What do Propellerhead staff do at work all day?

[Goodbye]

I’m Live 10 beta tester and every 1-4 week I get new beta version with a list of something added and improved. I can see they’re working all the time


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It's a real shame Propellerhead don't do this. There would be such an active community of testers. Instead they just use us to find bugs at the last minute while Mattias pretends they are really interested in our feedback. They follow the Apple approach of 'everything we do is great so we don't need user feedback because they'll never be able to improve on our own ideas'.

[bik44]

It's a real shame Propellerhead don't do this. There would be such an active community of testers.

But I must admit that Ableton is blind to the majority of changes proposed by users. They follow their own path. So it's not all that pink there


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[antic604]

I’m Live 10 beta tester and every 1-4 week I get new beta version with a list of something added and improved. I can see they’re working all the time

Indeed! They've actually brought back one of the features that was axed since v9 for which I campaigned a lot (my request was 3rd in terms of number of up-votes after audio comping & VST3 support!) and it felt awesome to do that, to feel part of the development process!

Bitwig also does public betas, with Google Group for users to participate.

So out of the 3 DAWs I use, Reason is the one that's 'exceptional' in not so positive way

[Goodbye]

It's a real shame Propellerhead don't do this. There would be such an active community of testers.

But I must admit that Ableton is blind to the majority of changes proposed by users. They follow their own path. So it's not all that pink there


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I believe it, but with Propellerhead there is literally no user-feedback taken into account whilst constantly repeating the mantra of "We're listening".

I've worked as a front-end developer for many years and one of the things that makes the difference between a really successful project and one that just ticks boxes is getting feedback from the people who will actually use the application - not bosses or line-managers or tastemakers or professional self-promoters, but the average person who uses the thing day in and day out. Without that feedback loop, development is done in a vacuum and the result will always be wanting.

This is one of the reasons I get so frustrated with Propellerhead. They portray themselves with this cuddly, friendly exterior with quirky videos and lots of mugging to the camera, but in reality there is a wall between them and their users and they couldn't care less what we think or say. I think its this disconnect that really gets me riled up. I mean Apple are similar, but they own the fact they are arseholes and they are constantly moving forward. They don't pretend to listen, whereas Propellerhead try and come off as if they care when they couldn't give a shit.

Does this mean Reason it a crap product? No of course not. They did some groundbreaking work in the past and we are all still here because of it. But if they'd just listen to their users they would have a massively improved product. I've never seen a project where listening to users made the product worse.

[Ostermilk]

My guess is that both of the Propellerhead staff spend their workday reading interesting threads like this one.

[chimp_spanner]

But I must admit that Ableton is blind to the majority of changes proposed by users. They follow their own path. So it's not all that pink there


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I believe it, but with Propellerhead there is literally no user-feedback taken into account whilst constantly repeating the mantra of "We're listening".

Not to repeat Bik but there's definitely some "grass is greener" at work here. Like I'm just getting heavily into Maschine MK3. Personally, I absolutely love it. It's hugely popular. Native Instruments are a MASSIVE company with a tonne of money. And yet a quick peek at their Facebook and forum posts and you'll see all the same stuff. "NI aren't listening to us, this is a joke, Maschine stops me from making music, I'm leaving, how long do I have to wait for this simple feature". Go to Steinberg, same deal "unprofessional garbage, what a joke, I'm going to Logic". Go to Ableton, same deal.

None of which is to say there aren't things I'd love to see implemented to make my favourite software even better. I'm in the "I believe it will come" camp But in any case no platform is gonna be perfect, or have every feature you want it to. And on the subject of development speed...look, I'm not a programmer. Not even close. But I get the impression it's very hard. Again, looking at NI as an example, you'd think they have near-limitless resources to do something like...implement linear audio recording. Nope; not happening. Not AFAIK anyway. But ya know, it is what it is. It's great at what it does. It's not trying to be anything else. Every DAW needs to carve out its own niche. Reason definitely has. If you need something else that another DAW offers, use it for that.

