Are You Serious?!

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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QVprod
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26 Jun 2018

All DAWs are “Jack of all trades” in regards to music making. However “jack of all trades” does not mean “equal in all trades” in terms of workflow. I use Studio One because there are some things that I can do faster or more efficiently, not because it can’t be done in Reason at all.

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guitfnky
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26 Jun 2018

mcatalao wrote:
26 Jun 2018
Well, but this is what makes Reason Reason, and other daws are... well... other daws right?

This is why i stopped using cubase once Record came. The whole arranging process in Cubase was so sterile, that Reason compared whas the most inspiring tool i ever had and i quickly got hooked to the new mixer.
The result is that i stopped using any other daw besides reason except clients send stuff recorded elsewhere.
absolutely. same here, but I came from Digital Performer. it was solid enough as a way to record and mix (did my band's first album on it, so it'll always hold a place in my heart for that). but, that said, it was sort of a boring way to get things done, and actually had way more complexity than was really needed.

I remember I had a song with an odd time signature and some tempo changes, and it took like 3 days of interacting on the MOTUNation message board to get an answer on how to use the freaking click track functionality, of all things. and the consensus there was that what I was looking to do was actually not even possible, despite how convoluted the settings were. that's when I decided I was done. when I saw what Reason could do even then, with Reason+Record Duo, I was sold.

since then, Reason as a DAW, and as an instrument/composition tool has fixed so many of those old shortcomings. definitely still room for improvement, and definitely not perfect. but for anyone with a bit of perspective, it's clear that Props has consistently worked hard to keep giving us useful improvements.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

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mcatalao
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27 Jun 2018

kitekrazy wrote:
26 Jun 2018
guitfnky wrote:
26 Jun 2018


you've inadvertently found the nut of the issue. Reason wasn't initially a DAW, in the traditional sense. it didn't even have the ability to record audio until version 5. Reason is an instrument, every bit as much as it is a DAW, at this point. I agree with a lot of the things that should be added, but I would say that if you're looking for a 'transparent' DAW, Reason would be about the last choice you should consider.
I find it impressive the music that came out of Reason before v6. You had a limited set of tools and sometimes that can be a curse or blessing. Those old NNXT refills by Sonic Reality sounded great (some still do) back in the day when Gigastudio was king.
TBH, i have a bunch of refills from Sonic Reality and they were utterly crap. I payed for a pack of 20 refills i thin i used one of them in a song, and the rest is now deleted from the pc.

IMHO, at that time Nucleus Soundlab, Jiggery Pokery, New Atlantis Audio, Edited4Tv and some others, were my favourite. More independent people doing this stuff for the love of sound and music! Plus propellerheads own refils are also great.

antic604

27 Jun 2018

guitfnky wrote:
26 Jun 2018
antic604 wrote:
26 Jun 2018
But somehow - possibly wrongly - I expect DAWs to be more "transparent", because they're tools and not instruments. Sure, some tools can be more versatile, others can be more specialised but they shouldn't compromise (significantly) in any area: what good is a screwdriver with a metal handle? or a spanner made off of soft alloy? or a hammer with a rubbery shaft? The supporting features need to enhance the main feature, not to hamper it :)
you've inadvertently found the nut of the issue. Reason wasn't initially a DAW, in the traditional sense. it didn't even have the ability to record audio until version 5. Reason is an instrument, every bit as much as it is a DAW, at this point. I agree with a lot of the things that should be added, but I would say that if you're looking for a 'transparent' DAW, Reason would be about the last choice you should consider.
I'm aware of this, even though I wasn't there to witness it (I've been using Reason since late last year, when v10 came out).

