ugly to handle as a user - interested to see what the props do about it. They could try and invoke the "unusual signal flow detection" of the mix channel PDC. Then Reason could "automagically" set VSTs that have "normal" signal flow (no CV) to buffer size and those that have CV to 64 samples.

All in all thats why to me VST integration always was shoehorning something onto Reason that just doesn't fit there. So I was one of those "Props excusing anti-VST idiots" because I KNEW that this would be the outcome. VST in Reason can be fun - if you don't try and use it to send your audio to a PCI based DSP card or wire a whole different sampling system into Reason :roll:
Last edited by normen on 08 Jul 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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