Using Saturation instead of Compressor (vid)

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RandomSkratch
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10 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
On something like a kick, I find subtle parallel saturation to be key to keeping the original “oomf” in that you only add what is missing (rather than distort the entire signal). By saturating only a narrow band of frequencies (as you can with ColoringEQ) you control exactly what is saturated and exactly by how much and control how much of that saturation is blended back with the original signal (with or without EQ).

Did that answer your question, or did I misunderstand something?



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Nope you got it. I didn't know if some effects didn't have the same effect if used in parallel.

I saw you have some videos demonstrating ColoringEQ on your channel (that I surprisingly wasn't subscribed to!)
Thanks!

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

RobC wrote:
10 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
10 Jun 2018
Theres a reason rock guitar players only play a 5th, it's not JUST because they don't know music theory ;)
Distorting chords can have really cool results. Gladly, technology allows us to change the scale afterwards.

I only play keys... and forgot music theory... xD
Sure it can, pressing all keys on a synth at the same time can, too.

RobC
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11 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
11 Jun 2018
RobC wrote:
10 Jun 2018


Distorting chords can have really cool results. Gladly, technology allows us to change the scale afterwards.

I only play keys... and forgot music theory... xD
Sure it can, pressing all keys on a synth at the same time can, too.
I mean, the kind of distortion with a 2 note chord (can't recall it for shiz xD), or a bass where there's an octave difference, won't sound like a mess. You create "ghost" notes (not in the regular sense) ~ the effect is like a surprising player on its own. The more distortion, the more apparent; or we can make it just subtle.

I've composed with chord + bass notes and was one of my favorite compositions.

As for the sarcasm, even that can have interesting sounds.

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

RobC wrote:
11 Jun 2018
I mean, the kind of distortion with a 2 note chord (can't recall it for shiz xD), or a bass where there's an octave difference, won't sound like a mess. You create "ghost" notes (not in the regular sense) ~ the effect is like a surprising player on its own. The more distortion, the more apparent; or we can make it just subtle.

I've composed with chord + bass notes and was one of my favorite compositions.

As for the sarcasm, even that can have interesting sounds.
The "problem" is that distortion creates overtones. You get 5s 7s and even 9s in that distortion. So the more base notes / fundamentals you have to begin with the more you end up with after applying distortion - which creates dissonances.

RobC
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11 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
11 Jun 2018
RobC wrote:
11 Jun 2018
I mean, the kind of distortion with a 2 note chord (can't recall it for shiz xD), or a bass where there's an octave difference, won't sound like a mess. You create "ghost" notes (not in the regular sense) ~ the effect is like a surprising player on its own. The more distortion, the more apparent; or we can make it just subtle.

I've composed with chord + bass notes and was one of my favorite compositions.

As for the sarcasm, even that can have interesting sounds.
The "problem" is that distortion creates overtones. You get 5s 7s and even 9s in that distortion. So the more base notes / fundamentals you have to begin with the more you end up with after applying distortion - which creates dissonances.
It has limitations, but that's part of the fun. I didn't say it's like serious composition, it's like messing around with (rather messed up) players.

If somebody has an okay composition based on 2 note chords, they can spice it up with distortion. Check each individually. Like the result? Keep it. If another sounds off, leave it as is. Hell, one can chop the whole thing up, make a rex loop, and do it with distortion for real, making the loop switch between clean notes, and distorted ones (with adjusted loudness of course).

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

RobC wrote:
11 Jun 2018
It has limitations
Tehe.. "Distortion has limitations" :lol:

RobC
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11 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
11 Jun 2018
RobC wrote:
11 Jun 2018
It has limitations
Tehe.. "Distortion has limitations" :lol:
I meant that the resulted notes aren't always desired! Things are rather 'fixed'.

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

Distortions has limitations, limiters have distortion, nothing is perfect ;)

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Marco Raaphorst
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11 Jun 2018

weird thing though: when overdriving sine waves you turn the nice sounding since waves into squarewaves. this never sounds like compression to me.

I know the distortion is the result of the overdriving the signal, but it doesn't always sounds like compression though. often the tone becomes MORE aggresive and more spikey. see the sine into squarewave example I am giving.

saturation is an art form :) I am playing guitar so you know.

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
11 Jun 2018
weird thing though: when overdriving sine waves you turn the nice sounding since waves into squarewaves. this never sounds like compression to me.

I know the distortion is the result of the overdriving the signal, but it doesn't always sounds like compression though. often the tone becomes MORE aggresive and more spikey. see the sine into squarewave example I am giving.

saturation is an art form :) I am playing guitar so you know.
Usually compression isn't that fast so it doesn't actually cut all of the "wave tops", only when it's attack is "in progress" so to speak. Thats why you usually use a fast attack to compress high frequency content and a slow attack to compress bass content. The typical values correlate directly to the frequency of the compressed waves.

