Reason 10: Not Very Impressed

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
deepndark
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18 Apr 2018

Propably Reason is not for people who want to have a sewing-software or exel looking one instead of virtual rack one.

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kuhliloach
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18 Apr 2018

The exciting thing is the future. With Reason being a heavyweight in the sound design world things can only get better and hopefully easier to use from here. Reason has all the sonic foundation it needs to have a proper "front end" built that could make it more popular, and maybe grab some of the Ableton crowd. That will most definitely include higher resolution, more "live" clip capabilities, and the little things talked about in this thread (like Mix channels following track names).

And regarding MP3 conversion convenience check out dBpoweramp! It adds conversion capability into Window's context menus (Mac too?)--right click a single file or even highlight several files and they can all be converted automatically using the latest settings you've dialed up.

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esselfortium
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18 Apr 2018

For Mac users, I created simple MP3 conversion script you can drop into ~/Library/Services/

It'll show up in the contextual menu that appears whenever you right-click on a file, so you can very easily convert any file(s) to MP3s. By default, it encodes them at 192kbps, but you can open the script in Automator and change that number from 192 to anything else :puf_smile:

Now, here's the unfortunate catch:
You'll need to install the command-line version of the LAME MP3 encoder for it to work, which requires you to jump through a bunch of hoops. I think you first need to install the XCode developer tools and Homebrew so you can compile and install LAME via the terminal. I initially thought about posting this script before remembering the extra required steps to set it up. Google can help here, but some technical proficiency is probably required.
Sarah Mancuso
My music: Future Human

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

18 Apr 2018

Hello Geltic, thanks for posting your thoughts here, you make some good points, some of which have been stated and some new. From a new user perspective, this is precisely the type of reception I expected from a good number of people genuinely considering the software and putting some real time and effort into using it. There's simply too many "in your face" gui/backend/ options or features missing, poorly done, or unintuitive.

Fortunately you'll likely notice most of us are rabid faithfuls of Reason despite shortcomings (and only a few of us can be both very critical of Propellerhead, but still love their software at the same time) yet we're all optimistic of its future.

I believe the next iteration is do or die for Propellerhead, they've had so much ample time to improve the areas that have been sorely glossed over, however one never knows we're in the wait-and-see mode at this point.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

Steedus
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18 Apr 2018

I remember when Record/Reason for YEARS only had 16 colours to choose from. I'd also like to add the seemingly pointless vertical zoom limitation really annoys me when working with audio. I found this instantly annoying in Record 1.0, and it's still here today, 9 years later.

Geltic Höhn
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Apr 2018

19 Apr 2018

The case of MP3 rendering is not 'why bother, its crap'. It is a specific requirement some people have. I am one of those people. Like another person stated about themselves, I deliver work to clients in the format they choose, because they pay me to deliver what they choose. For live streaming, it's also what I actually recommend. I also use MP3 to email files of my own music for peer review, as there is a size limit on gmail attachments. Both of my phones also play MP3 and not FLAC. MP3 is also for the HiFi in my car. The default format on Bandcamp is MP3 too. So there are a long list of reasons why the format is still as valid today as it ever was.

We can be snobby about MP3 all day, actually I myself am outspoken on sh*t quality, but step outside of yourself for a moment. Most average listeners will never discern between a 320k MP3 and a CD. Most average people cant even recognise how truly disgusting some Youtube hosted music is, which often sounds like it was recorded from a cassette boom box in the laundry with the washing machine running. When Im witness to this ignorance amd ask people 'how can you listten to this' Im usually met with a blank stare.

But I digress. I get paid money for post production services to deliver MP3 as the finished product. Its that simple. For a DAW to not faciliate this in 2018 is pretty ludicrous.

Point taken about using the mix container as a surrogate combinator. I suppose I do it for two reasons. First is that I can avoid the horrible menu diving, and second because it reduces screen clutter. And for everything I ever play with when I build instruments, the mix channel rotaries and programmer is just fine. Actually I don't know if there's any real advantage (for me) to use an actual combi. But I'm not a huge CV geek and my build are probably quite simple. I'll check when Im back in my studio but I also think its better when using tactile control hardware when toggling between instruments live.