But my point is, if they decided to make a DAW out of it, then the feature set should really be robust, because otherwise it just generates frustration. And I'm not saying the Sequencer is all bad, because some features ARE awesome: automation clips (instead of typical tracks) are a great way to handle this, stretching of audio/MIDI clips right in the sequencer is great, multiple note lines and ability to mute single note line and/or automation lane is genius, built-in pitch / formant adjustment is hugely powerful & unique, comp mode is one of the best I've seen, Blocks mode is incredibly helpful. It just misses few "modern" features like track freezing, disabling and grouping or multi-clip editing + a set of keyboard shortcuts (or ideally user-defined key bindings) to round it off. What's disappointing then, is that we seem to be this close from it being perfect, but we see and hear nothing from Props about them planning to do anything about it.

I'm not expecting Props to publish a detailed schedule of what & when is going to happen, but some kind of statement where they'd say "We're working on modernising the GUI, we're developing new features and SDK for the Rack & REs so that 3rd parties could build upon them, we're working on VST performance & compatibility, we're working on sequencer & workflow improvements" would make me more eager to invest in REs and Reason ecosystem. But right now I don't know what's their vision for the platform is?! Is this it and going further we'll just get more REs and refills to purchase? Are they going mobile instead? Are they moving to be a VST developer? What's the plan here? I know the overall directions for Live (production & live performance focused on Push), Bitwig (modularity - internally & with hardware) or Studio One (viable replacement for traditional workflow of Cubase, PT or Logic) and I feel confident buying the upgrades there, as long as my needs line up with where they're going. With Reason, I've no such confidence :(

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mcatalao
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27 Jun 2018

guitfnky wrote:
26 Jun 2018
absolutely. same here, but I came from Digital Performer. it was solid enough as a way to record and mix (did my band's first album on it, so it'll always hold a place in my heart for that). but, that said, it was sort of a boring way to get things done, and actually had way more complexity than was really needed.
When i played on a World music band here in Portugal called Navegante (i was a professional musician for about 7 years) our sound engineer who also recorded 3 albums when i was there always used DP.
DP with motu was the most stable audio recording platform until mid 2000's.

But that decade brang so much options to the table (at that time you had 5 big DAWs and DP - CubEndo was alread very stable and a very good midi sequencer, Cakewalk (later renamed to sonar) was the most used at the time in windows, and you also had the more pro option Protools. Ensonic was starting their first steps with Logic Audio, shipping it in a lot of soundcards, but people seemed to look at it with some disregard. While reason was super strong in the EDM community, ableton started already with a lot of stuff Reason didn't have or offer only in integration with other Daws (at this time it wasn't even a daw).

I was a synth head who was home with Reason. I just got fascinated with the floating cables and being able to create stuff from nothing. I was at home with reason and soon i started to create my arrangements fully in Reason and rewire it into Cubase. As most if not all my songs has some sort of audio, i really needed cubase and once Record came along, it was automatically ditched.

danc
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27 Jun 2018

antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
I'm not expecting Props to publish a detailed schedule of what & when is going to happen, but some kind of statement where they'd say ..."
I understand the commercial reasons for not announcing their next steps - as the DAW market is a business and you don't want your competitors to steal your vision before you've even launched it.

However... there are some financially sane reasons for engaging with your customer...

The DAW market is well populated and to be honest... I personally can't see them all surviving. The hobbyist and professional music producing market isn't that big - yes it's big, but not big enough to happily and financially sustain Ableton, FL Studio, Pro Tools, Reason, ACID Pro, Cubase, Studio One, Sonar, Logic, Reaper, Bitwig, Digital Performer, Mixcraft etc etc etc etc etc. One of those is going to keel over and leave a whole bunch of unhappy dedicated fans.

I don't want it to be Reason that dies.