Image

And obviously it gets more "spikey" when it distorts - quite literally. Those "edges" in the saw ARE the high frequencies - the added harmonics.

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selig
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11 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:weird thing though: when overdriving sine waves you turn the nice sounding since waves into squarewaves. this never sounds like compression to me.

I know the distortion is the result of the overdriving the signal, but it doesn't always sounds like compression though. often the tone becomes MORE aggresive and more spikey. see the sine into squarewave example I am giving.

saturation is an art form :) I am playing guitar so you know.
One way to measure compression is to measure the crest factor, or the difference between the peak level and the average (RMS or VU) level. Higher numbers mean less compressed.

A sine wave has a crest factor of around 3 dB while a square wave has a crest factor of 0 dB.

So by that metric yes, more compressed for sure!

For guitarists, more distortion = more sustain. The only way to get sustain from a guitar is to reduce dynamic range, or “compression”.

But sometimes the addition of so many more harmonics masks the compression aspects of distortion/overdrive.

Would love to see examples of harmonic addition without affecting the dynamic range - don’t know if it’s possible, but I’m assuming it’s not.

Finally, not all compression “sounds” like compression - depends on how we have all learned what compression sounds like. For example, I don’t think upwards compression “sounds” like compression, because I learned that something that sounds compressed has obvious artifacts such as an enhanced attack and rising decay (think: Beatles drums for release or piano for attack).


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Marco Raaphorst
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11 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
11 Jun 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
11 Jun 2018
weird thing though: when overdriving sine waves you turn the nice sounding since waves into squarewaves. this never sounds like compression to me.

I know the distortion is the result of the overdriving the signal, but it doesn't always sounds like compression though. often the tone becomes MORE aggresive and more spikey. see the sine into squarewave example I am giving.

saturation is an art form :) I am playing guitar so you know.
Usually compression isn't that fast so it doesn't actually cut all of the "wave tops", only when it's attack is "in progress" so to speak. Thats why you usually use a fast attack to compress high frequency content and a slow attack to compress bass content. The typical values correlate directly to the frequency of the compressed waves.

Image

And obviously it gets more "spikey" when it distorts - quite literally. Those "edges" in the saw ARE the high frequencies - the added harmonics.
Reason's peak compressor distorts like crazy as well. I think it's a Reason irregularity which can sound cool but it's a bug because it wasn't part of the SSL if I am correct. Although I always thought it was since peak compression sound like "shopping head of" turning sines into squares.

I think in most cases the RMS value goes up when using saturation devices. But the tone can become more lively because of the overtones. Saturation is super complex imo. Art form stuff :)

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normen
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11 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
11 Jun 2018
Reason's peak compressor distorts like crazy as well. I think it's a Reason irregularity which can sound cool but it's a bug because it wasn't part of the SSL if I am correct. Although I always thought it was since peak compression sound like "shopping head of" turning sines into squares.

I think in most cases the RMS value goes up when using saturation devices. But the tone can become more lively because of the overtones. Saturation is super complex imo. Art form stuff :)
Oh distortion is fascinating, especially when the harmonics start to work together and suddenly you have new notes appearing. I guess you know that effect that when you put a few guitars with simple power chords together there suddenly seems to be a "choir" singing another note in the background. That way a song kind of writes itself ;) Theres a lot of that going on in rock from AC/DC to Joe Satriani - sometimes they use it and sometimes its just there, lingering ^^

So many songs about that as well - "Soul of Distortion" etc. - really nothing beats a loud distorted power chord ;)

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selig
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11 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote: Reason's peak compressor distorts like crazy as well. I think it's a Reason irregularity which can sound cool but it's a bug because it wasn't part of the SSL if I am correct. Although I always thought it was since peak compression sound like "shopping head of" turning sines into squares.

I think in most cases the RMS value goes up when using saturation devices. But the tone can become more lively because of the overtones. Saturation is super complex imo. Art form stuff :)
The SSL distorting is based on what Norman posted. The lower the frequency, the more harmonic content. Is related to time constants, with faster time constants = more distortion overall. BTW, I had to use extreme settings to get this amount of distortion…
Screen Shot 2018-06-11 at 9.58.25 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-11 at 9.58.25 AM.png (45.8 KiB) Viewed 1875 times
CompVsDist.gif
CompVsDist.gif (326.23 KiB) Viewed 1889 times
This gif shows that as frequency increases (by one octave at a time), the level of the added harmonic content decreases. This examples starts with sine wave, so any harmonics are added by the SSL compression (and exaggerated by increasing the gain of the resultant signal significantly so we can easily see the additional harmonic content).

