What features are REALLY necessary for Reason 11

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PeterP
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Post 10 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
09 Jan 2019
There is another solution, which I've been suggesting since RECORD came out, and it's based on the fact it's unlikely the Props will abandon the "all in one file" approach: VERSIONS.
Now we're getting into "Revision Control Systems", which incidentally is something I've used a fair bit as software developer over the last few decades :)

I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to implement a custom one inside Reason. How would it compare to something like Perforce, Git, Plastic and the others?

If it was possible to save the Reason project file as XML and all the audio/binary resources in a structured folder hierarchy, then you'd be able to use one of the existing solutions. And besides versions you'd also be able to for example collaborate, branch/merge alternatives, binary search to find problems.

A lot of those systems have decades of features, performance and stability work behind them. That would be hard to match with a brand new implementation.

madmacman
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Post 10 Jan 2019

PeterP wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to implement a custom one inside Reason. How would it compare to something like Perforce, Git, Plastic and the others?

If it was possible to save the Reason project file as XML and all the audio/binary resources in a structured folder hierarchy, then you'd be able to use one of the existing solutions. And besides versions you'd also be able to for example collaborate, branch/merge alternatives, binary search to find problems.
Oh.Please.Dont!

I've been a software engineer for two decades myself, and despite the fact that I use git on a regular basis, I find the concept of commit/push/pull combined with merging and branching a complete PITA (and in our team there's once a month much "fun" when a colleague has shreddered a branch again with a faulty git command)

It's an extremely technical solution - far away from any creative approach. I could teach my wife how to use a DAW, but I could never explain the basic concept of git! For maintaining snapshots in a Reason project, there must be a dead simple solution, mainly two "buttons": STORE (ideally with numerical increment) and RECALL. And I doubt that developing such an overlay for e.g. git would be easier than deriving a simple versioning solution from what already exists inside Reason.

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selig
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Post 10 Jan 2019

PeterP wrote:
10 Jan 2019
selig wrote:
09 Jan 2019
There is another solution, which I've been suggesting since RECORD came out, and it's based on the fact it's unlikely the Props will abandon the "all in one file" approach: VERSIONS.
Now we're getting into "Revision Control Systems", which incidentally is something I've used a fair bit as software developer over the last few decades :)

I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to implement a custom one inside Reason. How would it compare to something like Perforce, Git, Plastic and the others?

If it was possible to save the Reason project file as XML and all the audio/binary resources in a structured folder hierarchy, then you'd be able to use one of the existing solutions. And besides versions you'd also be able to for example collaborate, branch/merge alternatives, binary search to find problems.

A lot of those systems have decades of features, performance and stability work behind them. That would be hard to match with a brand new implementation.
I don't think I was clear - this is not version control software (which I use for my RE development, so I'm familiar with the concept), it's exactly the same as saving "versions" (a studio name for different mixes you must generate for record labels) of a mix at the end of the project or along the way.

This suggestion has actually been implemented in other software since I first suggested it years ago. Check out "Alternatives" in Logic Pro, for example.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ives-logic

It's already how folks work, it's just a faster and more integrated way to achieve these results.
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selig
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Post 10 Jan 2019

madmacman wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Oh.Please.Dont!

I've been a software engineer for two decades myself, and despite the fact that I use git on a regular basis, I find the concept of commit/push/pull combined with merging and branching a complete PITA (and in our team there's once a month much "fun" when a colleague has shreddered a branch again with a faulty git command)

It's an extremely technical solution - far away from any creative approach. I could teach my wife how to use a DAW, but I could never explain the basic concept of git! For maintaining snapshots in a Reason project, there must be a dead simple solution, mainly two "buttons": STORE (ideally with numerical increment) and RECALL. And I doubt that developing such an overlay for e.g. git would be easier than deriving a simple versioning solution from what already exists inside Reason.
I agree - a simple "store/recall" system would be all that's needed - it's basically the same as saving multiple versions of a song and being able to switch between them without having to open/close each version. And more importantly, without having to save the audio all over again with each version.
Selig Audio, LLC

m.arthur
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Post 10 Jan 2019

I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M

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jam-s
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Post 10 Jan 2019

m.arthur wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M
That feature would only clutter the UI esp. as you can set the option to have your devices reset by default.
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Creativemind
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Post 10 Jan 2019

jam-s wrote:
10 Jan 2019
m.arthur wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M
That feature would only clutter the UI esp. as you can set the option to have your devices reset by default.
Yes when you first open the device but then you tweak the device and want to reset it again, a button would be great actually. Something near the bypass switch. That's a good idea.
:reason:

