Is Europa on par with Serum...or even better?

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Southgate
Posts: 127
Joined: 05 Feb 2016

10 May 2018

miscend wrote:
09 May 2018
aeox wrote:
09 May 2018
Serum has way better FM capabilities, so does eXpanse.
That’s what FM synths (eg Dexed, PX7 etc) are for. I never expect any synth to be a master of all trades.
Yep..

I have FM4 and Dexed too!

Southgate
Posts: 127
Joined: 05 Feb 2016

10 May 2018

flightONE wrote:
10 May 2018
I was about to complain that Europa needed good comb filter for the master section... but since this is Reason I threw in a Thor and a Combinator and kept chugging along... this is exactly why I keep coming back to Reason over and over :puf_bigsmile: ...
Gotta love Reason for that reason.... :lol:

Southgate
Posts: 127
Joined: 05 Feb 2016

10 May 2018

Thanks for all of the replies (biased or non-biased)! :lol:

...it's good to talk...
Last edited by Southgate on 10 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.

Southgate
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10 May 2018

What an amazing array of synths that we have at our finger tips nestled in Reason 10...

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aeox
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10 May 2018

Southgate wrote:
10 May 2018
miscend wrote:
09 May 2018


That’s what FM synths (eg Dexed, PX7 etc) are for. I never expect any synth to be a master of all trades.
Yep..

I have FM4 and Dexed too!
You can't load wavetables into those synths though. That's why Serum and eXpanse are so good because you can FM with wavetables.

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chimp_spanner
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10 May 2018

I would've liked a bit more control over FM in Europa. Although in practice I would probably have ended up using simple waveforms as modulators. I've tried FM'ing between wavetables in Serum and the results are often very brittle and grainy. Usually I use a complex WT as the carrier, and something simple like a sine or square (with a little bit of sync modulation) as the modulator. I'd like to be able to that in Europa but I'm still getting some fantastic sounds out of it. The sample playback is really nice and smooth too!

EnGee
Posts: 20
Joined: 05 Mar 2018

10 May 2018

Southgate wrote:
09 May 2018
I have Serum, Synthmaster One, ReSpire, Dune 2, Iris 2, Parsec 2, U-he synths, FM4 and a whole host of REs and Vsti. I am wondering...in a dizzy state...have we reached a synth Nirvana? Do I simply just concentrate on Europa and forget the rest? I'm p****d off learning synth after synth. I'd rather just master one synth...( I realize that each synth has it's own 'THANG' going on...

I really wanna just make good music...but spend my life looking for synths and functionality and, and, and...

...does that nonsense stop here? I hope so...

Sorry...but everything is soooo saturated...

Europa really is amazing. I might just have to draw the line and say..."let's master this one, if nothing else".
I felt the same about Europa (and most other synths I have!). I have more or less the same punch that you have, but I don't use them all. To be honest I only need 2 or three of them, but 'synth greed' has filled my heart :lol:

Anyway, as a result, those 20+ synths made me choose about 5 as favourites. I tried to master them all, but it I realised that it is better to invest in making music instead. When I'm busy making music, I really only need 2 or 3 synths/instruments per song. I even can do with just one synth! So, I suggest to use one that you really like and try to find all the sounds you are after (while you make music, not before). Only go for another synth/instrument if you can't find this sound in the current synth. This way, you begin to know that synth very well.

Europa is an excellent synth and it's the one to go for me when I am in Reason. NI Massive/FM8 are my to go ones in VST world. I'm trying to use mostly Reason devices now when inside Reason, so I disabled the VST support. Maybe this way I would concentrate more on Europa and Thor ;)

Windows 10 with Reason Studio 12, Live Suite 11, Bitwig Studio 4, Studio One Pro v5 and Cubase 12 Pro

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Ahornberg
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10 May 2018

Would be interesting not to compare synths by features but by how fun it is to make music.
Maybe join the one-synth-EP-challenge viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7497676&hilit=one+synth+challenge

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aeox
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10 May 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
10 May 2018
Would be interesting not to compare synths by features but by how fun it is to make music.
Maybe join the one-synth-EP-challenge viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7497676&hilit=one+synth+challenge
They are all fun to make music though. What makes some more fun than others is the amount of useful features that they have.

