any success re-amping with vst's?

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WeLoveYouToo
Posts: 202
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Location: portland, or

22 May 2018

i have been experimenting with reamping recently
i read alot of tutorials on how to re-amp a dry signal, but that seems kinda pointless to me.
what i want is to be able to use vst's in place of certain pedals i don't have, like phaser and distortion etc, then feed that back into a clean amp and re mic it.

i have an interface with a dedicated re-amping input/ouput separate from the mic inputs, but i am getting computery feedback

i routed an audio track to the vst phaser and distortion (kazrog and gtr) as insert fx, set the input to my guitar input channel, and output i dragged a cable from "direct out" to the corresponding re-amping output in the audio i/o section of the rack.
(in my case, i enabled only monitor outputs 1-2 and the guitar output, so reason treats the guitar output as channel 3)

no grounding issues, both guitar and amp are connected to wall with hum-x, computer is on battery, only other cable is headhones

is re amping with processed guitars jsut not a thing? or am i gettign some sort of feedback from my hardware i have yet to isolate?

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amcjen
Posts: 211
Joined: 14 Apr 2017

22 May 2018

Yes, this is totally an engineering pattern that works in Reason. The only gotcha is that you are bound to the latency of your interface if you want to reamp in real time while playing.

I tend to record every one of my guitar tracks dry as well as effected, so that I can reamp it again later if I want to do more things to it. My setup goes:

Guitar -> (external FX if desired) -> into two audio tracks in Reason, one dry, one effected.

Then when reamping I use the Direct Out of my dry guitar channel and send it out the hardware interface to the external FX, and back into another input on the interface. You can do this over and over and keep layering tracks. You’ll just need to nudge your tracks for latency if they are off.

(Interestingly, this became such an important part of my workflow I invested in a new audio interface with the lowest latency I could find so I could do this without nudging. I love it now.)

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

22 May 2018

I suggest basic troubleshooting techniques here. First, simplify the audio path and try to get it working. In this case, the simplest would be to open a new song, record a DI guitar for a few bars, then try to get that working in a re-amp configuration (rather than trying to ReAmp a live guitar).

In your case, obviously you only use the ReAmp OUTPUT (plug the direct output from the left channel of the guitar audio channel into Hardware Interface Audio Output 3), which then physically goes to the amp input. Then put a microphone on the amp, plug that into a mic input on your interface, and create an Audio Channel in Reason with the corresponding input.

Now follow the audio path:
First, check to see if you're getting signal to the amp. If so, check to see if you're getting the microphone signal back into the new Audio Channel (should be monitoring in the sequencer, and seeing level there).

If there's a problem at any step, recheck the signal path from the start, checking each point where there is an opportunity to having something set wrong, or plugged in wrong, and try different settings/routings until you find the problem!

Once you get the basic "loop" working, apply those setting to a more complex setup, knowing that any problems you have there will likely be somewhere in the additional channel/routing/etc. This is the process of elimination at this point; since you know the basic loop path works, you can assume any further problems arise from any additional routing etc.

Let us know how far you get, and come back with any further questions!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

22 May 2018

amcjen wrote:
22 May 2018
Yes, this is totally an engineering pattern that works in Reason. The only gotcha is that you are bound to the latency of your interface if you want to reamp in real time while playing.

I tend to record every one of my guitar tracks dry as well as effected, so that I can reamp it again later if I want to do more things to it. My setup goes:

Guitar -> (external FX if desired) -> into two audio tracks in Reason, one dry, one effected.

Then when reamping I use the Direct Out of my dry guitar channel and send it out the hardware interface to the external FX, and back into another input on the interface. You can do this over and over and keep layering tracks. You’ll just need to nudge your tracks for latency if they are off.

(Interestingly, this became such an important part of my workflow I invested in a new audio interface with the lowest latency I could find so I could do this without nudging. I love it now.)
Don't know if you already do this, but one tip (since Reason doesn't allow channel/track grouping) is to record the DI and Amp guitar to the left and right of a stereo Audio Channel. From there you can patch them to separate Mix Channels and mute the DI. The reason for this is that any edits you do will automatically be applied to both tracks, making it easier to ReAmp if the need arises!