Appreciate the comments on the browser situation. I maintain that it's a stupendously dumb product development design. Sure I can (and do) create a template, but the reality is, they've tried to reinvent the wheel by making it the shape of a triangle.Can anyone think of any other software in the universe where, once you select your file, or patch as is the case here, and the browser window stays open? It's just crazy dumb. Its as of someone saw how Adobe Bridge works, tried to emulate the workflow but gave the developer instructions in Sumerian language. And it doesn't solve tje issue of not being able to effortlessly patch browse. When you can do it, the process is inconsistent. I'm calling out this browser as the worst and most immature decision Propellerhead ever made.

It's ok for the dismissive comments of 'first world problems'. I dont care, this is the internet after all, so one might expect some criticism. But ask yourself, is an unusable yellow color in the sequencer OK as an interface design when the grid lines become barely visible? Is an unreadable mix channel name of black text over dark blue (or even that god awful purple) acceptable? It's a totally bad decision that led to this and its just sloppy. All that said, having a larger default color pallete is a great plus for me to organise projects, but the concept of custom swatches have beem around for decades. Is it really that big a development task to write this in to the software? I doubt it.

To the gentleman who says 'no need to cry' and 'Reason is not the DAW for me'. Well I am imprisoned into the Reason ecosystem since I have paid for maybe 50 Rack Extensions that can't be onsold, amd have amassed well over 150 Refills, plus several dozen of my own custom sample banks running in NNXT. So for better or for worse, Im using Reason forever for my own music. And for the most part I really like Reason over other DAWs, but the lack of vision in the design and development is very poor. To compare version 6 or whatever the first time audio in was released, to the shift to the new GUI , well it is more time consuming and less user friendly now. I'm wondering if I should just install version 7 and shelve 10. Of course there are sacrifices. I guess I'll have to abandon Grain, Europa and Soundiron, and also review whatever plugins Ive bought that might not be compatible. Actually I was very interested in the two flagship synths when they were announced but in reality I don't feel inspired to use Grain at all, and Europa, well I already have plenty of synth REs and synth sample refills.

I have zero interest in those gimmicky Player devices so they wont be missed. And to my ears, Radical Piano sounds bad straight out of the box compared to Reason Piano ReFill and other ReFills I own. But either way, as an old RE I guess its in my account to use in version 7

Im also very prolific with musical compositions and ideas, so theres 6 months of projects down the drain if I do. So yes no. Im stuck with 10 I say. And I do like having more colors. I also find it handy to drag MIDI clips from the left. Thats about all that it offers me, two tiny little interface upgrades, weighed against a thorn in my side with all the workflow steps backwards that it has introduced.

Another word on MP3 rendering. Yes I can use any number of convertors but it's probably no more efficient than what I do now. I have nailed the process with Audacity that I can do a render in around four moves. Yes I actually count moves as a measure of efficiency :) I will actually be trying to write a macro or something in future for Reaper, since thats my weapon of choice for audio production (but not my own music) Doing this also gives me an opportunity to visually inspect the waveform and catch if Ive screwed something up with my post production jobs. It happens occasionally, like loudness being too low, or an accidental slice out.

I also like to run an incredibly lean PC, and refuse to install random software. Especially when the software I own should cover off basic stuff like MP3 render.

For a long time I was so stupid in using Reason for audio jobs, but it dawned on me that there MUST be a better way. So I installed Reaper, learned how to set some custom keystrokes and the result in efficiency gain is tremendous. A three hour task in Reason suddenly gets stripped down to around 60 to 90 minutes. Right after my second session with Reaper as a total newbie to the software, I halved my production time compared to a software that I know pretty well (I have been using Reason since version 4 and bought into 6 as soon as audio was integrated. Years on, the audio capability is still at an embarrassing stage of infancy.

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chimp_spanner
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19 Apr 2018

Oh I mean don't get me wrong - not saying some of these things shouldn't be fixed. Just saying, there are currently ways around them so *shrugs* up to you what you do about them! Obviously other things can't be fixed and we can only wait for updates.

