Hydlides rant about performance

[FLVZ]

Man, I understand diversity and all, but we have some truly absurd personalities around here. And that just seems to be on the rise. Starting to feel toxic around these parts (the most surprising part is that I feel it more so from long time members). Think it's time to give RT a rest. Been fun while it lasted, but before I go, one final piece of advice to all parties on all sides: in the name of all that is holy on the interwebs, you do not have to reply to every comment. It's important to be right. It's even more important to know when to be right.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Namyo85]

Hydlide rocks! That's all I have to say on the subject. Now everybody calm down! Lol.

[selig]

For the Record, I Love Hydlide. How 'bout dat.

For the record.... 'Hydlide HATES US'

I dont echo them... neither does a LOT of responders here.

Nix the moral high ground, Selig. You don't have that position in this topic.
And, its obvious that bringing up someone's WIFE BOTHERS readers
- as, it's been brought up by at least 4 different Men.

I assure you, for most men, in REAL LIFE, this would lead to a serious misunderstadning.
But, you go on with your internet tough guy routine - 'what the f'- and normalize attacks - sorry - brining up people's family.

What goes around.

Im out of this thread. Hydlide has spoken.

I’m not taking the moral high ground, I’m being a moderator. Time to end this now, everyone.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk

[Oquasec]

He makes sense. HE has experience. He has brains.
Not much else to say.

[rgdaniel]

I don't really have a dog in the performance fight, as my i7-4770 processor (and system in general) is pretty well behaved, knock wood. And while I found Hydlide a VERY acquired taste -- his accent is challenging for me, took me weeks to even figure out what he says at the very beginning of his videos, and sometimes his attitude is off-putting -- but jeez, anybody who is producing DAILY Reason content on YouTube (compared to most other content creators who produce at a rate of slightly more than once every never ) should be regarded as an international superstar.

[mind2069]

Funny to read this, I was thinking the same thing that it was inappropriate to talk about his wife

I did not post about it because it would of derailed the thread but now i'm writing just to let know that you were not wrong or alone in saying that it was inappropriate to mention his wife in the context of his response.

I felt it was passive / aggressive / ironical or something like that because he was saying just before in defence of PH that they were working on the issue and said (Did he really need to dedicate a whole video to this), pretty sure considering the 2 previous statements before the wife reference, it was not said in good heart, just my feeling. Sure he will never admit it and will probably say he was really sincere witch I personally don't believe, maybe i'm wrong, not a big deal.

There is nothing wrong expressing about concern for his wife, for goodness sake, and it is certainly not inappropriate on any level as long as it’s within the forum guidelines. We all know about his wife’s situation, he’s the one who made it public, and I imagine we all want the best for her.

And if it’s not a big deal to you, I suggest just not posting next time please!


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk

I did not expect such an emotional response from a moderator : (And if it’s not a big deal to you, I suggest just not posting next time please!)

I guess you have to have the backs of your prefered members. Maybe im wrong

My answer was clear, respecful and justified of why I have reserves about the wife since apparently not the only one bringing it up.

Really. Not being able to post in a respecful way that Flavolous was not the only one that felt it was inapropriate to bring the wife in this thread must remain silent.

You saw EnochLigth post in a way and I (and others) saw it in another way. Since its is different than you. Im the one that has to remain silent.

"Props have already said they’re working on performance, and will release an update to address it. Did he really need to dedicate a whole video to this? I guess his wife is doing OK (which is nice to hear)?" basically translate to : Hydlides has nothing better to do than making this pointless video, i guess his wife is doing better. The fact that the wife's situation was public knowledge is completely irrelevant.

If I was disrecpectful in raising a concern, point to me where exactly, if I was wrong in my assumption, wich we will never really know, I apologize.

Its not like I've been on this subject for a while, I saw Flavolous post and shared and explained why I felt the sameway

Wheres your sense of impartiality as a moderator. I guess power does corrupt.