Also, as concerns edits: sometimes I find it easier to re-edit the amp track after ReAmping the original, and sometimes it's easier to edit the DI track and then ReAmp (sometimes the amp sound "hides" the edits better). This approach gives you both options in case the first one you try doesn't give you the expected results.
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

22 May 2018

WeLoveYouToo wrote:
22 May 2018
i have been experimenting with reamping recently
i read alot of tutorials on how to re-amp a dry signal, but that seems kinda pointless to me.
what i want is to be able to use vst's in place of certain pedals i don't have, like phaser and distortion etc, then feed that back into a clean amp and re mic it.

i have an interface with a dedicated re-amping input/ouput separate from the mic inputs, but i am getting computery feedback

i routed an audio track to the vst phaser and distortion (kazrog and gtr) as insert fx, set the input to my guitar input channel, and output i dragged a cable from "direct out" to the corresponding re-amping output in the audio i/o section of the rack.
(in my case, i enabled only monitor outputs 1-2 and the guitar output, so reason treats the guitar output as channel 3)

no grounding issues, both guitar and amp are connected to wall with hum-x, computer is on battery, only other cable is headhones

is re amping with processed guitars jsut not a thing? or am i gettign some sort of feedback from my hardware i have yet to isolate?
Ok. Try this and see if it works. I’ve only ever sent pre-recorded tracks through revamp into amp and then record that with a mic.....

Instrument into instrument input on your interface. No hardware monitoring, use low latency buffer size and monitor through the VSTs in Reason. Route that monitored audio to the reamp output and into the amp, mic the amp and DO NOT monitor it. Optionally, you can attempt to monitor the open mic channel and see what that gets you. Honestly, I’ve never heard of doing this live, but somebody must have thought of and accomplished this in the past. Just make sure that you only have Reason monitoring on, and see if that fixes the feedback issue. Hopefully you can get latency low enough that it won’t effect your playing (like 64 samples).
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

22 May 2018

selig wrote:
22 May 2018
I suggest basic troubleshooting techniques here. First, simplify the audio path and try to get it working. In this case, the simplest would be to open a new song, record a DI guitar for a few bars, then try to get that working in a re-amp configuration (rather than trying to ReAmp a live guitar).

In your case, obviously you only use the ReAmp OUTPUT (plug the direct output from the left channel of the guitar audio channel into Hardware Interface Audio Output 3), which then physically goes to the amp input. Then put a microphone on the amp, plug that into a mic input on your interface, and create an Audio Channel in Reason with the corresponding input.

Now follow the audio path:
First, check to see if you're getting signal to the amp. If so, check to see if you're getting the microphone signal back into the new Audio Channel (should be monitoring in the sequencer, and seeing level there).

If there's a problem at any step, recheck the signal path from the start, checking each point where there is an opportunity to having something set wrong, or plugged in wrong, and try different settings/routings until you find the problem!

Once you get the basic "loop" working, apply those setting to a more complex setup, knowing that any problems you have there will likely be somewhere in the additional channel/routing/etc. This is the process of elimination at this point; since you know the basic loop path works, you can assume any further problems arise from any additional routing etc.

Let us know how far you get, and come back with any further questions!
:)
I 100% agree. Trying this with a pre-recorded track simplifies everything greatly. Although from a players standpoint I understand you want to “play to” the effects and amp.
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

User avatar
amcjen
Posts: 211
Joined: 14 Apr 2017

22 May 2018

selig wrote:
amcjen wrote:
22 May 2018
Yes, this is totally an engineering pattern that works in Reason. The only gotcha is that you are bound to the latency of your interface if you want to reamp in real time while playing.

I tend to record every one of my guitar tracks dry as well as effected, so that I can reamp it again later if I want to do more things to it. My setup goes:

Guitar -> (external FX if desired) -> into two audio tracks in Reason, one dry, one effected.

Then when reamping I use the Direct Out of my dry guitar channel and send it out the hardware interface to the external FX, and back into another input on the interface. You can do this over and over and keep layering tracks. You’ll just need to nudge your tracks for latency if they are off.

(Interestingly, this became such an important part of my workflow I invested in a new audio interface with the lowest latency I could find so I could do this without nudging. I love it now.)
Don't know if you already do this, but one tip (since Reason doesn't allow channel/track grouping) is to record the DI and Amp guitar to the left and right of a stereo Audio Channel. From there you can patch them to separate Mix Channels and mute the DI. The reason for this is that any edits you do will automatically be applied to both tracks, making it easier to ReAmp if the need arises!

Also, as concerns edits: sometimes I find it easier to re-edit the amp track after ReAmping the original, and sometimes it's easier to edit the DI track and then ReAmp (sometimes the amp sound "hides" the edits better). This approach gives you both options in case the first one you try doesn't give you the expected results.
:)
Selig, that’s brilliant. You are a wealth of knowledge. It’s a massive pain to keep them all lined up!