I understand wanting to reduce rack clutter. Combis can be good for that (in addition to all the other stuff you can do like splitting instruments into different key zones). But if you have 4 instruments in Combis you're still looking at 8 devices in the rack. The "problem" is that Mixer Channels are present as devices. In real life, a channel would only take up space on the mixer itself. Not anywhere else in your studio. Soooo maybe you could simulate that in the rack? Keep all your Mixer Channels in one column (underneath the Master Section would make the most sense) and then put your instruments in one or more additional columns (shift+drag them to disable auto grouping). That way if you have 4 instruments, you'll only be looking at 4 instruments. Just an idea. What I tend to do to give my eyes/brain an easier time is keep my instruments and Mixer Channels together as normal, but just use a column in the rack for each major grouping of instrumentation. Drums, bass, guitars, etc. Reason is by its nature a visually "busy" app. But I feel there are ways to make it work for you. Maybe!

On the browser - Cubase Pro 9.5 has pretty much the exact same thing. Except it's on the right, not the left. It stays open after you drag files or presets in. It's also not very good. They even tried to copy the whole instrument thumbnail/drag-n-drop thing but it only shows Steinberg plugins so it's totally useless unless you're an avid Halion, Retrologue and Groove Agent user. And if you have Komplete, why on Earth would you be haha. So while your criticism of the Reason browser might be fair, it's by no means uniquely bad. People tend to give it a hard time like it's the only program with issues. It's also one of the very few with true global undo or an automation system that doesn't require constant micro managing and nannying. So, swings and roundabouts!

I'm not really "arguing" here btw. I have a list of things I'd love to see in Reason 10.5/11/etc. as long as my arm. Folder tracks, bezier curves for automation, multi-channel MIDI in, rack "pop-out" editor windows in the sequencer, custom colour swatches, yadayadayada. But ultimately, even though Cubase has those things...it doesn't inspire me. Reason does. I open it up and I feel like I'm playing with toys and like anything could happen. I open Cubase up and I'm automatically frustrated by what it won't let me do.

Anyway if going to 7 is a solution for you, by all means try it. I guess it depends what kind of music you do, how reliant on VSTs you are, etc. Just be aware not all REs will work with 7 now.

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Audiotic
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19 Apr 2018

Some very valid points on your list... all of which have been made in abundance on this board!

Very true, that there are some major flaws, especially GUI-wise in Reason still... however, for a using-reason-since-v1-Reason-User it seems kind of redundant to point out these flaws in comparison to other DAWs.

Reason has only started aspiring to be taken as an actual DAW (imho) roughly 2 Versions ago. Using Reason for professional mixing, editing or post-production purposes is definitely not advisable to anyone who has ever used any of the other "major" DAWS out there. No point! No point in buying any REs if spending money on ProTools or VSTs will be a business expense for you.

I guess this kind of argument will make no sense to you as a (professional) consumer, but the (only) thing that Reason has (always had) going for it, is getting people to make music by offering a fun and intuitively visual way of putting together sounds in a way unmatched by any other Software out there (imho).

So instead of streamlining all the issues that people had with Reason up until 9.5 and going with the long awaited GUI update that everyone was sure will come with Version X.... they gave us 2 (excuse my french) f**king amazing on-board instruments, to let everyone know, that even with VST Support now on-board (which still puts a smile on my face).... all you need is Reason!

I've started out making music not only with, but in parts because of Reason! And with that in mind, non of the updates have been a dissapointment for me so far!

If it's not for you.... no Reason to use it!

Geltic Höhn
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Apr 2018

19 Apr 2018

Hi Chimpspanner, thanks for your response.

'Wait for Updates' seems to be more like dreaming, when basic design & usability changes never get made. It's great to be hopeful, but some of the issues seem like such basic things that get overlooked. You yourself mention Bezier curves. I really am perplexed as to how ancient Reason feels in this modern age (and I'm pretty ancient myself!) where we can't draw particular automation shapes with ease. Of course there are workarounds, and I even have a library somewhere of pre-drawn shapes, but it's a bit of a pain to open the project template, and import them into any given work in progress. Even the clip volume fading is lame, and the inability to crossfade clips is... just wow.

I can agree with you on Reason being a 'toy' that facilitates your creativity. When I have my music-making hat on, every second day most times, I have no interest in migrating my hobby over to a new platform. I really love the rack skeumorphism that makes Reason unique, I love the 'wiring things up' process, even though I'm mostly not working in the back panel. And there are plenty of devices built just for Reason, enough to satisfy me enough to never hold an interest in VST. Kudos to Propellerheads on that, for my ease of use, and future use, the fact that every single plugin I have purchased is all in the one place, under one license.