So... in my opinion Propellerhead need to de-risk things and ensure it lives on. My gripe with Propellerhead is that they are totally disconnected with their user-base. It's like IBM. It's them and us... and never shall they EVER meet! If you are reading this Propellerhead... please please please... talk to us. We might be a mad (insanely annoying) bunch... but we do actually want you to succeed... and so... please listen to our requests - filter them, make sense of them, and let us know what you are doing. We want a community, not a dictatorship.
Check my Soundcloud:

antic604

27 Jun 2018

danc wrote:
27 Jun 2018
antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
I'm not expecting Props to publish a detailed schedule of what & when is going to happen, but some kind of statement where they'd say ..."
I understand the commercial reasons for not announcing their next steps - as the DAW market is a business and you don't want your competitors to steal your vision before you've even launched it.
Sure, that's why my examples were more about them indicating the direction they're going or areas of exiting software they'll be working on, instead of very specific features. How does Live, Bitwig or Studio One take advantage of Props announcing they're working on high-DPI GUI, plugin performance and sequencer/workflow improvement? They wouldn't. Whereas I'd feel more comfortable buying more REs, refills or upgrading to new version knowing they're working on areas I'm interested in, even if their vision might not line up completely with mine.

I see they sort of trying, for example this excerpt from CEO's blog entry...
Some of you might wonder if there’s a longer thought behind this release and if it indicates a change in how we think about Reason, how much resources we put into it, if there’s a shift to how we think about updates etc? The answers is no. We can do multiple things at a time. We’ve created this VST/AU. We’re working on a mobile app. And we’re working on Reason just as always, adding features as I write this. Reason stays what it is. We already announced that there will be no paid update this year but we promise to bring you more of what you love anyway, as soon as we are able to.
...but it's incredibly vague & open to interpretation. What "mobile app" - instrument? effect? Reason companion app? Reason port? "Reason stays as it is" means what - it won't be further developed? or does he mean it will stay rack+mixer+sequencer, but they're modernising it? "bring more of what you love" - who's "you" because some of us want devices, others want workflow, others want Reason to drop rack & cables, etc.

So there's communication, but in reality it amounts to nothing.

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chimp_spanner
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27 Jun 2018

Well I take "Reason stays what it is." to mean that; a virtual modular rack environment. "As it is" would imply no further development. Which I can't for a second imagine would be the case!

antic604

27 Jun 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
27 Jun 2018
Well I take "Reason stays what it is." to mean that; a virtual modular rack environment. "As it is" would imply no further development.
Good point! :)

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QVprod
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27 Jun 2018

antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
What's the plan here? I know the overall directions for Live (production & live performance focused on Push), Bitwig (modularity - internally & with hardware) or Studio One (viable replacement for traditional workflow of Cubase, PT or Logic) and I feel confident buying the upgrades there, as long as my needs line up with where they're going. With Reason, I've no such confidence :(
antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
...but it's incredibly vague & open to interpretation. What "mobile app" - instrument? effect? Reason companion app? Reason port? "Reason stays as it is" means what - it won't be further developed? or does he mean it will stay rack+mixer+sequencer, but they're modernising it? "bring more of what you love" - who's "you" because some of us want devices, others want workflow, others want Reason to drop rack & cables, etc.

So there's communication, but in reality it amounts to nothing.
I think their overall direction is pretty clear. Making a mobile app and a VST doesn't change that.Their main focus has always been on the rack. Reason stays "as is" meaning they continue to focus on the rack like they always have. Either way, focusing on what they do in the future just doesn't seem like the right move as a user. Fixes like GUI resolution and VST performance are a given that will dealt with, we're just not guaranteed a "when". So the introspection question is: does it work for you now? If certain features don't change, is it still usable? That's what's most important. Also keep in mind that Reason functions very differently to other DAWs, so the implementation of certain things is often not as 'simple' as we may think it is.

antic604

27 Jun 2018

QVprod wrote:
27 Jun 2018
antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
What's the plan here? I know the overall directions for Live (production & live performance focused on Push), Bitwig (modularity - internally & with hardware) or Studio One (viable replacement for traditional workflow of Cubase, PT or Logic) and I feel confident buying the upgrades there, as long as my needs line up with where they're going. With Reason, I've no such confidence :(
antic604 wrote:
27 Jun 2018
...but it's incredibly vague & open to interpretation. What "mobile app" - instrument? effect? Reason companion app? Reason port? "Reason stays as it is" means what - it won't be further developed? or does he mean it will stay rack+mixer+sequencer, but they're modernising it? "bring more of what you love" - who's "you" because some of us want devices, others want workflow, others want Reason to drop rack & cables, etc.