Oh and on the MP3 thing...it's definitely convenient in terms of sending demos to clients *but* having said that, 90% of my work is shared through dropbox. So if I render as a WAV to a shared folder, they'll have it in about 20 seconds. And I always, always have to deliver in 48/24 WAV. Don't think I've ever been asked for an MP3. Not saying it doesn't happen but, it's kinda rare in my experience.

[CR68]

i believe propellerheads is doing similar stuff like ableton with betas for special testers. i remember a mail, i think it was last year, where propellerheads is hunting for some "test pilots". so this people will test a lot more stuff then we know and i beleive it is similar to ableton like betas.

[antic604]

i believe propellerheads is doing similar stuff like ableton with betas for special testers. i remember a mail, i think it was last year, where propellerheads is hunting for some "test pilots". so this people will test a lot more stuff then we know and i beleive it is similar to ableton like betas.

Similar? Ableton was running an open - to owners of Live 9, maybe lower versions too - beta for 10 since mid Nov '17 up until it was released in Feb '18 (and it's still going), asking for feedback on features and bug reports. Many of the designers and developers were pretty active in the forums, discussing & explaining reasons for changes and also for not doing some of the stuff users requested. Sure, it wasn't always appreciated or understood, but at least there was/is an active dialogue going. It's very similar with Bitwig, that opens public beta for every point release. And they're only a team of 12, whereas - looking at LinkedIn - Props are closer to 60.

So it can be done, you can have a dialog with your users. You just need to want it.

[normen]

So if the Ableton team jumps off a cliff the Reason team is supposed to do that too? Sorry, just wanted to throw in some platitudes as well xD

[antic604]

So if the Ableton team jumps off a cliff the Reason team is supposed to do that too?

How on Earth did you come to this conclusion?

And BTW I'm not saying Ableton does only 'good' - the changes to how automation works in v10 singlehandedly made me not want to use their DAW anymore until they fix it, but what earned my respect with them is they've actually explained why they've made those changes: they wanted to provide more options for stuff to do with the clips from arranger page, noticed that lots of users get confused when clips are overlaid with automation lanes and are working on some undisclosed features. So they've split the content (clip editing / arranging) and automation modes to separate 'views', sort of like Logic does.

Now I might not be happy with the change (I was actually furious about it!) because this totally screws with my workflow, but I admire them coming forward and actually addressing the topic - they've decided to prefer some users over another group, but at least were clear about it. And right now in beta they're making some tweaks and changes that should keep both 'camps' happy.

Similarly with Bitwig, that recently admitted the performance issues some of the users - especially on OSX - have is related to the fact that they're using CPU to do all the graphics rendering through Cairo libraries, which are very poorly optimised for Macs (surprisingly, they work great under Linux). The choice was made in early days to facilitate small team being able to push the DAW on 3 OSes, but now it creates a problem with all the dynamic displays & modulators (and 4K screens) as drawing them eats into the audio processing. So they're working on a GPU acceleration for graphics, have the prototype working & are testing it right now to release ASAP.

So yeah, it's nothing like Ableton or Bitwig do - the fact that I even know of those things happening 'behind the curtains' stands in stark contrast to what we know about what's happening in Props HQ.

[normen]

It's like messing yourself and your partner up instead of simply breaking up the relationship. Do you really think there is ANY point to this discussion? Reason is what it is and no matter how much people like to think that they "push the developers" it's simply not true. Theres no examples of users coming up with great features for applications (that the developers couldn't already see before) or applications getting better the more people have a say in how they should be (Reason being a prime example with parts of the team wanting VST and parts obviously not, now we have... something...).

Become a fucking developer if you think you know how to make software that everybody loves - then in 5 years when you're drowning in administration tasks and spend most of your money on braindead users not reading the manual we talk again ok?

[Kenni]

I use Reason professionally.

How did you come to that conclusion?

I use audacity. It takes about 5 seconds to convert the .wav. Plus, you'll have the .wav as well.

My clients want both wav and mp3!

Add up each of those 5 seconds for an entire year, however. Your point is taken but that 5 seconds should be happening during export, not "over again" or in addition to some other process.

