Poor PC Performance

[Smee]

Hi guys.

I've just tried to run the Reason stress test project from years ago. Most people look to get a minute or so of playback time on really old systems using Reason 8. I can't even get mine to play at all, on a fairly modern system using 9.5?!?

I've been testing Reason up against Reaper using the same project layouts, instruments and effect, and Reason is about 50% slower (well, not benchmarked, just my perception - feels about half as slow). Is there some serious issue with my PC specs that is conflicting with Reason?!?

i5-6500 @ 3.2GHz
16gig DDR4 RAM
Windows 10 Home
Gigabyte GA-H170-HD3 board
Reason and all samples/Refills on SSD, Most VSTi and VST on 7200 drive
Gforce GTX 970
Focusrite 2i4 Gen1


I'm trying to build an orchestral template, but I'm lucky if I can get 8-10 instances of Kontakt running smoothly. In Reaper, I can get up around 20-22 instances.

Cheers

[normen]

Reason runs all plugins at 64 samples internally so the possible modulation frequency among the plugins and effects stays high (it's dependent on the buffer size). So if you're running a lot of Kontakt instruments then Reason probably isn't the right DAW for you, it's more for when you do lots of intermodulation (i.e. CV connections) and sound design combining multiple synths / samplers and effects.

That's also why such modular systems usually come in the form of a single VST plugin in other DAWs.

[Smee]

Ah, that makes sense. But how come I can't even play the stress test template at all. I might get 1 second or so before the 'You machine is too slow' warning.

viewtopic.php?t=7263897

[dustmoses]

I'm on 9.2 because I don't want VST atm. I only have a few I use to mix vocals in Reaper.

I want 10, is it slower even with no VST?

[antic604]

Check Reason's settings if multi-core and hyper-threading are enabled (experiment with the latter, as it might give better results off), also set maximum DSP to 0, to avoid the dreaded "Computer to slow" message.

But unfortunately that's the reality for now: most plugins work fine, some are much less DSP hungry than in other DAWs, few are outright crashing.

[normen]

Ah, that makes sense. But how come I can't even play the stress test template at all. I might get 1 second or so before the 'You machine is too slow' warning.

viewtopic.php?t=7263897

Yeah, hard to tell what the issue might be in terms of your hardware / software / perception combination there. I was going off the Kontakt instance number ratio which sounded about right to me.

As others suggested try tinkering with the configuration values for the CPU settings and maybe even check your computer with a DPC latency tool for actual system/driver issues causing "micro pauses".

[stfual]

Check your focusrite driver. I'm using the gen 2 and just noticed they did an update in January 18 for problems with Windows 10 creative edition. I had seem some very odd problems in FL where it actually slowed down the song under load which were solved with this driver.

[EnochLight]

Hi guys.

I've just tried to run the Reason stress test project from years ago. Most people look to get a minute or so of playback time on really old systems using Reason 8. I can't even get mine to play at all, on a fairly modern system using 9.5?!?

I've been testing Reason up against Reaper using the same project layouts, instruments and effect, and Reason is about 50% slower (well, not benchmarked, just my perception - feels about half as slow). Is there some serious issue with my PC specs that is conflicting with Reason?!?

i5-6500 @ 3.2GHz
16gig DDR4 RAM
Windows 10 Home
Gigabyte GA-H170-HD3 board
Reason and all samples/Refills on SSD, Most VSTi and VST on 7200 drive
Gforce GTX 970
Focusrite 2i4 Gen1


I'm trying to build an orchestral template, but I'm lucky if I can get 8-10 instances of Kontakt running smoothly. In Reaper, I can get up around 20-22 instances.

Cheers

You're also on a 3 year old Skylake chip, and its performance is affected by the recent Windows update that addressed the Meltdown and Spectre vulnerabilities. You can try temporarily disabling the patches using the InSpectre utility below (requires a restart of your PC) and get the performance back, though. Try testing after that:

https://www.grc.com/inspectre.htm

[Smee]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm really bummed about Reasons performance issues with multiple VSTi instances. For me, it's not just a 'Kontakt' problem, even running standard synths, I'm lucky to get maybe 10-12 instances of Diva or RP Blue 2 running. I'm also not convinced its a PC hardware issue, as Reaper runs easily double these figures without hiccuping. Also, its inability to input multiple channels of MIDI to a VI meaning you have to run individual instances of Kontakt (or any sampler) for every single MIDI channel just blows my mind.