Totally going to do this now.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

22 May 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
22 May 2018
selig wrote:
22 May 2018
I suggest basic troubleshooting techniques here. First, simplify the audio path and try to get it working. In this case, the simplest would be to open a new song, record a DI guitar for a few bars, then try to get that working in a re-amp configuration (rather than trying to ReAmp a live guitar).

In your case, obviously you only use the ReAmp OUTPUT (plug the direct output from the left channel of the guitar audio channel into Hardware Interface Audio Output 3), which then physically goes to the amp input. Then put a microphone on the amp, plug that into a mic input on your interface, and create an Audio Channel in Reason with the corresponding input.

Now follow the audio path:
First, check to see if you're getting signal to the amp. If so, check to see if you're getting the microphone signal back into the new Audio Channel (should be monitoring in the sequencer, and seeing level there).

If there's a problem at any step, recheck the signal path from the start, checking each point where there is an opportunity to having something set wrong, or plugged in wrong, and try different settings/routings until you find the problem!

Once you get the basic "loop" working, apply those setting to a more complex setup, knowing that any problems you have there will likely be somewhere in the additional channel/routing/etc. This is the process of elimination at this point; since you know the basic loop path works, you can assume any further problems arise from any additional routing etc.

Let us know how far you get, and come back with any further questions!
:)
I 100% agree. Trying this with a pre-recorded track simplifies everything greatly. Although from a players standpoint I understand you want to “play to” the effects and amp.
Best way to do this "live" is to go old school IMO. Use a DI, taking the main output to a mic input into the DAW to record your "direct" sound, and sending the parallel 1/4" output on to the amp and recording that with a microphone as usual. The advantage here is everything is in perfect sync between the DI and the amp signal. Otherwise, you'll need to realign things after making the ReAmp round trip. This is basically how DIs are used live and in the studio when an amp is involved, and is perfect for this application.

If you want to add software FX on the signal before the amp, things get a little trickier, and you won't be able to negate the latency in that case since there will be two trips through the interface. But it should be workable, just not ideal (or simple!).
Selig Audio, LLC

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

22 May 2018

selig wrote:
22 May 2018
jimmyklane wrote:
22 May 2018


I 100% agree. Trying this with a pre-recorded track simplifies everything greatly. Although from a players standpoint I understand you want to “play to” the effects and amp.
Best way to do this "live" is to go old school IMO. Use a DI, taking the main output to a mic input into the DAW to record your "direct" sound, and sending the parallel 1/4" output on to the amp and recording that with a microphone as usual. The advantage here is everything is in perfect sync between the DI and the amp signal. Otherwise, you'll need to realign things after making the ReAmp round trip. This is basically how DIs are used live and in the studio when an amp is involved, and is perfect for this application.

If you want to add software FX on the signal before the amp, things get a little trickier, and you won't be able to negate the latency in that case since there will be two trips through the interface. But it should be workable, just not ideal (or simple!).
Actually, let me amplify Selig’s point.

Record the DI track into the DAW, and the mic’ed amp into another channel as well. Take the DI track, out your VSTs on it, and use your interface reamp to send that signal back to the amp to record with the same (or another) mic. Now you get to play live, no latency, and hear your amp, and you’ll get to hear your effected, DI’ed track live through the amp when you play that back!
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

User avatar
WeLoveYouToo
Posts: 202
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Location: portland, or

29 May 2018

hey, i appreciate the feedback, but i need to simplify my question since it hasnt really been answered.

the only reason i bring up feedback issues is because i wanted to know if these can be a result of using vst fx instead of physical pedals.
i have since contacted apogee and sent in my ensemble for repair.

regardless of feedback though, nobody seems to mention using vst fx on a dry signal, then outputting that into an actual tube amp and mic-ing it.

lets take input/output delay out of the equation, as well as any hardware issues that are possible.

in a perfectly grounded and working setup, is rcording a di guitar, running it thru say, waves gtr pedal effects as a vst in reason, then routing that into reason’s corresponding output for my physical guitar reamping output, into an amp, then recording that amp with a mic going to give me (practically) the same sound as using foot pedals?

i ask because since i cannot find mention of anyone reamping using vst fx, only post daw fx, i figured there must be some reaon against this setup.

not a single reamping tutorial online i could find mentioning using in-computer processing for a signal sent out to an amp, so i assuemd this might mess with the impadence or something.

User avatar
WeLoveYouToo
Posts: 202
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Location: portland, or

29 May 2018

oh, nevermind, i completely missed the last comment by selig, that answers my question.
groovy.

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