So there's communication, but in reality it amounts to nothing.
I think their overall direction is pretty clear. Making a mobile app and a VST doesn't change that.Their main focus has always been on the rack. Reason stays "as is" meaning they continue to focus on the rack like they always have. Either way, focusing on what they do in the future just doesn't seem like the right move as a user. Fixes like GUI resolution and VST performance are a given that will dealt with, we're just not guaranteed a "when". So the introspection question is: does it work for you now? If certain features don't change, is it still usable? That's what's most important. Also keep in mind that Reason functions very differently to other DAWs, so the implementation of certain things is often not as 'simple' as we may think it is.
Again, all good points!

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guitfnky
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27 Jun 2018

totally with you on the desire to have a better sense of what they’re up to/what vision or direction they plan on taking. as someone who’s bought every upgrade since 5, all I can say, to maybe assuage some of your fears, is that they’ve always held their cards close to the vest, and still, they’ve pretty consistently delivered on the things that people have been clamoring for with each new release.

naturally, not everyone has gotten everything on their wish list at every release, but they’ve been good at knocking the big ticket stuff out fairly regularly. I just hope that when 11 is announced, some of those workflow and sequencer improvements have found their way to the top of the list.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

jlgrimes
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27 Jun 2018

I kind of agree, they should be a little more vocal when they can. I understand though about certain situations when they can't though, but company interaction with customers can ease the customers. People in the end just want to know their issues are being worked on. That said if they announced everything they were thinking, they probably wouldn't be able to get anything done.

They have always been pretty quiet about releases (until they make a grand announcement). To be honest though most DAW companies are like this. I rarely see Ableton come on their forums except right before a release. Ableton is pretty quiet as well. Props are pretty similar in that regard. Sonar was fairly quiet, although I have seen times where they would occaisionally announce on a forum they were working on a certain feature, if it was a bug they were actually pretty open about it. Reaper is probably the most interactive, they make announcements of breakthroughs and even sometimes issues with the program but even they go through a quiet mode and might be silent on certain issues.

jlgrimes
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27 Jun 2018

I kind of agree, they should be a little more vocal when they can. I understand though about certain situations when they can't though, but company interaction with customers can ease the customers. People in the end just want to know their issues are being worked on. That said if they announced everything they were thinking, they probably wouldn't be able to get anything done.

They have always been pretty quiet about releases (until they make a grand announcement). To be honest though most DAW companies are like this. I rarely see Ableton come on their forums except right before a release. Ableton is pretty quiet as well. Props are pretty similar in that regard. Sonar was fairly quiet, although I have seen times where they would occaisionally announce on a forum they were working on a certain feature, if it was a bug they were actually pretty open about it. Reaper is probably the most interactive, they make announcements of breakthroughs and even sometimes issues with the program but even they go through a quiet mode and might be silent on certain issues.

But I think DAW companies being more vocal is not just a Props issue but an issue across the board.


I do think v10 surprised many users who were expecting mainly workflow improvements and got very little.


That said other DAW companies do this to a degree. Almost after every release on any DAW will be alot of upset people. Major updates on most DAWS are relatively infrequent and people sit out on many features and when it comes to a conclusion that a certain user's top feature didn't make it, people tend to get mad.


I remember when Sonar lacked a metronome, it took two or three version updates for them to get it. Sonar also being a midi sequencer lacked Auto Quantize (Something even Reason v1 had). They didn't get that until about v5 or v6. Ableton still lacks comping (Something Reason implemented with Record v1), and Ableton been in the audio game much longer. Many DAWS decide not to update certain things which often leaves people scratching their heads.

