Are You Serious?!

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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QVprod
Posts: 1959
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
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20 Jun 2018

I say this a lot, but I'll say it again; It's a lot less frustrating when you use software for what it's good at. Use something else for what it's not good at. Trying to hack the software to do more than what it's designed to do is only going to bring even more frustration. If you find a DAW that does everything you want it to, then switch. Life is simple.

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 1826
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

20 Jun 2018

QVprod wrote:
20 Jun 2018
I say this a lot, but I'll say it again; It's a lot less frustrating when you use software for what it's good at. Use something else for what it's not good at. Trying to hack the software to do more than what it's designed to do is only going to bring even more frustration. If you find a DAW that does everything you want it to, then switch. Life is simple.
Exactly. I've seen a few people - albeit some very resourceful and dedicated people - trying to use Combinators and CV utilities to "script" new behaviour into the core program when it just isn't there. It's time better spent making music in the way the software is designed to make it. Which is not to say I'm opposed to experimentation. That's one of the things I love about Reason. But when it turns into obsession (and inevitable frustration when you hit roadblocks that even PH never foresaw people reaching) then you've gotta take a breath and ask "what am I actually trying to do here that couldn't be done more easily, or in other software?".

The ultimate goal is to make music. I think if your needs are *that* specific, there are other options. Learn Reaktor! I mean I'm pretty sure you can make any damn thing you want in that. Or MaxMSP. Or just learn to code.

*Edit: again, none of which is to say there aren't legitimate gripes. I feel like a broken record asking for multi-channel MIDI, folder tracks, rack popouts. But the absence of those things isn't a roadblock for me. If it is for someone else, then the solution is quite obvious.
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

HP Envy J130ea | i7 4700MQ | 12 GB DDR | 2GB GeForce 740m | Komplete Audio 6

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kuhliloach
Posts: 544
Joined: 09 Dec 2015

20 Jun 2018

Reason is so advanced and capable it's beyond the comprehension of most users. With that power comes the thorn of a complex user interface (UI) that can take years to learn and is not in any way user-friendly. This is something I've mentioned before. Propellerheads claims this product is easy to use but personally I find it to be the epitome of non-intuitive. For example using an effect can happen in at least three distinct ways: placing the effect onto an instrument in the rack, placing that effect inside the mix channel's insert section, or placing the effect on one of the SSL's sends. Or, for example, if you create an audio track and rename it the corresponding mix channel is automatically renamed the same. But if you rename an instrument the mix channel does not rename itself! To a new user these types of things stop productivity dead in their tracks.

There is nothing more important in software design than the user interface. It serves as the bridge between the functions and the operator. Fail at making a quality user interface and none of the underlying power matters as it becomes useless and inaccessible.

But what if a person can get past that learning curve? Does the underlying power blossom and become a thing of fascination and beauty? It sure does! The greatest gift Reason has given me so far is an education in both the use of the program and the fundamentals of mixing. There is almost no limit to the amazement Reason provides me. So it seems users have a choice with Reason. Either get over the hump of learning or move on to software that works for you. There are some fantastic DAW's out there with clean intuitive UI's that provide great results. They may not pack all the power of a "Reason" but they might get you to your goal much faster. Is Propellerhead claiming Reason is easy when in fact it isn't? They sure are!

I suggest listening to the demos of Reason 1.0 and 2.5: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7507504

Reverse engineer them, even. They serve as proof that at the most fundamental level Reason is a beast to be tamed.

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QVprod
Posts: 1959
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
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20 Jun 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Jun 2018
QVprod wrote:
20 Jun 2018
I say this a lot, but I'll say it again; It's a lot less frustrating when you use software for what it's good at. Use something else for what it's not good at. Trying to hack the software to do more than what it's designed to do is only going to bring even more frustration. If you find a DAW that does everything you want it to, then switch. Life is simple.
Exactly. I've seen a few people - albeit some very resourceful and dedicated people - trying to use Combinators and CV utilities to "script" new behaviour into the core program when it just isn't there. It's time better spent making music in the way the software is designed to make it. Which is not to say I'm opposed to experimentation. That's one of the things I love about Reason. But when it turns into obsession (and inevitable frustration when you hit roadblocks that even PH never foresaw people reaching) then you've gotta take a breath and ask "what am I actually trying to do here that couldn't be done more easily, or in other software?".