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m.arthur
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Post 10 Jan 2019

jam-s wrote:
10 Jan 2019
m.arthur wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M
That feature would only clutter the UI esp. as you can set the option to have your devices reset by default.
The setting to have devices load in a default state is only a half-solution, though. Many times when working on a patch, I decide it's not working and I want to reset the device and start from scratch. The "load in default state" setting is no help in this scenario.

But if a little "R" button is too much clutter, a key command would be fine with me, too, like a CMD+R to reset device, etc.

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selig
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Post 10 Jan 2019

m.arthur wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M
If you have a mac, you can assign a key command for this (I use option/command "R"), which makes a dedicated reset button unnecessary. Plus, this additional button is unlikely to happen because every RE would have to be updated as well to include this feature - and if only some of the devices support this feature, it's not going to be as intuitive and workflow "friendly" IMO.

Maybe what would be best is if the Props added a global key command for this function?
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raccoonboy
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Post 10 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
10 Jan 2019
m.arthur wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'd like every single Reason devices, REs included, to have a little "Reset" button on their UI that does exactly the same as the right-click context menu "Reset" option.

Because that context menu is LONG and it sucks having to re-locate "reset" every single time.

-M
If you have a mac, you can assign a key command for this (I use option/command "R"), which makes a dedicated reset button unnecessary. Plus, this additional button is unlikely to happen because every RE would have to be updated as well to include this feature - and if only some of the devices support this feature, it's not going to be as intuitive and workflow "friendly" IMO.

Maybe what would be best is if the Props added a global key command for this function?
Was about to say the same thing. Wud drive me crazy to not be able to use custom shortcuts. Especially in Reason. The menus are mental

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Creativemind
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Post 10 Jan 2019

jam-s wrote:
09 Jan 2019
For something to be called Reason 11 I think it should include the long awaited virtual MIDI cables for the rack and in this renovation of the MIDI-(routing)-system the internal MIDI implementation should be swapped with a modern one that supports extensions that can handle microtunings and polyphonic expression and bank switches, more parameters, etc. (MTS, MTC, MPE, XG, MMC, (MSC?)).
Wouldn't that be a massive overhall and just too much of a coding nightmare?
:reason:

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DiZo
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Post 10 Jan 2019

redrum mk2 (all option on all tracks and one or two edit option on each tracks)

better graphic resolution for new screen and for my eyes ^^

NNXT mk2 ( a better screen, and onboard time stretc, pitch shift etc...)
nanograin in nnxt
europa copy/paste function for engine

Mixer snapshot option

thor mk2 i like more thor, europa is good, but my reason go to synth in reason is thor
nano malstrom in thor

a drum tuner

edit: all old propellerhead refill in reason sound bank

radikal keys too

reason bass re too ^^

oh!!! all propellerhead RE !!! in reason (i have buy prop re but not a probleme)

a little and easy sdk user friendly for private RE (no export/sharing if its a commercial probleme)

we can hidden tracks on the mixer

dr octorex mk2 (better filter)

midi/enveloppe "clic" bug artefact erasing

custom combinator for create own instrument

extend backdrop for more device

more color

movable:scrollable map for the rack

a more big scroll tool on seq and mixer

custom insert combinator (if i want only one knob on mixer or five..)

custom slot number for send (if i want only one or more on mixer channel)

sry for my english guys

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jam-s
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Post 10 Jan 2019