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TritoneAddiction
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10 May 2018

I guess there are different ways of looking at this. I prefer smaller more niched synths like FM4 and Legend. Not typically a fan of REs trying to include every option there is known to mankind. I'd rather have 4 niche synths that complement each other.
If only just for switching synth GUIs every now and then.

I see the point of "mastering" a synth. But personally I tend to get bored with looking at a certain GUI after 2-3 tracks with the same instrument. And also whenever I feel like I'm getting close to learn a synth pretty well I often want to move on to something new and exciting anyway.

I find synths like Omnisphere pretty off-putting, not because of the quality or lack of capabilities but because it's just too big.

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EnochLight
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10 May 2018

Southgate wrote:
09 May 2018
I have Serum, Synthmaster One, ReSpire, Dune 2, Iris 2, Parsec 2, U-he synths, FM4 and a whole host of REs and Vsti. I am wondering...in a dizzy state...have we reached a synth Nirvana? Do I simply just concentrate on Europa and forget the rest?
I have all of the same synths, and to be frank - each one brings something unique to the table while at the same time having some crossover features. The beauty behind software is that - being a digital hoarder is nowhere near as bad as buying hardware!

That said, Europa's strength (much like Parsec) is also in its simplicity. It's far easier to program and coax good sound out of Europa (IMHO) than many other synths out there (Serum, SynthMaster, Dune 2 - I'm looking at you).

That said, synths like Serum have an extensive professional library to choose from, and an almost innumerable amount of 3rd party expansions available. If you're a preset-guy, then Serum (and many other VSTi) are going to offer you far, far more.

I suppose you need to ask yourself which is more important: simplicity or complexity? Then go from there...
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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miscend
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10 May 2018

aeox wrote:
09 May 2018
miscend wrote:
09 May 2018


That’s what FM synths (eg Dexed, PX7 etc) are for. I never expect any synth to be a master of all trades.
You can't load wavetables into those synths though. That's why Serum and eXpanse are so good because you can FM with wavetables.
It’s a poor mans FM with very few operators and not much flexibility. FM synthesis is pretty limitless you can create very complex waveforms with it.

ltbrunt00
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10 May 2018

To me it all boils down to the plugin that you can't live without.

For me it is the Legend, VK2, FX7, Thor and NI's Monark. I reach for those Synths almost every time. I have to force myself not to use them. I like Europa but for some reason I do not like the interface for Expanse. I couldn't really get into serum...
Reason, Nuendo, Studio One
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seqoi
Posts: 417
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

10 May 2018

pjeudy wrote:
09 May 2018
1. How did you get all those software? did you pay for them?

2. You say "I really wanna just make good music" Buying/pirating every synth that comes along has ZERO impact on your music being good.

I can not believe how much trash and assumption you put down on a user.

1. Why do you think anyone owe you to explain how they earn the money or get their software? What a rude way of responding to conversation. What? Am i to be blamed because i collected hardware and software synths over 15 years? Or you expect everyone is 15 year old and use mother credit card? Or downloading warez?

2. I mean what the hell??? So someone is having more software then you for whatever reason they have - and they get biblical touting from you on not using pirated software because all of a sudden - having a lot of tools automatically mean someone is using pirated tools?

Good lord what is happening here...

JerrelTheKing
Posts: 226
Joined: 31 Aug 2015

10 May 2018

pjeudy wrote:
09 May 2018
1. How did you get all those software? did you pay for them?

2. You say "I really wanna just make good music" Buying/pirating every synth that comes along has ZERO impact on your music being good.

3.having to spend $427 plus dollars on 2 or 3 synth alone would force you to learn 1 or 2 synths.The economics of it should force you to only learn a couple of synths. That's the side benefit from buying your software.