The ultimate goal is to make music. I think if your needs are *that* specific, there are other options. Learn Reaktor! I mean I'm pretty sure you can make any damn thing you want in that. Or MaxMSP. Or just learn to code.

*Edit: again, none of which is to say there aren't legitimate gripes. I feel like a broken record asking for multi-channel MIDI, folder tracks, rack popouts. But the absence of those things isn't a roadblock for me. If it is for someone else, then the solution is quite obvious.
Yes. Of course every software has its gripes, but if those gripes are show stoppers then the software just isn't for you. Don't get upset because a hammer doesn't do what a screwdriver does. It's pretty silly. The actual music making process (as far as composition) is pretty simple and doesn't require significant features to get done. New features that benefit me in Reason or S1 are generally nothing ground breaking but simply things that speed up workflow. As an example, I bought the Studio One 4 upgrade. One of the major new features is the chord track, however as amazing as that is, I play piano so the likelihood of me ever using it is pretty slim. I got the upgrade for simple things like Impact XT and import song data. Why? Because the software already works well for what I need it to do. Too many people are waiting for a particular feature or they're ready jump ship. That means they weren't happy with the software to begin with.

Undistraction
Posts: 133
Joined: 11 May 2018

20 Jun 2018

I think there's a big difference between getting frustrated that software doesn't do what you want and getting frustrated because software you have used for a long time is not being updated to keep it relevant, especially given the time and money invested over time. If someone had come to Reason in the last six months and was moaning about its lack of features then yes, they could be accused of whining. But if people who have been using it for ten years have finally given up, that is a big deal and something Propellerhead should be paying attention to.

madmacman
Posts: 421
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

20 Jun 2018

Undistraction wrote:
20 Jun 2018
But if people who have been using it for ten years have finally given up, that is a big deal and something Propellerhead should be paying attention to.
Maybe they have outgrown Reason? Software changes - or not. But so do people. Love can last for a long time, but it happens to get divorced for reasons.

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Oquasec
Posts: 1942
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

20 Jun 2018

Reason has everything covered. Reason 5 is still a staple despite owning 100+ modules & Reason 10.
It gets the jobs done, and works exactly like hardware like an akai mpc4000 & access virus.
(Thor is a virus)
Reason/FL Studio.

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jetpilot00
Posts: 28
Joined: 27 May 2017

20 Jun 2018

I am at the very opposite end of the OP's spectrum. I left Reason for two years trying, in vain, to utilize the "best" VST's, audio interface, surface controller, etc. About 2 weeks ago, I brought up Reason for the first time in over a year. The flow, the ease of use, the visual familiararity. Outside of a few hiccups with my UAD plug's, everything worked perfectly as one would expect. That is NOT my experience with the the other "ecosystems". So many software updates, passwords, ILok issues.

It's exhausting trying to always track down incompatibilities when you just want to record or mix.

I never have that issue with Reason. It just works and it works the way I expect it to work.

Yes, they all have their own "ecosystem" now. Presonus has their controllers that only work in the manner you would want them to work, with Studio One. Avid's interfaces use a language only Pro Tools and Cubase recognize. Softube’s tremendous Console 1 only supports the best features in some DAW's, etc., etc.

For me, I'm back to Reason for as long as I care to record and mix. As soon as they get UAD plug-ins working appropriately, there is just one thing I will need; a truly dedicated hardware controller similar to the Faderport. I'm going to try the X-touch soon with the Codec that a user had to, basically, create, (shame on you, Propellerhead) and hopefully that will get me by until the Reason hardware controller of my dreams comes to fruition.

IMHO, Reason is the best DAW that needs a face-lift in some areas and features added in others. However, my needs are fairly straight forward but it does exactly what I need.