Creativemind wrote:
10 Jan 2019
jam-s wrote:
09 Jan 2019
For something to be called Reason 11 I think it should include the long awaited virtual MIDI cables for the rack and in this renovation of the MIDI-(routing)-system the internal MIDI implementation should be swapped with a modern one that supports extensions that can handle microtunings and polyphonic expression and bank switches, more parameters, etc. (MTS, MTC, MPE, XG, MMC, (MSC?)).
Wouldn't that be a massive overhall and just too much of a coding nightmare?
If they followd best practice OOP design patterns it would most likely just involve replacing the MIDI implementation class with an extended more advanced one in the codebase, adding proper interfaces to the new methods and to the SDK, and make the new functionality available in the UI.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

PeterP
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Post 11 Jan 2019

madmacman wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I've been a software engineer for two decades myself, and despite the fact that I use git on a regular basis, I find the concept of commit/push/pull combined with merging and branching a complete PITA (and in our team there's once a month much "fun" when a colleague has shreddered a branch again with a faulty git command)

It's an extremely technical solution - far away from any creative approach. I could teach my wife how to use a DAW, but I could never explain the basic concept of git! For maintaining snapshots in a Reason project, there must be a dead simple solution, mainly two "buttons": STORE (ideally with numerical increment) and RECALL. And I doubt that developing such an overlay for e.g. git would be easier than deriving a simple versioning solution from what already exists inside Reason.
You picked Git which is maybe the hardest one to understand and use, and is the least suited to handle large binary files. There are others that are very easy to use, like the way you described.

If the WAVs were stored external to the project then you could just use macOS Time Machine. A step up would be something like TortoiseSVN. No need to use Git unless you really need all the advanced features and are a technical person.

selig wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I don't think I was clear - this is not version control software (which I use for my RE development, so I'm familiar with the concept), it's exactly the same as saving "versions" (a studio name for different mixes you must generate for record labels) of a mix at the end of the project or along the way.
Sure, saving new versions is fine, but how will previewing differences between versions work. Can I go back to an old version and save an alternative, what version number will that get? Will I be able to update/remove specific versions if I want to?

selig wrote:
10 Jan 2019
This suggestion has actually been implemented in other software since I first suggested it years ago. Check out "Alternatives" in Logic Pro, for example.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ives-logic

It's already how folks work, it's just a faster and more integrated way to achieve these results.
Track versions is definitely a feature I would like too. It's not the same as song versions though.

---

Overall, I'm still not convinced that it's something that needs to be "built in" to Reason. Allowing me to keep WAVs outside the project file (and perhaps adding a way to automatically save incremental file versions?) would go 90% of the way for me.

The last 10% would be if the project file was XML so that I could collaborate/merge changes easily, but it's pretty far down the prio list for me.

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selig
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Post 11 Jan 2019

PeterP wrote:
11 Jan 2019

Sure, saving new versions is fine, but how will previewing differences between versions work. Can I go back to an old version and save an alternative, what version number will that get? Will I be able to update/remove specific versions if I want to?
You would do it EXACTLY the same as you would do it if there were separate song versions saved with external audio files (as with other DAWs).
The ONLY difference is the song versions are contained in one song file instead of separately (unless exported separately, if desired).
I can't think how to explain it any simpler - does this still not make sense? (happy to clarify further if not)

I'm simply being pragmatic because I don't believe the Props will ever allow separate audio files - but who knows?
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PeterP
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Post 11 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
11 Jan 2019
PeterP wrote:
11 Jan 2019

Sure, saving new versions is fine, but how will previewing differences between versions work. Can I go back to an old version and save an alternative, what version number will that get? Will I be able to update/remove specific versions if I want to?
You would do it EXACTLY the same as you would do it if there were separate song versions saved with external audio files (as with other DAWs).
The ONLY difference is the song versions are contained in one song file instead of separately (unless exported separately, if desired).
I can't think how to explain it any simpler - does this still not make sense? (happy to clarify further if not)
I understand what you mean, my point was that there's so much more you could do if it was separate files/versions in a VCS instead.
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2019
I'm simply being pragmatic because I don't believe the Props will ever allow separate audio files - but who knows?
They've surprised us before with audio and VST support.