Not trying to belittle VST support there, incidentally. Hats off to Propellerhead for integrating something that I've no doubt many people have listed as their #1 request for Years. And Years. And Years. Whether it possible now or not makes no difference to me. It doesn't detract anything from the rest of the user experience. Not long ago there was an offer with BIASFX through the Propellerhead e-store, and I was going to take a look at how VST integrates with Reason for my own interest, but the whole process was terrible, required registration with a third party (the developer), the install pack or something or other was confusing to find, I also read that the version they offered was pretty much a non expiring demo with regular annoy screens imploring the user to upgrade, and in the end I abandoned the install. So to this date I have never loaded a VST, and likely never will.

To refer to other DAWs negative aspects alongside Reason's negative aspects is disingenuous though. I guess it's been a long time since I used Cubase so I wasn't aware of the dumb browser concept. It doesn't make it OK that this very major part of Reason's usage is crippled by this very poorly thought out design shift from the most common method of a windows explorer panel appearing that is still the standard on installed software. I can actually see where they must have been going, as the concept is more reflective of modern web-based creative app platforms. But that's the thing, Reason isn't a web app. It's a studio workhorse. I really thought I would give it 6 months to see if I 'clicked' with it, but nope. I swear at my computer constantly now when I have to use the Reason Browser :) :)

Appreciate your comments on managing screen space. I do sort of work on my own way of doing things. After the first few hours of creating one hot mess, I'll spend some time arranging the racks, building some things as combi's, recolouring and relabeling. But as you said, 4 combinators becomes 8 units. That's why I often built them right into the mix channel container instead :) I don't know how other DAWs do similar, but the Combinator concept is, in my opinion, an incredibly great design vision. So that's another positive I have to say about Reason, I'm not all doom & gloom over it.

I think you're right about not reverting back to 7. I'm seeing a lot of Rack Extensions over the past year that are for use in Reason 9 and above only. And I am an active customer. Earlier on I said I had around 50 plugins. Holy heck, I just actually counted them. I have 74 plugins. Most of them I paid for, since I don't rush to 'free' Rack Extensions if I have no need for them. How many of them are compatible with 9+ only ? I really don't know, but it would be maybe 10 or so. Add to that Europa, Grain, Pangea, Klang, Humana, The Mk2 Reverb, and migrating my studio backwards is doing myself a disservice. So I suppose I just have to tolerate the lack of development on simple stuff.

Hi Audiotic,

Perhaps I might clarify, I don't consider myself a 'professional' consumer of Reason, instead I would say it's my hobby tool. A fun toy, like Chimp spanner mentioned above. The studio stuff I do for $$ is for the most part done in Reaper (as I said earlier, it literally halves the time to complete a project - consider that for a moment. A Budget DAW that leaves Reason for dead as far as productivity is concerned. And this is for one reason alone - because the audio editor is so awfully bad in Reason. That they have only integrated audio a few years back is no excuse. They're a longstanding music software business, that should have the collective experience in DAWs to know better. I don't know for sure, but I'll best that newcomer to the market Bitwig came right out at version 1 with a modern audio editing suite.

Actually, part of the $$ work I do does include Reason. I'll work up a job in Reaper, export the WAVs, import into Reason to use one particular plugin that is my #1 'go to'...... and then have to save a WAV, import back into Reaper or Audacity to render to MP3 ! Arrrrrghhhh, what a waste of time. In all fairness though, if I decided not to use the 'magic bullet' RE then I could work entirely in the box in Reaper, so that's my choice, in order to deliver a high quality project. What would be cool is some sort of container for VST platforms that I could plug Rack Extension into Reaper with. That's not a complaint though, I would never expect such a tool to be created. But.... if the audio editor was rewritten, and MP3 export made possible, then I could retire Reaper completely.

Maybe the point of this thread was to vent a little bit, with like minded users, and it appears that I'm not alone in seeing the obvious and basic shortfalls in the design, and the lack of attention to ever getting around to reworking them. Like Bezier curves mentioned above, automation lanes have been around since day 1 haven't they? I can only speak of as early as Reason 4, (before going to 6, then 7, then 10) and I'm pretty sure automation was possible back then. And It probably hasn't changed one bit in all that time. This has nothing to do with them being a new player in the fully integrated DAW space. It shows only a lack of attention to better user experience.