-JP
Last edited by jetpilot00 on 20 Jun 2018, edited 1 time in total.
***If life is a song, I've just passed the guitar solo.***

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Namyo85
Posts: 178
Joined: 11 Mar 2017

20 Jun 2018

I recently came across a Facebook page called 'Cubase bugs and annoyances', point being even Cubase isn't without problems. I've come to the conclusion that all DAWs are a constant work in progress and there'll always be a bug to find. My main gripe with Reason is the time it seems to be taking to fix the long term bugs and core issues that have been a thorn in it's side for years. I personally would like to see a bug fix update for 9.5, i.e. for those who don't wish to upgrade to 10... Like me right now. One never knows, doing so may make myself and others upgrade to 10 knowing they are 'on it' so to speak. My 2 cents. :cool:

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6502
Posts: 125
Joined: 18 Nov 2015

20 Jun 2018

Creativemind wrote:
20 Jun 2018
There could have also been coding issues and stuff as I saw recently they were advertising for a C++ developer to join their team.
Don't panic :D They have had an ad for a C++ developer since the 1.0 days. This is nothing new. Most high-tech companies continually recruit for talent. BTW, I know this because I have been a software developer for 15 years. Too bad I don't speak Swedish - what an awesome place to work that would be!

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kuhliloach
Posts: 544
Joined: 09 Dec 2015

20 Jun 2018

6502 wrote:
20 Jun 2018
Creativemind wrote:
20 Jun 2018
There could have also been coding issues and stuff as I saw recently they were advertising for a C++ developer to join their team.
Don't panic :D They have had an ad for a C++ developer since the 1.0 days. This is nothing new. Most high-tech companies continually recruit for talent. BTW, I know this because I have been a software developer for 15 years. Too bad I don't speak Swedish - what an awesome place to work that would be!
Kanske kan vi bara använda Google Translate hela dagen.

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pushedbutton
Posts: 956
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Lancashire, UK
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20 Jun 2018

kuhliloach wrote:
20 Jun 2018


Kanske kan vi bara använda Google Translate hela dagen.
Jag såg vad du gjorde där.
@pushedbutton on twitter, add me, send me a message, but don't try to sell me stuff cos I'm skint. https://allihoopa.com/pushedbutton#

https://allihoopa.com/s/g5yj2m1B

kitekrazy
Posts: 648
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

20 Jun 2018

Creativemind wrote:
20 Jun 2018
I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago and don't think I'm wrong that Reason wasn't designed to be like a conventional daw if a daw at all. It was designed to just emulate a rack mount in a real studio and flip to the back to wire devices together and create weird and wonderful sounds and that is a very powerful thing and can amaze people once you know what you're doing.

However, with it being software, you needed to be able to sequence too. So it had a sequencer. They never intended to implement VST so all the software devices were designed very clearly and the GUI was beautiful (in my opinion....Thor, Subtractor, Dr.Rex, Malstom, Redrum etc). The Subtractor is one of the best soft synths to learn synthesis on. They should just improve it a bit (add FX, a Mod Matrix, make it stereo and hasn't it got an aliasing problem?) and then they should make it a VST like they have now with Europa. I think it could be excellent for colleges and universities all over the world to buy to teach subtractive synthesis on. Anyway, back to what I was saying....the Redrum was kind of an emulation of an 808, Kong - the MPC, Dr.Octo.Rex a drum loop player with more features etc.

What's happened though, is 6 brought audio which effectively made it now, an official digital Audio workstation. Then I think Propellerhead had been stuck in their ways for ages and then were (I think) reluctant to implement a lot of the features Reason needed in order for it to compete professionally against the big giants such as Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic and FL Studio. There could have also been coding issues and stuff as I saw recently they were advertising for a C++ developer to join their team.