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selig
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Post 11 Jan 2019

PeterP wrote:
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2019
You would do it EXACTLY the same as you would do it if there were separate song versions saved with external audio files (as with other DAWs).
The ONLY difference is the song versions are contained in one song file instead of separately (unless exported separately, if desired).
I can't think how to explain it any simpler - does this still not make sense? (happy to clarify further if not)
I understand what you mean, my point was that there's so much more you could do if it was separate files/versions in a VCS instead.
selig wrote:
11 Jan 2019
I'm simply being pragmatic because I don't believe the Props will ever allow separate audio files - but who knows?
They've surprised us before with audio and VST support.
But I would suggest there’s no practical application for such a complex and versatile system.

I just need a mix with vocals, a mix with no vocals, a mix with only some vocals, a mix with louder or softer vocals, etc. Or a mix with an extended bridge, and a mix with a truncated bridge, radio edit, etc.

I can do that in Reason now, but I can’t do it quickly or easily. I can also do that in Pro Tools, but I can’t make changes easily across multiple versions. Having separate audio doesn’t make doing this stuff any easier, it simply takes up less HD space if the audio doesn’t have to be saved with each version, and there are two ways to add this functionality in Reason. One gives you separate audio, the other potentially gives you a valuable additional feature (“versions”).

Ultimately, in my “perfect” world I REALLY don’t want to leave the DAW to save a separate version with no vocals and then to turn up the snare (or adjust a reverb, etc.) across 5 versions without having to save/load each version and make the changes 5 times. A VCS won’t make those everyday tasks any easier unless (IMO) it’s integrated into the host app.


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plaamook
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Post 11 Jan 2019

I know this may sound trivial but I'd like them to change the default device colour back to Powder Blue or to some other mild colour. Tangerine is a bit much.

PeterP
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Post 11 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
11 Jan 2019
Ultimately, in my “perfect” world I REALLY don’t want to leave the DAW to save a separate version with no vocals and then to turn up the snare (or adjust a reverb, etc.) across 5 versions without having to save/load each version and make the changes 5 times. A VCS won’t make those everyday tasks any easier unless (IMO) it’s integrated into the host app.
Ok, I guess what it comes down to is that I see "separate audio" and a "versions system" as two orthogonal issues.

I am mainly concerned about separate audio and saving HD space.

I can see the benefit of a built in version system in your scenario, but I still want the option of separate audio files.

madmacman
Posts: 466
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Post 11 Jan 2019

PeterP wrote:
11 Jan 2019
Ok, I guess what it comes down to is that I see "separate audio" and a "versions system" as two orthogonal issues.

I am mainly concerned about separate audio and saving HD space.

I can see the benefit of a built in version system in your scenario, but I still want the option of separate audio files.
Indeed, as I wrote above: With an audio-heavy mix (e.g. mainly recorded hardware synths), it can turn into several GB per file. With a dozen or more "snapshots" of a song on the harddisk, you can easily clutter up your free space.

A half-baked option would be to save all audio as FLAC. But this would require another step of conversion and slow down the file saving even further.

PeterP
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post 11 Jan 2019

madmacman wrote:
11 Jan 2019
Indeed, as I wrote above: With an audio-heavy mix (e.g. mainly recorded hardware synths), it can turn into several GB per file. With a dozen or more "snapshots" of a song on the harddisk, you can easily clutter up your free space.

A half-baked option would be to save all audio as FLAC. But this would require another step of conversion and slow down the file saving even further.
I would welcome optional FLAC support very much!

chaosroyale
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Post 11 Jan 2019

Selig's solution solves the problem of large/separate audio files AND having different versions, in an efficient way. The large audio file has to be stored somewhere, the only problem is that you end up with multiple copies of it every time you save a new version of your mix. The actual reason files are tiny in comparison.

A system where you have -for example- up to 10 "slots" in a single reason file for saving all of the non-audio data would solve this and allow you to have your instrument only mix as one "version" or have 2 slightly different mixes for CD/LP, or just update your work in progress without losing your older version if you want to go back, etc.

m.arthur
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Post 11 Jan 2019

RE: version management

The way Ableton handles this seems to address all the issues expressed here. This isn't a complicated system, other devs figured it out long ago. Ableton's system is easy to understand, and totally efficient--

When you save a new song session in ableton, a Project Folder is created automatically and given the name of the song you just saved. The actual session file, .als, is saved inside the project folder. Also inside the project folder, like magic, is....drumroll....a Samples folder. I don't need to tell you what gets stored in there.
Now, if you have the original session file open, and you choose to save it under a different name (like, "*SongName*V.2"), the new .als session file gets saved inside that original project folder. It doesn't re-save any samples, because it will simply look in the project folder, and bam, there are the samples, stored in the Samples folder inside the project folder. Best of all, the user didn't have to configure ANY of this, it was all done on auto-pilot.