[selig]

There is nothing wrong expressing about concern for his wife, for goodness sake, and it is certainly not inappropriate on any level as long as it’s within the forum guidelines. We all know about his wife’s situation, he’s the one who made it public, and I imagine we all want the best for her.

And if it’s not a big deal to you, I suggest just not posting next time please!


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk

I did not expect such an emotional response from a moderator : (And if it’s not a big deal to you, I suggest just not posting next time please!)

I guess you have to have the backs of your prefered members. Maybe im wrong

My answer was clear, respecful and justified of why I have reserves about the wife since apparently not the only one bringing it up.

Really. Not being able to post in a respecful way that Flavolous was not the only one that felt it was inapropriate to bring the wife in this thread must remain silent.

You saw EnochLigth post in a way and I (and others) saw it in another way. Since its is different than you. Im the one that has to remain silent.

"Props have already said they’re working on performance, and will release an update to address it. Did he really need to dedicate a whole video to this? I guess his wife is doing OK (which is nice to hear)?" basically translate to : Hydlides has nothing better to do than making this pointless video, i guess his wife is doing better. The fact that the wife's situation was public knowledge is completely irrelevant.

If I was disrecpectful in raising a concern, point to me where exactly, if I was wrong in my assumption, wich we will never really know, I apologize.

Its not like I've been on this subject for a while, I saw Flavolous post and shared and explained why I felt the sameway

Wheres your sense of impartiality as a moderator. I guess power does corrupt.

Oh gawd, not that old trope again. Emotional response? Did I miss something?

I showed no impartiality, no one was banned, no one was even warned for goodness sake. And no one was disrespectful until your post above.

Just trying to do my job here - if you really feel you have valid points about my so-called impartially and corruption, please take it to Kenni and keep it out of this thread.

[superpop]

PUF days?

What to say... PH are strange people so everything from them is different.

No standard approach.

Reason, Record, Reason and Record, Reason, Rack Extension, unsaleable REs, Never VST, VST is here, the authorization, the manual hyperthread control, the Europa user sample, to change the theme you need to close the app, but no theme for the mixer,...

PH never antecipate a thing but they said its gonna be a free update to improve performance.

Thats why I have faith. I bet PH will surprise us again.

And Hydlides seems to be a nice guy.

[raymondh]

I have a suggestion. Anyone who wants to comment further on aspects not directly related to the topic, send private messages to the person involved, rather than polluting the thread when 99% of users aren't interested in the side conversations anyway.

From time to time, everyone makes the mistake of posting something that in hindsight wasn't helpful. As a community the best thing we can do is let it go and move on. (PM them if you must burst into print)

Back on topic, this thread makes me feel a lot happier I'm not missing out on too much by staying with my old i7 2600k

[aeox]

I have a suggestion. Anyone who wants to comment further on aspects not directly related to the topic, send private messages to the person involved, rather than polluting the thread when 99% of users aren't interested in the side conversations anyway.

From time to time, everyone makes the mistake of posting something that in hindsight wasn't helpful. As a community the best thing we can do is let it go and move on. (PM them if you must burst into print)

Back on topic, this thread makes me feel a lot happier I'm not missing out on too much by staying with my old i7 2600k

I have an equally old cpu and don't have a ton of issues with 32 threads. I think the percentage usages from task manager and hwmonitor can be misleading. It's better to do an actual field test IMO.

[fotizimo]

Man, I understand diversity and all, but we have some truly absurd personalities around here. And that just seems to be on the rise. Starting to feel toxic around these parts (the most surprising part is that I feel it more so from long time members). Think it's time to give RT a rest. Been fun while it lasted, but before I go, one final piece of advice to all parties on all sides: in the name of all that is holy on the interwebs, you do not have to reply to every comment. It's important to be right. It's even more important to know when to be right.

This is exactly how I feel.

See, this is my problem as well. I am only hear to learn new Reason things, and learn about the program and making music with it. I am really starting to hate all the other crap that goes with this place. It is so toxic, and it seems most of these threads always go down the same dark paths, until the next new toxic thread comes up. And if the mods stop it, people crap on them for being heavy-handed, but if they leave all the children keep talking, all of the threads get really toxic.