Now though, they're really starting to bring Reason up to par in my opinion. They've implanted VST (which they never intended), really improved the SDK with sample loading etc and the Rack Extension format has grown tremendously over the years. Then introducing PDC, the Players, Pitch-Correction, Audio to Midi, Themes. It still needs a lot of features though and a lot of simple things seem to be missing, like muting notes in the midi editor lol! and I couldn't even select all the clips on one track the other day and fairly certain you can't without zooming out and using the mouse, you can 'Select All' as in all tracks and devices but not just the clips on one track, can you? quite tedious to zoom out, hover over with the mouse and then zoom back again.

Anyway, as frustrating as Reason can be, there's something about it I just really love and I think that one day Reason will be up to par with Logic and Pro Tools. Maybe by Reason 12 as the other softwares out there don't really have a lot more they can implement really can they? so all's Reason can do now is catch up. However, Reason will always have the 'Back of the Rack' that other DAW's don't.
That's really it. If it stops becoming that I probably wouldn't bother with it.

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6502
Posts: 125
Joined: 18 Nov 2015

20 Jun 2018

kuhliloach wrote:
20 Jun 2018
6502 wrote:
20 Jun 2018


Don't panic :D They have had an ad for a C++ developer since the 1.0 days. This is nothing new. Most high-tech companies continually recruit for talent. BTW, I know this because I have been a software developer for 15 years. Too bad I don't speak Swedish - what an awesome place to work that would be!
Kanske kan vi bara använda Google Translate hela dagen.
Jag har köpt så mycket från Ikea att jag borde veta hur man talar svenska!

jlgrimes
Posts: 259
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

20 Jun 2018

I'll be the first to admit Reason has it's issues.

But at the same time, it does some things well as well.

I kind of guess though when Reason was smaller, it was a much easier program to learn.


Now we have alot, I was trying to show someone how to use it and I could tell I was going over their head.

It has a learning curve but that said with YouTube and the manual you can figure it out.


I'll admit drawing automation could be better.

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antic604
Posts: 1110
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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21 Jun 2018

Undistraction wrote:
20 Jun 2018
If someone had come to Reason in the last six months and was moaning about its lack of features then yes, they could be accused of whining. But if people who have been using it for ten years have finally given up, that is a big deal and something Propellerhead should be paying attention to.
From my experience it's quite the opposite - people who came to Reason recently (I count myself to that group) are not whining, but rather they're providing very valid and useful perspective, usually coming from other DAWs and thus being able to recognise Reason's strengths and weaknesses more clearly. People that have been using Reason for 5, 10 or 15 years are so entrenched in "Reason ways" they no longer see the problems - it's "normal" you need to click the menu to change grid snapping, it's "normal" that Combinator knob names don't transfer to sequencer, it's "normal" that you get 5-6 tracks in a sequencer because you automated the instrument, its effects and the mix channel, it's "normal" that you can't automate some things unless you put it in a Combinator... And so on, and so forth...

And it's not just Reason that does this to people, as I've seen exactly the same mentality in Live: it's "normal" you zoom-in by dragging a scroll bar rather than using trackpad gestures or mouse wheel, because that's how we always worked! it's "normal" that you have to create ghost channel to send sidechain signal to 3rd party plugin! it's "normal" that LFO device runs like shit and eats CPU for breakfast, because it's an M4L device and not truly native one...

So I disagree - Props should listen to everyone with good ideas, but especially those newcommers if they want others people to jump on board. For better or worse, Reason should adjust to current standards and expectations with regards to sequencer, track management (incl. freezing), support for high-DPI screens WHILE remaining itself with the unique Rack and Mixer, cable patching, powerful RE environment.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 // Studio One 4 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Creativemind
Posts: 2251
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

21 Jun 2018

kitekrazy wrote:
20 Jun 2018
Creativemind wrote:
20 Jun 2018
I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago and don't think I'm wrong that Reason wasn't designed to be like a conventional daw if a daw at all. It was designed to just emulate a rack mount in a real studio and flip to the back to wire devices together and create weird and wonderful sounds and that is a very powerful thing and can amaze people once you know what you're doing.