4. Your approach to owning Synth is all wrong !! I haven't reached a synth Nirvana...since I only have 3 Vst synths. You seem to be wanting the Synth to make the music for you...that will NEVER EVER happen.

5. Finally you want to make Music that you like? then it's easy just fallow those few steps to the letter:
a) Stay off the internet and VSTi purchasing sites or VST Cracked website
b) Listen to music that Inspire you
c) Lock yourself and your home studio and make music with the synth that you have
d) it might take you weeks/months or longer, but the limited synths that you have + the fact that you are spending time having fun experimenting trying succeeding and can't forget failing... will automatically lead you to better knowing your 1 -2 synth and a better understanding of producing engineering, ear training.

Those are about a billion times more important then the number of synth that you might be willing to pay for or pirate. You don't believe me ? look at the situation that you are in? you listed 8 plus instrument synth that you have access to right now, that push past or near one thousand dollars.....and yet your asking "should I master just one synth"?

Limit yourself for a month or 2 to just one Mono and one Polyphonic synth...and just blackout in the studio...forget Reason talk forget Gearslutz, KVR ect.... forget all that...and blackout in your studio...$1,000 in synth can't help you. Music fundamentals will, developing a workflow that allows you to create while BEING INSPIRED WILL HELP YOU ..not owning EUROPA or SERUM or what ever you might be lusting for.

Spend hours dissecting your favorite track...ask yourself questions :
How did they mix that bass so well....how do you like the dynamic effect.....why doesn't it sound muddy? try cutting your own music at "known Muddy frequency's" and see if you notice a similarity to a well produced track etc....those things are priceless and worth more then any synth you bought or pirated.
This post was out of line and unnecessary. The op needs an apology for this.

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aeox
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10 May 2018

miscend wrote:
10 May 2018
aeox wrote:
09 May 2018


You can't load wavetables into those synths though. That's why Serum and eXpanse are so good because you can FM with wavetables.
It’s a poor mans FM with very few operators and not much flexibility. FM synthesis is pretty limitless you can create very complex waveforms with it.
You'd be surprised :D

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plaamook
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10 May 2018

flightONE wrote:
10 May 2018
I was about to complain that Europa needed good comb filter for the master section... but since this is Reason I threw in a Thor and a Combinator and kept chugging along... this is exactly why I keep coming back to Reason over and over :puf_bigsmile: ...
Hmm.
That's exactly why I wish I could find a satisfying alternative to Reason often enough. Make a great synth and just not put a really ghreat comb filter on it for no good reason. Thats about as Reasonable as it gets...
Perpetual Reason 12 Beta Tester :reason:

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Or here.
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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

10 May 2018

Propellerhead does that on purpose.
That's where the wires come into play cuz you connect the module that has it to the one that doesn't.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

10 May 2018

How
did
you
get
all
those
software
?
did
you
pay
for
them
?
:cry:
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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pjeudy
Posts: 1559
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

10 May 2018

seqoi wrote:
10 May 2018

I can not believe how much trash and assumption you put down on a user.

1. Why do you think anyone owe you to explain how they earn the money or get their software? What a rude way of responding to conversation. What? Am i to be blamed because i collected hardware and software synths over 15 years? Or you expect everyone is 15 year old and use mother credit card? Or downloading warez?

2. I mean what the hell??? So someone is having more software then you for whatever reason they have - and they get biblical touting from you on not using pirated software because all of a sudden - having a lot of tools automatically mean someone is using pirated tools?

Good lord what is happening here...
4
JerrelTheKing wrote:
10 May 2018
This post was out of line and unnecessary. The op needs an apology for this.
esselfortium wrote:
09 May 2018
Europa is great and versatile. Lots of synths are great and versatile. Pick a synth that feels approachable to you and really dig into it, whether it's this one or something else.

pjeudy's advice is good, also.
FROM OP
Southgate wrote:
10 May 2018
I see where you are coming from...

20 years ago, I have to be honest (When I was broke as hell) I may have had a few cracked pieces of software. Being older and little more financially stable...I am proud to say that I have 100% legit software!