You can save twenty different versions of your song session, and all of them will be inside that ONE project folder, and all the samples will be referenced from that ONE samples folder. At any time you can do a "collect all and save" function, to make sure any externally-accessed content (or even content from the factory library) winds up in that samples folder.

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Exowildebeest
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Post 11 Jan 2019

m.arthur wrote:
11 Jan 2019
RE: version management

The way Ableton handles this seems to address all the issues expressed here. This isn't a complicated system, other devs figured it out long ago. Ableton's system is easy to understand, and totally efficient--

When you save a new song session in ableton, a Project Folder is created automatically and given the name of the song you just saved. The actual session file, .als, is saved inside the project folder. Also inside the project folder, like magic, is....drumroll....a Samples folder. I don't need to tell you what gets stored in there.
Now, if you have the original session file open, and you choose to save it under a different name (like, "*SongName*V.2"), the new .als session file gets saved inside that original project folder. It doesn't re-save any samples, because it will simply look in the project folder, and bam, there are the samples, stored in the Samples folder inside the project folder. Best of all, the user didn't have to configure ANY of this, it was all done on auto-pilot.

You can save twenty different versions of your song session, and all of them will be inside that ONE project folder, and all the samples will be referenced from that ONE samples folder. At any time you can do a "collect all and save" function, to make sure any externally-accessed content (or even content from the factory library) winds up in that samples folder.
The Ableton system never clicked with me, in all the years I've used it, which is more than a decade by now... I just keep saving projects into the same project folder. For some reason it has always confused me, and I feel like I'm working against the software, instead of the software working for/with me. In that particular project management area of Ableton (also in automation and zooming but I digress..). I hope Propellerheads figures out a way to do versions that vibes well with me :) But it's not a major feature request for me anyway, I'm surviving just fine with enough storage space for full file manual versions, the way I do it currently. I understand of course that for others, like people who work with very large projects, versioning is much more important. I must admit that I do mastering in Ableton exactly because it allows me to save many versions without inflating the file with the audio track data! Since Reason supports VST now, I could switch to doing it in Reason, but the filesize for different versions is the main obstacle. An option to externally reference (certain) audio clips would already solve this for me.

m.arthur
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Post 12 Jan 2019

Exowildebeest wrote:
11 Jan 2019
The Ableton system never clicked with me, in all the years I've used it, which is more than a decade by now... I just keep saving projects into the same project folder. For some reason it has always confused me, and I feel like I'm working against the software, instead of the software working for/with me. In that particular project management area of Ableton (also in automation and zooming but I digress..). I hope Propellerheads figures out a way to do versions that vibes well with me :) But it's not a major feature request for me anyway, I'm surviving just fine with enough storage space for full file manual versions, the way I do it currently. I understand of course that for others, like people who work with very large projects, versioning is much more important. I must admit that I do mastering in Ableton exactly because it allows me to save many versions without inflating the file with the audio track data! Since Reason supports VST now, I could switch to doing it in Reason, but the filesize for different versions is the main obstacle. An option to externally reference (certain) audio clips would already solve this for me.

No disrespect meant, but if the Ableton system feels like it's working against you / is too confusing for you, I can't possibly imagine what sort of system is going to please you.

the ableton system is anything but complex. It's a Project Folder for each project. All the assets are stored within it -- sessions (thereby allowing countless variations), samples, imported files, etc. How you're managing to save multiple projects in one project folder, I can't even really imagine. I mean sure, it requires the utmost basic level of OS folder hierarchy comprehension....I guess the "confusing" part is that it automatically creates a Project folder on your first save of a session? To me, that's intuitive and useful.

Anyway.

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