How can there really be so much personal drama about a thread in which a Youtuber discussed technical performance of an application? I feel like KVR is leaking into this place more and more every day. Ugghhh.

Anyone involved in an emotional fight on this place really needs to ask themselves if they do not have something more useful they can be doing with their day other than fighting unknown strangers for nothing more than pissing points.

[TheGodOfRainbows]

I came here to bless this thread and all of its contributors. Go in peace, or i will revoke thine blessing and unleash my wrath upon ye all.

[modecca]

I came here to bless this thread and all of its contributors. Go in peace, or i will revoke thine blessing and unleash my wrath upon ye all.

For me Reasons performance has been too ideal, too smooth and this has prevented the artist struggle that is required for meaningful content.

[aeox]

I came here to bless this thread and all of its contributors. Go in peace, or i will revoke thine blessing and unleash my wrath upon ye all.

For me Reasons performance has been too ideal, too smooth and this has prevented the artist struggle that is required for meaningful content.

[seqoi]

Propellerhead definitely need to address RE and VST performance in Reason, it is quite depressing at times how much worse VST performance is compared to other DAW's.

+1

Not sure why other people are trying to marginalize problems? To those people which say Hydeline opinion is irrelevant because he does not prefer some forum place - that's a joke right?

Reason is known to be absolutely worst when ii comes to VST or multithreading performance.

For Christ sake it is even confirmed by their stuff that there are CPU performance problems. For instance on PC when you are using VST and you enable Hyper Threading CPU usage is drastically worse !!! It should be better but it's worse. It is confirmed by their staff on gearslutz and KVR forum and they told people they will fix that.

At the same time not sure what the fuss is about at leas there on reasontalk people should know better right? We all knew this for quite some time and Mattias from PH said that they are working on a fix which will eventually come by the end of this year and it will not be paid update.


So there it is. What the fuss is about?

[seqoi]

I find this funny, someone states a current problem in Reason, and as usual the usual crowd pop up and say its not an Issue.

Man i was quite stunned when i realized that this is the case on this forum. Actually gobsmacked. I reported VERY detailed CPU issues. There was really constructive opinions but like 80% of them were "naaah not an issue because i don't use VST" or "you are using it wrong" or "don't use it if you have a problem"...or something like that. Mind you i am speaking about problems which which were later confirmed by PH themselves.

But some people here think you are attacking their god ecosystem or something i don't know how to explain it. I really don't.

I came to conclusion that this board is full of immature kids mostly around 13 - 18 years old. And they will mostly prefer only positive opinion. If you report issue they will attack you. What other explanation for that behavior is out there then being immature and young person?

There are normal and very helpful people of course but that's minority - usually you will get some very weird responses. Creepy. I got used by it because this forum is worth it. Well worth it actually. Some developers are here and some seriously talented and nice people which want to help.

[Loque]

I find this funny, someone states a current problem in Reason, and as usual the usual crowd pop up and say its not an Issue.

Man i was quite stunned when i realized that this is the case on this forum. Actually gobsmacked. I reported VERY detailed CPU issues. There was really constructive opinions but like 80% of them were "naaah not an issue because i don't use VST" or "you are using it wrong" or "don't use it if you have a problem"...or something like that. Mind you i am speaking about problems which which were later confirmed by PH themselves.

But some people here think you are attacking their god ecosystem or something i don't know how to explain it. I really don't.

I came to conclusion that this board is full of immature kids mostly around 13 - 18 years old. And they will mostly prefer only positive opinion. If you report issue they will attack you. What other explanation for that behavior is out there then being immature and young person?

There are normal and very helpful people of course but that's minority - usually you will get some very weird responses. Creepy. I got used by it because this forum is worth it. Well worth it actually. Some developers are here and some seriously talented and nice people which want to help.

You guys make things much better with those comments and this bashing.