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Oquasec
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Joined: 05 Mar 2017

19 Apr 2018

You guys are asking for them to make rewire again.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

Geltic Höhn
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Apr 2018

20 Apr 2018

Psuper wrote:
18 Apr 2018
Hello Geltic, thanks for posting your thoughts here, you make some good points, some of which have been stated and some new. From a new user perspective, this is precisely the type of reception I expected from a good number of people genuinely considering the software and putting some real time and effort into using it. There's simply too many "in your face" gui/backend/ options or features missing, poorly done, or unintuitive.

Fortunately you'll likely notice most of us are rabid faithfuls of Reason despite shortcomings (and only a few of us can be both very critical of Propellerhead, but still love their software at the same time) yet we're all optimistic of its future.

I believe the next iteration is do or die for Propellerhead, they've had so much ample time to improve the areas that have been sorely glossed over, however one never knows we're in the wait-and-see mode at this point.
Hello PSuper, thanks for the shoutout. I think I might be considered a rabid faithful too. But that doesn't mean that I'll just be forgiving of their lack of attention. Reason has been out there for 15 years, and should be an absolute powerhouse of a DAW by now, and at least include basic stuff that should not even be part of a discussion.

I really don't know what the typical customer of Reason will look like as time passes by though. For me, being of a vintage where hi-fi component systems were my thing, and for recording music, it involved pedals, amps, recordings to tape, basically everything involving hardware and cable configurations, Reason ticked the boxes, and that's why I'm here now. But nostalgia isn't evolutionary. I don't know if the whole thing that makes Reason what it is, would translate to someone in the 16-25 year old age bracket (ie the future of any DAWs survival). Most modern electronic musicians will never touch more than four cables in their musical lifetime (2 x USB and 2 x Speaker Outs haha), so what interest does it offer to have hardware virtualizations and the ability to custom-cable them together?

Reason isn't really a wise choice for rock & pop musicians either, those who like to use organic instruments. I have been asked to give some guitar based wanna-be creators of music people some suggestions and advice of 'how can I record some ideas at home'. And sadly for me, I have to say 'My choice of DAW is not even close to the best choice for you'. Through no fault of Propellerheads of course, but the Reason platform hasn't exactly attracted much in the way of sim builders. Those cool guys from Indonesia have given up some great amps and FX for the guitar and bass market, and a few years ago another developer rebuilt three classic pedals in Rack Extension format, but that's been it. Even the one single stock guitar amp in Reason mysteriously disappeared, and a whole other amp sim being the sole stock device.

madmacman
Posts: 786
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

Geltic Höhn wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Hello PSuper, thanks for the shoutout. I think I might be considered a rabid faithful too. But that doesn't mean that I'll just be forgiving of their lack of attention. Reason has been out there for 15 years, and should be an absolute powerhouse of a DAW by now, and at least include basic stuff that should not even be part of a discussion.
But for 12-13 years it wasn't even their concept to become a full fledged DAW! As said before in this thread: the transition of Reason into becoming a DAW is comparatively young. Maybe 2-3 years.

Geltic Höhn
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Apr 2018

20 Apr 2018

madmacman wrote:
20 Apr 2018
But for 12-13 years it wasn't even their concept to become a full fledged DAW! As said before in this thread: the transition of Reason into becoming a DAW is comparatively young. Maybe 2-3 years.
How was BitWig's audio editor at version 1 ?

What has changed about automation curves in Reason over 15 years ? Still no bezier curves !

In 2018 you still can't even drag the left column in a sequencer to a custom size. This isn't a 2-3 year old oversight.

Geltic Höhn
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Apr 2018

20 Apr 2018

And.... look at the behavior of Dr OctoRex, with handling Pattern Clips. 'Edit Automation' created a secondary lane in the sequencer (which for the way I use Rex, is totally redundant) AND between the now two lanes, there's no dividing line horizontally. That's just bad GUI design.
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makke
Posts: 50
Joined: 06 May 2017

20 Apr 2018

I am still waiting for these (copied from my FR thread).. I have a feeling that I don't see these soon, so while waiting these, I bought Bitwig and enjoying it a lot. Good modular DAW and I highly suggest everyone to try it 😀

1. Automatically returning playing cursor.
2. Midi chase.
3. Automation curves.
4. Midi routing
5. Bypass button in the VST plugin wrapper.
6. Loop sync. You have kick going on playlist and then you listen loop from the browser, it doesn't sync with the beat..
7. Shortcut key to open VSTi. Like you have "bass" in the sequencer, which is let's say Sylenth. It is closed, but you want to edit the synth. Highlight the "bass" track on the sequencer and hit this request shortcut key to open Sylenth, and hit the same key to close it.