Admittedly, my situation is unusual, most people won't run stupid numbers of VI's like I do, but I'm a composer and need to have often upwards of 100-200 tracks running, often with 20 or 30 instances of live VIs or VST effects.

I love Reason's interface and workflow, but it looks like I'll need to retire it. Damn.

[normen]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm really bummed about Reasons performance issues with multiple VSTi instances. For me, it's not just a 'Kontakt' problem, even running standard synths, I'm lucky to get maybe 10-12 instances of Diva or RP Blue 2 running. I'm also not convinced its a PC hardware issue, as Reaper runs easily double these figures without hiccuping. Also, its inability to input multiple channels of MIDI to a VI meaning you have to run individual instances of Kontakt (or any sampler) for every single MIDI channel just blows my mind.

Admittedly, my situation is unusual, most people won't run stupid numbers of VI's like I do, but I'm a composer and need to have often upwards of 100-200 tracks running, often with 20 or 30 instances of live VIs or VST effects.

I love Reason's interface and workflow, but it looks like I'll need to retire it. Damn.

Workflow as a generic DAW? I think most every other DAW out there is more suited as a generic DAW than Reason, especially when running a lot of "readymade" synths / samplers. Reason can't be beat in modularity though. So if you want that bit you can just ReWire Reason into another DAW as it was meant to initially.

As for workflow issues with Reason as a generic DAW, this is just one of many reasons why Reason probably shouldn't be your main DAW - unless you do mainly do synth / sample based stuff with a bit of vocals or guitar on top maybe - things you could do in vanilla Reason. Reason is much more of an instrument itself than other DAWs which are basically just "frameworks" for your instruments. Theres other things like Reason storing all its audio in one big file where you can't access single files from outside easily etc. etc. Reason really ISN'T a generic DAW imo.

Edit: At least not in the sense most people would understand it - like "I can run Kontakt in it, it's a DAW". Not like Maschine which is imo much closer to Reason than say Cubase or Logic.

[EnochLight]

Workflow as a generic DAW? I think most every other DAW out there is more suited as a generic DAW than Reason, especially when running a lot of "readymade" synths / samplers. Reason can't be beat in modularity though. So if you want that bit you can just ReWire Reason into another DAW as it was meant to initially.

As for workflow issues with Reason as a generic DAW, this is just one of many reasons why Reason probably shouldn't be your main DAW - unless you do mainly do synth / sample based stuff with a bit of vocals or guitar on top maybe - things you could do in vanilla Reason. Reason is much more of an instrument itself than other DAWs which are basically just "frameworks" for your instruments. Theres other things like Reason storing all its audio in one big file where you can't access single files from outside easily etc. etc. Reason really ISN'T a generic DAW imo.

Edit: At least not in the sense most people would understand it - like "I can run Kontakt in it, it's a DAW". Not like Maschine which is imo much closer to Reason than say Cubase or Logic.

None of his issues were with Reason’s workflow. He prefers it, actually. His issues are with VST performance in Reason...

[normen]

None of his issues were with Reason’s workflow. He prefers it, actually. His issues are with VST performance in Reason...

Right, not being able to instantiate the last three instruments you want in your song is not a workflow issue...

You're aware that in a workflow you can't just insert "a plugin" somewhere? You have to be damn conscious about WHAT plugin takes that place in your workflow.

[EnochLight]

None of his issues were with Reason’s workflow. He prefers it, actually. His issues are with VST performance in Reason...

Right, not being able to instantiate the last three instruments you want in your song is not a workflow issue...

You're aware that in a workflow you can't just insert "a plugin" somewhere? You have to be damn conscious about WHAT plugin takes that place in your workflow.

Well, the OP clearly stated:

I love Reason's interface and workflow

..and his thread is about VST performance being his main issue. It just appeared as though you completely ignored that and only addressed "workflow issues with Reason as a generic DAW". Slight goal post move, is all. But sure, of course the amount of plugin instances affects one's workflow.

[normen]

Right, not being able to instantiate the last three instruments you want in your song is not a workflow issue...

You're aware that in a workflow you can't just insert "a plugin" somewhere? You have to be damn conscious about WHAT plugin takes that place in your workflow.

Well, the OP clearly stated:

I love Reason's interface and workflow

..and his thread is about VST performance being his main issue. It just appeared as though you completely ignored that and only addressed "workflow issues with Reason as a generic DAW". Slight goal post move, is all. But sure, of course the amount of plugin instances affects one's workflow.