However, with it being software, you needed to be able to sequence too. So it had a sequencer. They never intended to implement VST so all the software devices were designed very clearly and the GUI was beautiful (in my opinion....Thor, Subtractor, Dr.Rex, Malstom, Redrum etc). The Subtractor is one of the best soft synths to learn synthesis on. They should just improve it a bit (add FX, a Mod Matrix, make it stereo and hasn't it got an aliasing problem?) and then they should make it a VST like they have now with Europa. I think it could be excellent for colleges and universities all over the world to buy to teach subtractive synthesis on. Anyway, back to what I was saying....the Redrum was kind of an emulation of an 808, Kong - the MPC, Dr.Octo.Rex a drum loop player with more features etc.

What's happened though, is 6 brought audio which effectively made it now, an official digital Audio workstation. Then I think Propellerhead had been stuck in their ways for ages and then were (I think) reluctant to implement a lot of the features Reason needed in order for it to compete professionally against the big giants such as Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic and FL Studio. There could have also been coding issues and stuff as I saw recently they were advertising for a C++ developer to join their team.

Now though, they're really starting to bring Reason up to par in my opinion. They've implanted VST (which they never intended), really improved the SDK with sample loading etc and the Rack Extension format has grown tremendously over the years. Then introducing PDC, the Players, Pitch-Correction, Audio to Midi, Themes. It still needs a lot of features though and a lot of simple things seem to be missing, like muting notes in the midi editor lol! and I couldn't even select all the clips on one track the other day and fairly certain you can't without zooming out and using the mouse, you can 'Select All' as in all tracks and devices but not just the clips on one track, can you? quite tedious to zoom out, hover over with the mouse and then zoom back again.

Anyway, as frustrating as Reason can be, there's something about it I just really love and I think that one day Reason will be up to par with Logic and Pro Tools. Maybe by Reason 12 as the other softwares out there don't really have a lot more they can implement really can they? so all's Reason can do now is catch up. However, Reason will always have the 'Back of the Rack' that other DAW's don't.
That's really it. If it stops becoming that I probably wouldn't bother with it.
Which is a viewpoint I never quite understand. So you don't want Propellerhead to implement more features? so then you can stay on Reason (whatever version you're on) and nothing has to change for you? for others, such as myself who want it to be more a professional daw and work more intuitively and have many more features, we upgrade, where's the problem?
:reason:

Reason 10.2

danc
Posts: 110
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

21 Jun 2018

I've been with Reason since version... um... wait on... it was called ReBirth. - so... before version 1. I don't think I've ever struggled in trying to understand it. Everything always has seemed quite logical - even with the multitude of ways to do any one thing. I was a games coder for like 30 years - so using Reason was a walk in the park in comparison to making games work on Atari VCS consoles from the 70's!

I agree with everyone that the Sequencer needs a complete sort out. E.g. I really want to be able to view/expand multiple track lanes at once - to see their note data together - either one above another - or one ghosted on top of another. Especially as I use music theory (e.g. contemporary counterpoint) methods - which rely on cross- checking with other simultaneous instrumentation. Yes - there are workarounds but not very good ones.

And another thing... About halfway through building a track... I have so many rack effects and synths etc setup, with so many cables and hidden rules, that it becomes a complete and utter nightmare to remember what is doing what. Yes - I know you can shrink things and hide the mess - but I do think there needs to be a better way to navigate around a populated rack. Maybe as a solution... they allow us to create multiple racks (not side by side as they are) but stand-alone rack groups - and call each one sensible names like Drums... and another Bass and another Lead... or something. I'm rambling... but please - help me sort my mammoth racks.

However... Reason is so unbelievably rock-solid for me that I forgive it for its less capable features. It's a workhorse that works for me.