[antic604]

Wife discussion aside (because it all depends on how one interprets "I guess his wife is doing OK" - whether it's taken as genuine concern with a dash of relief or a stealth jab as to why he's even doing this video, if there are more important things in his life) I think it's a fair point to notice he should've tested it with several instances - and not just one - of Expanse (or whatever instrument) because obviously single audio signal will typically be handled by single core/thread, unless the VST has implemented multi-core/thread internally, of which I'm not even sure REs are capable of. Maybe it's just the Task Manager that is showing it wrong, or maybe if he thrown in 14 instances he'd still see the same DSP utilisation, because the "ghost" DSP that he sees on all cores would be replaced with real ones?

BTW, I'm not saying Reason doesn't have performance problems and quirks - just read my post by the end of 1st page - it's just that before we pass judgement we should be sure our testing methodology is robust.

[normen]

I think it's a fair point to notice he should've tested it with several instances - and not just one - of Expanse (or whatever instrument) because obviously single audio signal will typically be handled by single core/thread, unless the VST has implemented multi-core/thread internally, of which I'm not even sure REs are capable of. Maybe it's just the Task Manager that is showing it wrong, or maybe if he thrown in 14 instances he'd still see the same DSP utilisation, because the "ghost" DSP that he sees on all cores would be replaced with real ones?

This - you don't want a 14-core system to render ONE synth with as few load as possible, you want to run many synths.

OP says the CPU meter shows all cores as "active" with only one synth but that is normal, the "processes" they run take milliseconds (nano even) and they each take a turn when a new process comes in so they all look active within the time frame that the CPU meter measures. REs can use multiple threads no problem but as said, why would you do that if one CPU core runs many synths just fine - it would probably make the synth use MORE CPU just for the communication.

[antic604]

I think it's a fair point to notice he should've tested it with several instances - and not just one - of Expanse (or whatever instrument) because obviously single audio signal will typically be handled by single core/thread, unless the VST has implemented multi-core/thread internally, of which I'm not even sure REs are capable of. Maybe it's just the Task Manager that is showing it wrong, or maybe if he thrown in 14 instances he'd still see the same DSP utilisation, because the "ghost" DSP that he sees on all cores would be replaced with real ones?

This - you don't want a 14-core system to render ONE synth with as few load as possible, you want to run many synths.

OP says the CPU meter shows all cores as "active" with only one synth but that is normal, the "processes" they run take milliseconds (nano even) and they each take a turn when a new process comes in so they all look active within the time frame that the CPU meter measures. REs can use multiple threads no problem but as said, why would you do that if one CPU core runs many synths just fine - it would probably make the synth use MORE CPU just for the communication.

In his newest video Hydlide says he benchmarked his old projects new vs. old PC and "the results were shocking", so I guess we'll see more and I hope we do - I really appreciate his work.

One additional comment - those multi-core (10-16 core i9) CPUs are quite a new thing and I remember when iMac Pros were released few months back a lot of software had real problems using those "extra" cores, compared to more standard setups of 4-8 cores - I believe Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro X had to be patched. For example Studio One only recently - in recently released v4 - improved handling of multi-core processors as well, so it's not like only Reason has problem adjusting to the new, "super-wide" coding paradigm. Again, I'm not defending it because I fight with this on a daily basis in my hobbyist music making, I'm "just saying" this to provide a more balanced picture.

[RandyEspoda]

I find this funny, someone states a current problem in Reason, and as usual the usual crowd pop up and say its not an Issue.

Man i was quite stunned when i realized that this is the case on this forum. Actually gobsmacked. I reported VERY detailed CPU issues. There was really constructive opinions but like 80% of them were "naaah not an issue because i don't use VST" or "you are using it wrong" or "don't use it if you have a problem"...or something like that. Mind you i am speaking about problems which which were later confirmed by PH themselves.

But some people here think you are attacking their god ecosystem or something i don't know how to explain it. I really don't.

I came to conclusion that this board is full of immature kids mostly around 13 - 18 years old. And they will mostly prefer only positive opinion. If you report issue they will attack you. What other explanation for that behavior is out there then being immature and young person?