Your other points are very valid...and I do try to dissect every square inch of every bit that I listen to and create.

Cheers

;)
My opinion is that Propellerhead REASON needs a complete rewrite!
P.S: people should stop saying "No it won't happen" when referring to a complete rewrite of REASON. I have 3 letters for ya....VST
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:53 pm

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

10 May 2018

seqoi wrote:
10 May 2018
pjeudy wrote:
09 May 2018
1. How did you get all those software? did you pay for them?

2. You say "I really wanna just make good music" Buying/pirating every synth that comes along has ZERO impact on your music being good.

I can not believe how much trash and assumption you put down on a user.

1. Why do you think anyone owe you to explain how they earn the money or get their software? What a rude way of responding to conversation. What? Am i to be blamed because i collected hardware and software synths over 15 years? Or you expect everyone is 15 year old and use mother credit card? Or downloading warez?

2. I mean what the hell??? So someone is having more software then you for whatever reason they have - and they get biblical touting from you on not using pirated software because all of a sudden - having a lot of tools automatically mean someone is using pirated tools?

Good lord what is happening here...
The old PUF mindset is what is happening here. Contact sport. Sad.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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aeox
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10 May 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
10 May 2018
I would've liked a bit more control over FM in Europa. Although in practice I would probably have ended up using simple waveforms as modulators. I've tried FM'ing between wavetables in Serum and the results are often very brittle and grainy. Usually I use a complex WT as the carrier, and something simple like a sine or square (with a little bit of sync modulation) as the modulator. I'd like to be able to that in Europa but I'm still getting some fantastic sounds out of it. The sample playback is really nice and smooth too!
Interestingly I do the exact opposite; complex modulator and sine wave carrier. Just can't use anything too noisy and I feel this yields nice rich FM bass sounds.

eg



Suppose it depends on the type of sound you are going for!

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eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

11 May 2018

flightONE wrote:
10 May 2018
I was about to complain that Europa needed good comb filter for the master section... but since this is Reason I threw in a Thor and a Combinator and kept chugging along... this is exactly why I keep coming back to Reason over and over :puf_bigsmile: ...
There is two comb filters (+/-) in the spectral filter section of Europa.

antic604

11 May 2018

pjeudy wrote:
09 May 2018
1. How did you get all those software? did you pay for them?

2. You say "I really wanna just make good music" Buying/pirating every synth that comes along has ZERO impact on your music being good.

3.having to spend $427 plus dollars on 2 or 3 synth alone would force you to learn 1 or 2 synths.The economics of it should force you to only learn a couple of synths. That's the side benefit from buying your software.

4. Your approach to owning Synth is all wrong !! I haven't reached a synth Nirvana...since I only have 3 Vst synths. You seem to be wanting the Synth to make the music for you...that will NEVER EVER happen.

5. Finally you want to make Music that you like? then it's easy just fallow those few steps to the letter:
a) Stay off the internet and VSTi purchasing sites or VST Cracked website
b) Listen to music that Inspire you
c) Lock yourself and your home studio and make music with the synth that you have
d) it might take you weeks/months or longer, but the limited synths that you have + the fact that you are spending time having fun experimenting trying succeeding and can't forget failing... will automatically lead you to better knowing your 1 -2 synth and a better understanding of producing engineering, ear training.
First, WTF triggered the #1-4?

Second, while you make few valid points in #5 there, it's not like one approach is the correct one and every other is wrong. Some people have the money, prefer to go off of presets and get inspired seeing different synths / effects with different workflows in their Rack. If you only have 3 synths and know every nook and cranny of how they work, then more power to you! I envy the dedication & self-control, honestly! But if you think you're better - person, producer? - because of that, then reconsider your view because it's most likely not true... Luckily the OP is much more mature than you it seems.

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

11 May 2018

Someone mentioned Serum having loads of presets available - as a properly stock Reason device, hopefully there will eventually be lots of refills available for Europa just as there are for Thor.

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