I won't be leaving Reason anytime soon. It's quirky - but solid. Just like all of us humans.
All my music created, produced and mastered in Reason 10


kitekrazy
Posts: 648
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

21 Jun 2018

Creativemind wrote:
21 Jun 2018
kitekrazy wrote:
20 Jun 2018


That's really it. If it stops becoming that I probably wouldn't bother with it.
Which is a viewpoint I never quite understand. So you don't want Propellerhead to implement more features? so then you can stay on Reason (whatever version you're on) and nothing has to change for you? for others, such as myself who want it to be more a professional daw and work more intuitively and have many more features, we upgrade, where's the problem?
That's because you don't understand the viewpoint. If they ditched the rack then it is no longer Reason. There's really no incentive to use it anymore. As for other features its a different story.

calebbrennan
Posts: 207
Joined: 16 Aug 2016

22 Jun 2018

Life is perspective.

you might be recording with a reel to reel in a forest in the seventies
Imagine threading the thing?

Now we got full on recording small as USB stick integrated in a few laptop programs

.Reason rocks for me -bECAUSE IT IS LIMITED

that is why I like it

endless choices inhibit flow

Gulale
Posts: 474
Joined: 22 Feb 2015

22 Jun 2018

calebbrennan wrote:
22 Jun 2018


.Reason rocks for me -bECAUSE IT IS LIMITED

that is why I like it

endless choices inhibit flow
It really saddened me every single time I read this perception. How is that possible that people chose to delete manually while they can do it with strip silence and state the fact that they have a stand "endless choices inhibit flow". Endless choices will make you like God. God in terms of using that DAW. Every single time there is a short coming, you ended up pulling your hair unless you have plenty of time to spend for workaround. That I can't afford. I won't live forever the less time I spend the more time I have for other stuff. I could have gone and say a lot but it won't bring anything other than making the place ugly. Reason need a lot you know what a lot of improvements. Lets leave it like that.
Gulale aka Bereket

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antic604
Posts: 1110
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

22 Jun 2018

calebbrennan wrote:
22 Jun 2018
.Reason rocks for me -bECAUSE IT IS LIMITED

that is why I like it

endless choices inhibit flow
I agree! Having to click the status bar and choose grid snapping size from a drop-down menu has a really inspiring effect on me, comparable only to the time I'm spending trying to understand which of the 5 tracks for The Echo automation actually is connected to the instrument part I'm currently working on.

/sarcasm

LOL ;) :D

You simply learned over years that this is how it's done and built your workflow around it. But in no way is this workflow optimal, when we're dealing with software where such things can be improved with few (dozens, hundreds) lines of code.

As I said above, the worst enemies of a DAW (any DAW, not just Reason!) are users that have been there since day 1, never used anything else and simply don't know any better. Even worse, if such people are amongst the developers of said software.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 // Studio One 4 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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normen
Posts: 3429
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

22 Jun 2018

antic604 wrote:
22 Jun 2018
calebbrennan wrote:
22 Jun 2018
.Reason rocks for me -bECAUSE IT IS LIMITED

that is why I like it

endless choices inhibit flow
I agree! Having to click the status bar and choose grid snapping size from a drop-down menu has a really inspiring effect on me, comparable only to the time I'm spending trying to understand which of the 5 tracks for The Echo automation actually is connected to the instrument part I'm currently working on.

/sarcasm
Your sarcasm doesn't quite work there - he said limited, not simple.

And yeah, understanding why you don't want to (have to) control every last single bit about your workflow or life in general... I guess that comes with age ;) At some point a lot of things just get too boring to obsess about.

madmacman
Posts: 421
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

22 Jun 2018

I don't know if it relates to either "limited", or "simple", but I happily repeat the anecdote of the guitarist of my former band: While absolutely comfortable with using (if not to say "operating") Apple Logic, roughly 80% of his song composition process was done with Garageband (including Audio, Midi, Plugins, Arrangement). And then transferred into the big brother for finishing touches.

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Krell
Posts: 44
Joined: 06 Aug 2017

22 Jun 2018

Reason is like an old car. It's quirky and characterful but once you've driven a modern car with all the modern conveniences and engineering that make it easier to drive, faster, safer and reliable that old banger is a shit of a thing to drive. Sure it has charm and its cool to take it for a spin now and then but you sure don't want to have it as your daily drive...
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Logic Pro X // UAD // Soundtoys // Vintage Hardware

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