[EDIT: 2nd line of text on gif should read "First OVERTONE" or "SECOND HARMONIC", not "FIRST HARMONIC"]

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RandomSkratch
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11 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
Usually compression isn't that fast so it doesn't actually cut all of the "wave tops", only when it's attack is "in progress" so to speak. Thats why you usually use a fast attack to compress high frequency content and a slow attack to compress bass content. The typical values correlate directly to the frequency of the compressed waves.
This sounds like one of those unspoken points of wisdom to use as starting points when compressing. I never would have thought about this but it makes sense.

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selig
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11 Jun 2018

RandomSkratch wrote:
11 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
Usually compression isn't that fast so it doesn't actually cut all of the "wave tops", only when it's attack is "in progress" so to speak. Thats why you usually use a fast attack to compress high frequency content and a slow attack to compress bass content. The typical values correlate directly to the frequency of the compressed waves.
This sounds like one of those unspoken points of wisdom to use as starting points when compressing. I never would have thought about this but it makes sense.
When you work with a multi-band compressor it makes sense quickly IMO!
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Marco Raaphorst
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11 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
11 Jun 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote: Reason's peak compressor distorts like crazy as well. I think it's a Reason irregularity which can sound cool but it's a bug because it wasn't part of the SSL if I am correct. Although I always thought it was since peak compression sound like "shopping head of" turning sines into squares.

I think in most cases the RMS value goes up when using saturation devices. But the tone can become more lively because of the overtones. Saturation is super complex imo. Art form stuff :)
The SSL distorting is based on what Norman posted. The lower the frequency, the more harmonic content. Is related to time constants, with faster time constants = more distortion overall. BTW, I had to use extreme settings to get this amount of distortion…
Screen Shot 2018-06-11 at 9.58.25 AM.png

CompVsDist.gif

This gif shows that as frequency increases (by one octave at a time), the level of the added harmonic content decreases. This examples starts with sine wave, so any harmonics are added by the SSL compression (and exaggerated by increasing the gain of the resultant signal significantly so we can easily see the additional harmonic content).

[EDIT: 2nd line of text on gif should read "First OVERTONE" or "SECOND HARMONIC", not "FIRST HARMONIC"]

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aha, dynamic SSL distortion! cool!

jlgrimes
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12 Jun 2018

RandomSkratch wrote:
08 Jun 2018
I came across this video of someone using a saturation device in place of a compressor to get a bit more headroom in the mix. Just wondering how common this is (because you know everyone on the internet is an expert...) and whether or not it's possible to do with any built in Reason devices? I'm guessing the MClass Limiter with the limiting section turned off and soft clip on?

Saturation rocks.

Alot of times it is better than compression as it can add frequencies, reduce transients.

If your drums lack much dynamics (quite common for electronic drums) but still need impact, saturation can work wonders.

Saturation like compression comes in many flavors and Reason has several.

I love Scream, Pulverized, Audiomatic.

deepndark
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13 Jun 2018

My master section effect chain both, saturates and compresses the source.
The final version of this also uses ReaXComp, which you can get for free here: http://reaper.fm/reaplugs/

The actual Dopetank Mastering Combi - get it here it's FREE!:
http://www.reflexion-x.com/downloads/Do ... ne_X11.cmb

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napynap
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13 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
09 Jun 2018
jimmyklane wrote:Saturation actually DOES compress the signal. Soft clipping will round off peaks just like a limiter does. The free Softube Saturation Knob sounds really nice and allows some great tricks to emulate tape like saturating the high end first (stereo imager with a saturation knob on each band, with neutral or save low on the low band and save high on the upper band). My drums and even entire mixes often have several forms of saturation applied....but subtle, where it’s not overdrive or distortion. Just gentle compression.
I second what Jimmy says!

Saturation could be considered an extreme form of compression, on a spectrum where low-ratio/slow time constants compression techniques/devices are at one end, limiting is in the middle, and hard clipping (saturation/distortion) at the other.

What they all have in common is that they affect the dynamic range and to some degree, distort the waveform/introduce harmonics. The better compressors add the least harmonic content, the better saturation and distortion devices add the most (or specific) harmonic content.

All are considered to be non-linear with regards to level, which simply means they respond differently according to input level.

I swear by using saturation instead of, or along side of compression for getting tracks to sound louder in a mix without increasing peak level. This is nothing new. in the analog world you achieve this by driving devices or tape a little hotter, but still not enough to sound “distorted”.

In the digital domain I tend to use more parallel saturation for subtlety - ColoringEQ is based on this very concept!
(Shameless plug…)
:)


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Good info Selig! Thank you.
visit http://www.napynap.com to learn more about me. Thank you.

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Marco Raaphorst
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17 Jun 2018

I discovered this myself, not even such a long time ago. I feel a bit silly to discover that this is more or less common knowledge. On the other hand it is nice to discover these things in a naif way, just but experimentation and making mistakes, all by myself. This is how I discovered many things about saturation in general. Really coming from a 'I know nothing' point of view.

Here's a video I made a few years ago. Using The Echo for saturaton (great device for odd harmonics!):


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