Right, well its OPs choice to answer my question and to consider my thoughts about Reason as a generic DAW and the workflow one might get out of it despite the fact that he loves it so far. After all his current consideration is to ditch it altogether.

[EnochLight]

Right, well its OPs choice to answer my question and to consider my thoughts about Reason as a generic DAW and the workflow one might get out of it despite the fact that he loves it so far. After all his current consideration is to ditch it altogether.

True, true.

[miscend]

Did you switch off power saving and sleep features.

[Smee]

Hey guys, sorry haven't been keeping up with the conversation.

Yes, I don't have workflow issues with Reason, I love the workflow, that's why I want to use it. The big problem is the poor performance with multiple VST samplers, like Kontakt, Falcon and Sampletank. Secondary, and this is specific to people like me using orchestral scoring templates, there is no multitimbral MIDI send options, which means you need to run individual instances of every single instrument (my main template has over 150 instruments patched with around 20-25 running at any one time).

(Multitimbral output in Reaper means you can insert a single instance of Kontakt/Falcon with up to 16 instruments preloaded, then send the MIDI output from any number of tracks to the plugin to trigger any one of the 16 instruments. Though handy for making mega sound modules, composers use this technique to separate individual articulations from large orchestral libraries into preloaded tracks. This means you can preload 16 articulations (long notes, short notes, staccato etc etc) and use only the ones you need when you need them. The track is otherwise disabled, saving resources. In Reason you need to load the complete instrument with all the articulations weather you need them or not, or insert a completely unique instance for each articulation - of which there could be many hundreds per library)

But on another point, I'm don't think Reason is a 'unique' as you make it out to be. Theres nothing I can think of that it does Reaper can't do equally well**. The main benefit of Reason is all the routing is visual, wherein Reaper it's all dots and numbers. Reasons mighty Combinator is easily replicated in Reaper, plus there are multiple good alternatives (arguably much better) than Thor, Kong and all the other synths. Reason is great, but its not anywhere near as flexible as Reaper.

So I have come to accept Reason is gorgeous looking, but ultimately only applicable to making low-demand urban beats or EDM.

** Actually yes, Blocks. Reaper can't do blocks, which I love in Reason.

[normen]

So it sounds like you mainly want intricate orchestral editing? What I can suggest is using a different computer for orchestral arrangement stuff. Thats basically how I saw it being done in most big production studios. The professional Vienna etc. orchestra samplers are so demanding that you can only run those on one PC anyway. That way you are actually not tied to any DAW.

As for Reason being different - it's a bit hard to explain but there is no other host where the interconnections between plugins can happen as they do in Reason.

If you compare for example to advanced automation routing systems in other DAWs - they always work at the buffer size rate. Meaning if you modulate a synths parameter it will be "quantized" to the buffer size. If you compare to advanced modular systems like Reaktor then you don't have the single modules in the context of the DAW, i.e. you can't route the output of a module in Reaktor directly to some synth that sits in a DAW insert.

But anyway, I suspect by now people only see a wall of text saying "normen disagrees with me" instead of reading the content anyway so I guess "Keep up the faith"? Might be the Props turn Reason inside out and make it work more like most DAWs.

Edit: Found a TL;DR: Try modulating a synths parameter externally with 200Hz in another DAW and then in Reason (even with the same VST!) - if you can find a way to generate a 200Hz automation signal in that DAW at all

[Smee]

Cheers Normen, appreciate your input.

I know there are neat tricks Reason does, but for every trick theres a bunch of annoyances even the most simple DAW gets right - like mappable keybindings!

The big problem is, no matter how tricky you get with synth routing, theres a VST synth that sounds incredible out of the box without all that complicated wiring...Omnisphere/Sylenth/Massive/Serum....the list goes on.

If you stick to predominantly simplistic pop/EDM/urban tracks and don't push the limits too hard, Reason is brilliant. I could live with the quirks and MIDI shortcomings, but Im gutted it doesn't have the raw power of the other platforms.

[Jmax]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm really bummed about Reasons performance issues with multiple VSTi instances. For me, it's not just a 'Kontakt' problem, even running standard synths, I'm lucky to get maybe 10-12 instances of Diva or RP Blue 2 running. I'm also not convinced its a PC hardware issue, as Reaper runs easily double these figures without hiccuping. Also, its inability to input multiple channels of MIDI to a VI meaning you have to run individual instances of Kontakt (or any sampler) for every single MIDI channel just blows my mind.