I remember Sonar tended to focus on Audio updates a little more than midi. But I guess it is a marketing thing.

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splangie
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27 Jun 2018

Raveshaper wrote:
19 Jun 2018
On August 31st of this year, I am changing my password to this forum to a random string that I won't write down and retiring completely from the ecosystem.
Like a ketchup commercial. Anticipation; it's making you wait.

danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

27 Jun 2018

splangie wrote:
27 Jun 2018
Raveshaper wrote:
19 Jun 2018
On August 31st of this year, I am changing my password to this forum to a random string that I won't write down and retiring completely from the ecosystem.
Like a ketchup commercial. Anticipation; it's making you wait.
When I read this days ago I thought... doesn't really matter what password you type in.... all you have to do is click "Forgotten Password" and you are back in. So hardly a threat to say it will stop you ever returning.

Fellow Reasontalker's - be warned - Raveshaper might (will??) come back (via Forgot Password) in September for another reactionary topic! What will it be? How about... "Reason 11 is the do'g's b****cks - I'm in LOVE again".
Check my Soundcloud:

antic604

28 Jun 2018

danc wrote:
27 Jun 2018
Fellow Reasontalker's - be warned - Raveshaper might (will??) come back (via Forgot Password) in September for another reactionary topic! What will it be? How about... "Reason 11 is the do'g's b****cks - I'm in LOVE again".
Not to be nitpicky, but Props said "no paid upgrade this year" which means we won't see v11 this year. Unless you meant Sept 2019 :)

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WasteLand
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28 Jun 2018

there is no perfect DAW, or ITB instrument. that's a fact.
and there is always biggest problem; everyone has a different approach.

i worked with reason 1, i loved it, but it wasn't for me, i stayed with "tape like" music making with cooledit.

now, years (years!) later, i have again a studio, with many different possibilities.

i bought reason 10, because of the nektar panorama p1 i bought (a perfect combination, especially because of the community support here on reason talk).

so, i use reason different then most people here, i think, perhaps not. the center remains cubase (and yes it ain't perfect, but it is an endless working enviroment, for me.)

i use reason now to take a different approach then a normally do, i learn from it, i can make things that i won't make in cubase, or maschine (or the softube modular..).

the learning curve isn't that big, for very complex combinators and patches perhaps, but then also, i understand the more complex features.

i haven't discovered all possibilities, i.e. used them.. and the synths are great!

the nektar panorama p1 i bought for cubase, but it isn't fully integrated for cubase, yet, no prob, enough controllers.
it was not the only reason; the grain synth and europa are wonderfull. and thor..

the workflow in reason, i like. also i like the workflow in cubase and (yes) even in maschine.

i feel i have the best of three worlds...

because i skipped a lot of years, and yes, cubase can frustrate me, because of the bugs, but steinberg crashes them, with maintenance updates. so i do not experience the limitations of cubase, after some maintenance updates.

i bough, by the way, reason second hand, for the price (a little less...) of the upgrade price. and got also a free vst, afterwards... europa...

so i am biased.

the modular, approach i like very much, the players, effects, utilities, are very usefull. and i am going to be more modular..

reason is an environment i like to experiment, and i only scratched the surface... i use the sequencer, even when i rewire it to cubase. because i am an automation addict... the limitations of the sequencer doesn't bother me, because, the limitations are the environment. like maschine has is limitations, and that is a challenge, or better, it makes you work differently and brings you other types of layering sounds, patterns, etc. maschine is for me cooledit (not the multitrack possibilities, that a i never used), a tape like ma(s)chine. layering, effects, re-sampling, etc.

sometimes a "bounce" a track or track into cubase, by the way. and yes that is for me the real sequencer.

reason is completely different, like monty python..., but it gives me pleasure, and it opens new ways to make music.

i invested in controllers, i build my own computer, i have a nice interface, a great pre-amp (although the pre-amps of the motu are very good, in my opinion, but i am used to my pre-amp, i very unknown, but a pre-amp with great capabilities, roland mmp-2), i invested in a lot of software (sometimes second licensies, or/and via sales or crossgrade offers), so i have many ways to do things.