There are normal and very helpful people of course but that's minority - usually you will get some very weird responses. Creepy. I got used by it because this forum is worth it. Well worth it actually. Some developers are here and some seriously talented and nice people which want to help.

There is only one word needed to describe the phenomenon : EGO
In any case, issues like this should indeed be discussed, as adults, not childishly waved away and obscured and rejected through that 'automatic' impulse coming from what we know is the 'ego' in the mind...kids do not understand yet how the ego can affect one's thought process, and how that affects others. Most do learn the hard way eventually though.

Hydlide is most definitely correct, there is an issue with multicore, and it affects only those having 8+ cores.
Let us not even mention the 'mess' that is HT in Reason, they should just remove that checkbox all together.

And if ppl like hydlide, you, or myself, stop 'sharing' these kinds of issues and experiences, then how would you suggest things get any better in the long run ? What was that ? ...right...

Fortunately, most in here do show understanding and support towards ppl like hydlide, which is really a good thing.

As for his personal life, as is any other's, is one's own business to uphold and ours to 'respect' and prefereably just STFU about.
At least the adults in here can do that for sure. So let's.

[RandyEspoda]

One additional comment - those multi-core (10-16 core i9) CPUs are quite a new thing and I remember when iMac Pros were released few months back a lot of software had real problems using those "extra" cores, compared to more standard setups of 4-8 cores - I believe Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro X had to be patched. For example Studio One only recently - in recently released v4 - improved handling of multi-core processors as well, so it's not like only Reason has problem adjusting to the new, "super-wide" coding paradigm. Again, I'm not defending it because I fight with this on a daily basis in my hobbyist music making, I'm "just saying" this to provide a more balanced picture.

This right here. THeir multi-core code is indeed outdated it seems, and seems like it was a rush job indeed, as stated in the beginning of the thread somewhere. Seems like where the situation arises where multiple cores are handed the same load, there should have been additional coding to prevent it, extra subroutines or whatever, I'm no coder but what was said a few pages back did make sense as to it seeming like a rushed job at the time...they need to update it for the newest architecture.

Because the exact issue is the new architecture of those 10+ core chips. The difference with say a 4-core is that all the cores no longer sit on the SAME die, in stead they use a mesh configuration on the die to separate them, where half of the cores would need to address the other half to receive instructions, because half of them are no longer 'directly' addressable. It's the 'way' in which they work opposed to the older 2/4/6 core architecture worked. Off course props hadn't calculated that in at the time, they couldn't have known. But NOW ? They need to wake up and fix it, because, like hydlide mentioned, in a couple of years that IS going to become a serious issue.
Imo it is very likely that it is purely because of this new 'mesh' architecture of 8+ core cpus that makes multicore no longer being executed efficiently in the case of such cpus inside Reason...

[EnochLight]

One additional comment - those multi-core (10-16 core i9) CPUs are quite a new thing and I remember when iMac Pros were released few months back a lot of software had real problems using those "extra" cores, compared to more standard setups of 4-8 cores - I believe Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro X had to be patched.

Multi-core Xeon's have been out for many, many years, and using them in a dual-CPU motherboard to obtain upwards of 16 cores/32 threads was not uncommon (the E5 2670 can be found dirt cheap these days). I would wager that studios have used this configuration before.

I do look forward to Reason being fixed to handle this more eloquently, though. Clearly something is amiss.

[antic604]

The difference with say a 4-core is that all the cores no longer sit on the SAME die, in stead they use a mesh configuration on the die to separate them, where half of the cores would need to address the other half to receive instructions, because half of them are no longer 'directly' addressable.

That's a very interesting piece of info. Thanks!

BTW, the paragraph you quoted was mine, not Normen's

[antic604]

Multi-core Xeon's have been out for many, many years, and using them in a dual-CPU motherboard to obtain upwards of 16 cores/32 threads was not uncommon (the E5 2670 can be found dirt cheap these days). I would wager that studios have used this configuration before.

True, but maybe the architectural shift that Randy mentioned makes all the difference?