What we are left with is this odd limbo where people anticipate being able to use the program in a professional capacity due to marketing spin, but the planning and follow through clearly state this has never been and never will be the intention behind using the software.

So then what. Who is this for.

[tiker01]

It's like messing yourself and your partner up instead of simply breaking up the relationship. Do you really think there is ANY point to this discussion? Reason is what it is and no matter how much people like to think that they "push the developers" it's simply not true. Theres no examples of users coming up with great features for applications (that the developers couldn't already see before) or applications getting better the more people have a say in how they should be (Reason being a prime example with parts of the team wanting VST and parts obviously not, now we have... something...).

Become a fucking developer if you think you know how to make software that everybody loves - then in 5 years when you're drowning in administration tasks and spend most of your money on braindead users not reading the manual we talk again ok?

Normen, with all due respect please don't wind yourself up!

To the OP:

How would you feel reading this topic if you were a developer at PH and just for the sake of the example tying to rework the core of Reason to get better CPU usage? I wouldn't get any more motivated for sure. Quite the opposite.

[Kenni]

I don't agree with that at all. You can't blindly listen to the users of your product. There's some really horrible suggestions for features out there in the user space as there is in all user spaces.

Every developer "knows" that users are "dumb". They might not want to admit it in public, but most developer offices think like this.

Your statement should have said "I've never seen a project where listening to a select group of users made the product worse".

But if they'd just listen to their users they would have a massively improved product. I've never seen a project where listening to users made the product worse.

[EnochLight]

I don’t think anyone expected a thread like this to end well.

[Kenni]

Haha, true.

I don’t think anyone expected a thread like this to end well.

[normen]

Normen, with all due respect please don't wind yourself up!

Huh? Sorry, I don't get that? "Wind myself up" would mean "end myself" for me - I have no plans of doing that If you imply that I get agitated then you probably mis-interpret the "fucking".

[guitfnky]

I believe it, but with Propellerhead there is literally no user-feedback taken into account whilst constantly repeating the mantra of "We're listening".

the ability to record audio, MIDI out, time slicing and stretching, Rack Extensions (and then VST support), pitch correction, expanded color palette, convolution reverb, browser upgrade, color themes, more instruments, more effects...all things that users had been clamoring for. and that’s just off the top of my head. I’m missing quite a lot, I know.

they do listen.

[antic604]

I don't agree with that at all. You can't blindly listen to the users of your product. There's some really horrible suggestions for features out there in the user space as there is in all user spaces.

I don't think anyone says about blindly following user requests? We'd just hope for some feedback and signs of life really. Read my examples above about Ableton & Bitwig - they also f**k things up occasionally, but at least there's some interaction. I might not agree with the direction they're taking, but at least I have a vague idea of that direction: I know Live is focused around Push and electronic music but ideally aiming to avoid looking at computer screen (notice how in some videos computer is not shown at all and in one in particular it's demonstrably hidden in a wooden crate, facing away from the guy playing music*), whereas Bitwig continues to work towards opening their modular environment, touch functionalities and further integration with hardware modular systems.

I've no clue what Reason's long-term plans are

* BTW, I'm actually willing to bet Push 3 or maybe 4 will be a standalone Live machine, that you'll be able to optionally connect to an external big screen, but it won't need one for the most part.

[normen]

We'd just hope for some feedback and signs of life really.

Why? Why would you wait for the Props to give infos on the development? You could just as well wait for Apple to add replaceable batteries or for Morrissey to be less controversial. And don't try to explain it by saying "well others do it", that brings us back to the beginning of our little conversation.

[antic604]

We'd just hope for some feedback and signs of life really.

Why? Why would you wait for the Props to give infos on the development? You could just as well wait for Apple to add replaceable batteries or for Morrissey to be less controversial. And don't try to explain it by saying "well others do it", that brings us back to the beginning of our little conversation.

No, no. I'm not wanting updates on development ("today we worked on new knobs for Subtractor, tomorrow we'll test mp3 export", etc.). Instead, I'd love to hear about their vision going forward! In particular - do they plan to maintain the 'virtual hardware' paradigm and if so, how they want to modernise it and/or expand it? Is VST support an important feature for them and if so, are they working on optimising the performance, support for VST3, working external sidechaining, etc? If I'm expected to invest in their ecosystem (incl. the REs) I want to know where it's headed, not what they're doing right this second.