perhaps that is the reason, that i can have fun, even when a arturia plugin constantly crashes on automation (arturia is aware of it, now... and there is luckily a workaround.. the vst2 version instead of the vst3 plugin version..), and also automap, i like it very much, has sometimes its problems, it is also a very complex setup i have.
Win 10 Pro. R11 suite + R12. Nektar Panorama p1. Ryzen 9 5900X. Cubase Pro 11, Bitwig Studio 4.4, Reaper 6.68, Ableton Live 11 Suite. RME Hammerfall DSP Multiface.

https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

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kimothebeatmaker
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29 Jun 2018

There is a perfect DAW...and it's name is Logic Pro X.

Reason has been surpassed by even FL Studio in terms of workflow and features. I love Reason, been on it since Reason 3, and now I have reason 9.5. It's still a great tool, but there are definitely alot better choices out there for people who have a blank canvas to start with. The only reason I still use Reason is because 1. i already paid for it. 2. im familiar with it. 3. invested too much into rack extensions. 4. i support the company.

With that being said, I don't use it as often as I used to since Ive got my hands on the newest Logic Pro X. AMAZING piece of software, and comes with a great deal of instruments. Customizable hotkeys, batch fades, automation curves, instant tape stop effect, great stock plugins, and super stable on my old ass 2009 mac pro.
"Cocaine and Prostitutes"

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tc13
Posts: 82
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29 Jun 2018

kimothebeatmaker wrote:
29 Jun 2018
There is a perfect DAW...and it's name is Logic Pro X.
.
And if you don't have a mac?
(I still have a G5 and Logic 8, and hopefully it will give me a couple of more years) :shock:

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Krell
Posts: 73
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29 Jun 2018

kimothebeatmaker wrote:
29 Jun 2018
There is a perfect DAW...and it's name is Logic Pro X.
Actually it's called Bitwig :lol:
Reason 12 // Bitwig 4 // Live 11 // Logic Pro X // Fabfilter // Soundtoys // Arturia // Vintage Hardware

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kimothebeatmaker
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Location: Texas

29 Jun 2018

Well there you go. Bitwig for pc, lpx for Mac. Next question.
"Cocaine and Prostitutes"

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Krell
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Joined: 06 Aug 2017

30 Jun 2018

I'm on a Mac and also run LPX. LPX is a great DAW no doubt and a steal if you're a Mac user. I think we're reaching a point where all the top DAWs are getting so good that you can build a strong case for any of them and it comes down to how you gel with it really. Certainly a great time to be a computer based muso thats for sure!
Reason 12 // Bitwig 4 // Live 11 // Logic Pro X // Fabfilter // Soundtoys // Arturia // Vintage Hardware

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kimothebeatmaker
Posts: 105
Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Location: Texas

30 Jun 2018

Yep at 200 dollars it is a no brained. It’s as cheap as Fl studio with more features and sounds than cubase it pro tools. It’s great at both midi and audio. Last time I tried logic was 5 on a pc before they went Mac only. This new logic is amazing and I don’t think I will use another daw ever again...besides reason ofcourse!
"Cocaine and Prostitutes"

ShawnG
Posts: 120
Joined: 31 Aug 2015

02 Jul 2018

LPX is an excellent DAW, and if you already have a mac its a no brainer. It is not perfect though, not by a mile. Plenty of features are surpassed in other daws, or missing entirely in logic (clip launcher, chord track, etc...). And of course the big one is that it requires overpriced hardware to run, which is why it sits there on my apple account with no mac to run it on any more. Its roughly equivalent to cubase in features, with more sounds, and slightly easier to use, but that's it.

It would win my vote for "most complete single software package" tho with all the included plugs, you could definitely buy that and nothing else and have everything you need, but perfect? Not a chance.

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