Gui update would be nice too..

Maybe in Reason 15? 🤔

madmacman
Posts: 786
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

20 Apr 2018

@Geltic Höhn

Well, don't get me wrong - I don't disagree in many points. Nor do I defend Reason and its development. But one must admit, that Propellerhead always had their strong "own agenda" and did prioritze things in a different way. Bezier curves? No that important! Missing UI guidelines? We'll care later. And so on...

No, that's not a good or ideal way of developing software. But sometimes it's the way it is. And as I stated before: Maybe the release of 10 was the "break" they need to do a major overhaul with more time than within the usual timeframe of ~ 1.5 years between major releases.

Either they can surprise us with R11, or (as Psuper our forum naysayer ;) stated) we'll see the demise.

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chimp_spanner
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20 Apr 2018

Geltic Höhn wrote:
19 Apr 2018
Hi Chimpspanner, thanks for your response.

'Wait for Updates' seems to be more like dreaming, when basic design & usability changes never get made ... You yourself mention Bezier curves. I really am perplexed as to how ancient Reason feels in this modern age (and I'm pretty ancient myself!) where we can't draw particular automation shapes with ease...
I mean again, not to use another programs shortcomings as justification for lack of progress but Cubase only just got curves in 9.5, and it’s been around for a loooong time. I started on version 2, on the Atari ST! Showing my age haha.


the whole (VST) process was terrible ... So to this date I have never loaded a VST, and likely never will.
Hey I’d switched to Reason as my primary DAW long before VST! So it’s not the be all and end all. But, that said...now I’ve got Komplete Ultimate 11 in the rack, I could never go back. Registration was always gonna be vastly different to REs though. No way to unify so many third party plugins into the Authorizer system.

To refer to other DAWs negative aspects alongside Reason's negative aspects is disingenuous though ... It doesn't make it OK
Oh dude I’m not excusing anything! I just feel that Reason gets held to a different standard than a lot of other DAWs. The criticism is always very one directional. I see a lot of people asking why Reason can’t do what Cubase or Logic does. Less people asking why Cubase or Logic can’t do what Reason does. It’s not unique in missing some seemingly common sense features, and it has some excellent features of its own (which I know you already appreciate). That’s all I meant :)

Appreciate your comments on managing screen space.
No problem! I actually tried it out properly myself last night. I shift dragged instruments into the rack to prevent auto patching, and then dragged a mix channel in and connected it myself. Was really nice having one area of the rack where all my mixer channels and insert effects lived. Well worth a shot!

Anyway I know that most of us here only want the best for a piece of software we really enjoy. I guess I am a little optimistic/wishful in my thinking when it comes to development buuuuut it does feel different this time. There’s more buzz around Reason than there has been for a while. Some interesting software and hardware partnerships. Placing well in top DAW lists (where previously Reason was like a really well kept secret). Hopefully all good signs! Anyway I hope you find your way past these issues and continue to have fun and make music.

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

20 Apr 2018

Geltic Höhn wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Psuper wrote:
18 Apr 2018
Hello Geltic, thanks for posting your thoughts here, you make some good points, some of which have been stated and some new. From a new user perspective, this is precisely the type of reception I expected from a good number of people genuinely considering the software and putting some real time and effort into using it. There's simply too many "in your face" gui/backend/ options or features missing, poorly done, or unintuitive.

Fortunately you'll likely notice most of us are rabid faithfuls of Reason despite shortcomings (and only a few of us can be both very critical of Propellerhead, but still love their software at the same time) yet we're all optimistic of its future.

I believe the next iteration is do or die for Propellerhead, they've had so much ample time to improve the areas that have been sorely glossed over, however one never knows we're in the wait-and-see mode at this point.
Hello PSuper, thanks for the shoutout. I think I might be considered a rabid faithful too. But that doesn't mean that I'll just be forgiving of their lack of attention. Reason has been out there for 15 years, and should be an absolute powerhouse of a DAW by now, and at least include basic stuff that should not even be part of a discussion.