I've enough of micro-managing my team at real work

[normen]

No, no. I'm not wanting updates on development ("today we worked on new knobs for Subtractor, tomorrow we'll test mp3 export", etc.). Instead, I'd love to hear about their vision going forward! In particular - do they plan to maintain the 'virtual hardware' paradigm and if so, how they want to modernise it and/or expand it? Is VST support an important feature for them and if so, are they working on optimising the performance, support for VST3, working external sidechaining, etc? If I'm expected to invest in their ecosystem (incl. the REs) I want to know where it's headed, not what they're doing right this second.

I've enough of micro-managing my team at real work

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

[Voyager]

This is one of the reasons I get so frustrated with Propellerhead. They portray themselves with this cuddly, friendly exterior with quirky videos and lots of mugging to the camera, but in reality there is a wall between them and their users and they couldn't care less what we think or say. I think its this disconnect that really gets me riled up. I mean Apple are similar, but they own the fact they are arseholes and they are constantly moving forward. They don't pretend to listen, whereas Propellerhead try and come off as if they care when they couldn't give a shit.

Why? Why would you wait for the Props to give infos on the development? You could just as well wait for Apple to add replaceable batteries or for Morrissey to be less controversial. And don't try to explain it by saying "well others do it", that brings us back to the beginning of our little conversation.

No, no. I'm not wanting updates on development ("today we worked on new knobs for Subtractor, tomorrow we'll test mp3 export", etc.). Instead, I'd love to hear about their vision going forward! In particular - do they plan to maintain the 'virtual hardware' paradigm and if so, how they want to modernise it and/or expand it? Is VST support an important feature for them and if so, are they working on optimising the performance, support for VST3, working external sidechaining, etc? If I'm expected to invest in their ecosystem (incl. the REs) I want to know where it's headed, not what they're doing right this second.

On those points i agree with both Goodbye and Antic604,

I often would have like to see some unanswered topic questions cleared up by Propellehead devs because at the end they're the only ones having the right answers for some specific questions related to their product. I wouldn't say never, but too oftenly those questions and threads remains totally ignored. Shedding some lights wouldn't hurt anyone and if they could have more presence and support to this community i'm sure this would be an ever better place to come by than it is right now.

I've said it before and i feel that Propellerhead staff shouldn't abuse and be extremly grateful to have such community because there is indeed lots of people in there who do a part of their work and devote a lot of their own personal time and knowledge to help and support other users questions and requests by kindness and common sense.

For instance there is a thread where i've asked what is the future for windows 7 support with Reason future and still hope to get an answer. It's an exemple of a pretty much standard question where i see no harm to answer for them but i wouldn't be suprise if they pass this one too.

So it's not about having them here and disclose all their development schedule or whatsoever or asking them if they put sugar or milk in their coffee this morning, but just be grateful and holding a small part of this community and people who are here everyday to give support and help and those who simply seeking for help because at the end this community is part why Reason still exist.

[avasopht]

I'd imagine the less you hear from them, the bigger the feature they're working on.

I'm quite confident that Reason 11/12 will have full UHD support, video syncing, quantum powered additive multi-osc component modelled synthesizers, and it will be so optimised that each time you add a device, your whole computer gets faster!



Don't say I didn't give you the heads up.

[avasopht]

For instance there is a thread where i've asked what is the future for windows 7 support with Reason future and still hope to get an answer. It's an exemple of a pretty much standard question where i see no harm to answer for them but i wouldn't be suprise if they pass this one too.

So it's not about having them here and disclose all their development schedule or whatsoever or asking them if they put sugar or milk in their coffee this morning, but just be grateful and holding a small part of this community and people who are here everyday to give support and help and those who simply seeking for help because at the end this community is part why Reason still exist.

Yeah that is pretty weak customer relations.

It seems to be their choice of engagement, which isn't a good look.