Admittedly, my situation is unusual, most people won't run stupid numbers of VI's like I do, but I'm a composer and need to have often upwards of 100-200 tracks running, often with 20 or 30 instances of live VIs or VST effects.

I love Reason's interface and workflow, but it looks like I'll need to retire it. Damn.

100-200 tracks lol?? Then you need serious power for that. Like Junkie XL power computing. We're talking probably 50k of power and computing. I don't believe Junkie XL uses Reason either. He writes with Cubase I believe, I could be wrong. Not that it matters. He has all the real synths anyways.

[drloop]

Ah, that makes sense. But how come I can't even play the stress test template at all. I might get 1 second or so before the 'You machine is too slow' warning.

viewtopic.php?t=7263897

I have the same interface as you. My computer have almost the same performance as your computer.
I can run the benchmark for roughly 25 seconds before my computer stops.
This at 44.1khz and 1024 buffer and 95% CPU limit in Reason.

Use Latency mon to check if your computer is ok to handle low latency applications such as Reason and Reaper.
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/ ... PC-latency

Here is some tips on making your system perfoming better.
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/ ... Windows-10

[Smee]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm really bummed about Reasons performance issues with multiple VSTi instances. For me, it's not just a 'Kontakt' problem, even running standard synths, I'm lucky to get maybe 10-12 instances of Diva or RP Blue 2 running. I'm also not convinced its a PC hardware issue, as Reaper runs easily double these figures without hiccuping. Also, its inability to input multiple channels of MIDI to a VI meaning you have to run individual instances of Kontakt (or any sampler) for every single MIDI channel just blows my mind.

Admittedly, my situation is unusual, most people won't run stupid numbers of VI's like I do, but I'm a composer and need to have often upwards of 100-200 tracks running, often with 20 or 30 instances of live VIs or VST effects.

I love Reason's interface and workflow, but it looks like I'll need to retire it. Damn.

100-200 tracks lol?? Then you need serious power for that. Like Junkie XL power computing. We're talking probably 50k of power and computing. I don't believe Junkie XL uses Reason either. He writes with Cubase I believe, I could be wrong. Not that it matters. He has all the real synths anyways.

Hi Jmax - even my simple templates have 100 tracks. A single instance of Spitfire Symphonic Strings uses about 30 articulation tracks for each instrument, and there's 6 of those - so thats 180 tracks right there with just one Spitfire library fully loaded (very overkill). My PC (specs above) can comfortably run about 20 single kontakt instances, each usually outputting about 4 channels each. Plus on top of all that I run a bunch of wav recordings and bounces downs. (See attached)

Trust me, my template is relatively modest. Some of the guys I follow run upwards of 1000 tracks easily.

Yes, those mega systems like JXL look amazing, but I find 90% of the times I don't need to run so many live kontakt instruments, I usually freeze them down to wav as Im going. Once I start making the big bucks like him I might look into a networked VSL system.

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Reaper-2.jpg (51.24 KiB) Viewed 3236 times

[chimp_spanner]

There's definitely something different about how reason does VST compared to other hosts. I've seen some interesting explanations and theories but not being a programmer myself I couldn't say if they hold any water.

The biggest barriers to running massive orchestral templates (asides from performance) are a lack of folders and also the lack of multi channel MIDI in for Kontakt. Loading separate instances of the plugin just for articulations is a huge drain on resources. In cubase you can just have one instrument track with articulations on different MIDI channels (and each note can address a different channel) or just use expression maps. So all articulations are available on one track within a single part (if you want). That's the kind of thing we need in Reason to be able to do big orchestral arrangements. Not sure how likely it is though!

In the meantime I still manage to work in Reason. I'm just always evaluating whether I need something to be a VST or not. For synths especially, there's very little reason for me to stray from REs (I have a lot of them) and they undoubtedly run better than VSTs. So I leave my remaining overhead for things I absolutely need like Kontakt, Superior, etc. Which works reasonably well aside from the issues I mentioned above.

I think for now you might have to just continue using another host for those kinds of projects and wait for 10.5 or 11 to deliver the big changes. I hope they come too as I absolutely love working in Reason!

[EnochLight]

I was always under the impression that urban beats were in high demand these days.

[Oquasec]

I'm going to be real with yall. if talking about track folders, customizing the UI and stuff like that I am never looking at reason as anything more than a sound design station with composing tool.