I really don't know what the typical customer of Reason will look like as time passes by though. For me, being of a vintage where hi-fi component systems were my thing, and for recording music, it involved pedals, amps, recordings to tape, basically everything involving hardware and cable configurations, Reason ticked the boxes, and that's why I'm here now. But nostalgia isn't evolutionary. I don't know if the whole thing that makes Reason what it is, would translate to someone in the 16-25 year old age bracket (ie the future of any DAWs survival). Most modern electronic musicians will never touch more than four cables in their musical lifetime (2 x USB and 2 x Speaker Outs haha), so what interest does it offer to have hardware virtualizations and the ability to custom-cable them together?

Reason isn't really a wise choice for rock & pop musicians either, those who like to use organic instruments. I have been asked to give some guitar based wanna-be creators of music people some suggestions and advice of 'how can I record some ideas at home'. And sadly for me, I have to say 'My choice of DAW is not even close to the best choice for you'. Through no fault of Propellerheads of course, but the Reason platform hasn't exactly attracted much in the way of sim builders. Those cool guys from Indonesia have given up some great amps and FX for the guitar and bass market, and a few years ago another developer rebuilt three classic pedals in Rack Extension format, but that's been it. Even the one single stock guitar amp in Reason mysteriously disappeared, and a whole other amp sim being the sole stock device.
Oh I agree, I'm the most critical on this board about holding their feet to the fire and make no bones about their poor past decisions of which I'm extremely vocal. My hope is someone in Propellerhead is listening, however there's no indication that's the case - just our hopes. The hardest thing to combat here is human nature, people generally don't like to be critical about things they pay for because they're afraid any "negatives" spoken adversely affect sales slowing down Props from giving more crumbs, that sort of thing. However again this board has a good portion of more mature users who understand we all want Reason to continue to succeed, and can roll with the punches.
madmacman wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Geltic Höhn wrote:
20 Apr 2018
Hello PSuper, thanks for the shoutout. I think I might be considered a rabid faithful too. But that doesn't mean that I'll just be forgiving of their lack of attention. Reason has been out there for 15 years, and should be an absolute powerhouse of a DAW by now, and at least include basic stuff that should not even be part of a discussion.
But for 12-13 years it wasn't even their concept to become a full fledged DAW! As said before in this thread: the transition of Reason into becoming a DAW is comparatively young. Maybe 2-3 years.
Can''t have it both ways.

Many people considered Reason a DAW from day one (and aren't really wrong, DAW is anything on a computer that creates music). Myself and others however believe it became a proper 'competitive, throw your hat into the ring" DAW once Audio was natively introduced to the program in R6.

To say they're only just beginning to "DAW" is just attempting to excuse them from not developing the areas they clearly should have over the last 10 years. Reason was in such a strong position for many years milking the "create-a-device" side of things, then generating serious excitement with the RE and SDK. But then cut their own throats when they got cocky stepping on both users and REdevs with various poor and intentional decisions of which we've discussed many times from destroying the community forums, creating competing devices, etc.

The point is Propellerhead Reason most definitely is a DAW and has been one for a very long time - it just needed developed as a DAW and only recently are people realizing it hasn't been.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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TheNoog
Posts: 38
Joined: 06 Mar 2018

20 Apr 2018

I could not agree more really. Propellerhead does not care about the program. All they care about is content. Pump as much "MOAR" into it as they can.

jimmyklane
Posts: 740
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

21 Apr 2018

First off, want to say I’ve been using Reason since v1 with ReBirth....I’ve beta tested every version available...and I love Reason. As to the discussion of it having been a DAW from the start, I had always treated it as a large suite of instruments and rewired it into Nuendo for use...once it natively supported audio, I started sampling into it and recording the results back into Reason. However I have a few gripes:


Audio Editing: man, Reason still isn’t much more than a midi sequencer bolted on to control the onboard devices. I work completely outside the box for pretty much the entire production phase, and then record audio from my synths and samplers and separate tracks for my outboard gear.....

With all the audio I use in Reason to have proper editing would be amazing. Protools and Cubase/Nuendo have this down.

In addition, the midi timing seems to be not as great as other DAWSs....like they WANT to keep you inside the box. I’m constantly having to adjust for offset in the start of phrases and parts...
DAW: Reason 12

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

21 Apr 2018

I too wonder about the longevity of the rack paradigm in the face of young people coming in to the field who've never seen a 19" rack or a distortion pedal or any of the analogue gear that the Rack aims to emulate. I know we've talked about it before.
For me, it was a big part of choosing Reason, because that's how I think.
But if you started making music with a computer, it's hard to see why you'd choose Reason. I worry that the very thing that probably brought most of us to Reason will increasingly alienate the younger generation of users. And then we're left with a program with an ageing user base, which is Bad. If I had to pick one thing that might result in Propellerhead one day being In Trouble (drinking game!) if they don't keep an eye on it, it would be that.

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moneykube
Posts: 3447
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

21 Apr 2018

no update fixes the stutter click issue... have to bounce tracks to work now... why?... and not using high sierra,
https://soundcloud.com/moneykube-qube/s ... d-playlist
Proud Member Of The Awesome League Of Perpetuals

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esselfortium
Posts: 1456
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
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21 Apr 2018

EdGrip wrote:
21 Apr 2018
I too wonder about the longevity of the rack paradigm in the face of young people coming in to the field who've never seen a 19" rack or a distortion pedal or any of the analogue gear that the Rack aims to emulate. I know we've talked about it before.
For me, it was a big part of choosing Reason, because that's how I think.
But if you started making music with a computer, it's hard to see why you'd choose Reason. I worry that the very thing that probably brought most of us to Reason will increasingly alienate the younger generation of users. And then we're left with a program with an ageing user base, which is Bad. If I had to pick one thing that might result in Propellerhead one day being In Trouble (drinking game!) if they don't keep an eye on it, it would be that.
Personally, I was 13 when I first used Reason in 2003 (version 2.5!) and I had absolutely no clue about any of the hardware it was based on. As a kid I thought electronic music had to be made by programming waveforms in code to make the shapes and melodies you wanted. Reason's rack paradigm didn't attract me because of familiarity, it was just cool and fun and I could make all sorts of music and neat sounds with it right out-of-the-box.
Sarah Mancuso
My music: Future Human

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Adabler
Competition Winner
Posts: 496
Joined: 05 Oct 2017
Location: Oslo

21 Apr 2018

EdGrip wrote:
21 Apr 2018
I too wonder about the longevity of the rack paradigm in the face of young people coming in to the field who've never seen a 19" rack or a distortion pedal or any of the analogue gear that the Rack aims to emulate.
I think there are more relatively cheap hardware options today compared to the 80's and 90's, and I'd guess there are a lot more kids getting their hands on that stuff sooner than I could dream of back then. For example, lots of manufacturers are making small cute versions of their classic synths and modular setups are cheaper than ever. While the 19" format may not be household anymore, to me it seems like hardware emulation still is relevant. Maybe a similar situation as vinyl coming back in style?
:reason: 12, Win10

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

21 Apr 2018

esselfortium wrote:
21 Apr 2018
EdGrip wrote:
21 Apr 2018
I too wonder about the longevity of the rack paradigm in the face of young people coming in to the field who've never seen a 19" rack or a distortion pedal or any of the analogue gear that the Rack aims to emulate. I know we've talked about it before.
For me, it was a big part of choosing Reason, because that's how I think.
But if you started making music with a computer, it's hard to see why you'd choose Reason. I worry that the very thing that probably brought most of us to Reason will increasingly alienate the younger generation of users. And then we're left with a program with an ageing user base, which is Bad. If I had to pick one thing that might result in Propellerhead one day being In Trouble (drinking game!) if they don't keep an eye on it, it would be that.
Personally, I was 13 when I first used Reason in 2003 (version 2.5!) and I had absolutely no clue about any of the hardware it was based on. As a kid I thought electronic music had to be made by programming waveforms in code to make the shapes and melodies you wanted. Reason's rack paradigm didn't attract me because of familiarity, it was just cool and fun and I could make all sorts of music and neat sounds with it right out-of-the-box.
Essel got it right -- the hardware emulation / modular approach will always be a draw for any age despite familiarity, however the glaring problems Reason has as a "DAW" will turn most people off after the honeymoon period wears off.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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