Reason without VST plugins is much better (poll)

[Troyvasanth]

VST's in Reason are great.

Optimised, no. But useful and productive, yes.

I agree with this statement.
I also think that some VST plugins can not be replaced. In fact I have a lot of them which doesn't have an equivalent RE.
I also agree that Reason has opened up a lot after VST support.
But as I mentioned earlier it is the stability and CPU usage that's the problem.
As far as stability goes we cant expect 100% but at least optimization can be done.
Perhaps a better plugin management will be great, Where one can selectively enable plugins.

[QVprod]

Perhaps a better plugin management will be great, Where one can selectively enable plugins.

You can. Under ‘Window’ there’s a plugin manager.

[JiggeryPokery]

I guess VST users wish they had a -"sync all" button

They're equally blessed and cursed!

Sync All is really great, a real time and effort saver, and users of other plugin formats probably don't appreciate what they're missing, but it's only great up to the point where you don't want to Sync All, as it's an all-or-nothing approach.

There needed to be site-stored switch (i.e., a saved value) to disable/re-enable sync on each device. Failure to include that function means either you have locate individual devices to update in a long list of devices, to sync one updated device at a time, or Sync All to update all updated devices, but then manually punch Authoriser in the face, again, as soon as possible to stop the insta-redownloads of potentially gigabytes of stuff that are no longer wanted or needed. It's a first-world problem, sure, and Sync All is way better than not having it. But it still feels like half an implementation.

[PortendingHonor]

Why would it be better without VST's? It doesn't make a performance hit, unless you're actually using VST's. The problem in general is that VST's a finicky in ALL DAW's. Yup, VST's crash Pro Tools too folks! It's just all in finding the ones that work for you. I don't use a lot of them, and I only use free plugins, because let's be honest, Reason stock pretty much has almost everything you need! I use a handful of plugins for different "color". I just think it's a shame that it's 20 years behind the times. Kinda surprised VST is still a standard this many years later, honestly.

[Jmax]

Using VST's with Reason's workflow is where it's at.

[NekujaK]

What's all the fuss about? The Props never said we HAVE to use VSTs, they just gave us the option. We're free to make music however we want, with whatever tools we want - thank you Props, for expanding our palette of creative choices.

But I get why some folks might be uncomfortable with VSTs. Even though I use VSTs all the time, for some unknown irrational reason I just can't get with Kontakt instruments, so I never use them, but I'm trying really hard to break thru that mental barrier, because I know there's some excellent stuff that I'm missing out on.

And all this talk of VSTs constantly crashing is way overblown. I have over 300 active VSTs in my library, made up of high-end, mid-range, and free plugins, and I've only ever encountered about 3 or 4 that crashed or simply wouldn't load in Reason. I promptly remove them and continue making music with the hundreds of VSTs that work flawlessly - it's just not that big a deal.

[dustmoses]

I'm in reason 9.2 because I don't need VST in reason.

If I get 10 with VST disabled, is there any performance drop (with the same rack devices/res not talking about new stuff.)

[madmacman]

What's all the fuss about? The Props never said we HAVE to use VSTs, they just gave us the option. We're free to make music however we want, with whatever tools we want - thank you Props, for expanding our palette of creative choices.

True, but imho this is only the minor part of the complaints. The main reproach is, with introduction of VST support the stability and efficiency of Reason core has been degraded significantly. And this also affects people who don't use VST at all.

[antic604]

But I get why some folks might be uncomfortable with VSTs. Even though I use VSTs all the time, for some unknown irrational reason I just can't get with Kontakt instruments, so I never use them, but I'm trying really hard to break thru that mental barrier, because I know there's some excellent stuff that I'm missing out on.

For me the 'barrier' is how they're integrated into the Rack - native devices & REs all are fully visible there, whereas VSTs get this Combinator-like anonymous faceplate (yes, I know about the screenshot - that doesn't cut it for me).

For me THE thing about Reason is its Rack, so until VSTs are somehow integrated in it, I'll avoid using them if I can.

[Ahornberg]

Using VST is an option. Some VSTs don't have a counterpart in Reason. On the other hand there's also Rewire. From a pragmatic point of view I would say, use the tools you need to get the sound you want to achieve.

[NekujaK]

What's all the fuss about? The Props never said we HAVE to use VSTs, they just gave us the option. We're free to make music however we want, with whatever tools we want - thank you Props, for expanding our palette of creative choices.

True, but imho this is only the minor part of the complaints. The main reproach is, with introduction of VST support the stability and efficiency of Reason core has been degraded significantly. And this also affects people who don't use VST at all.

It's just an evolutionary hiccup that unfortunately sometimes happens. The same was true when Reason 3.0 was initially released. It was a big step backwards in terms of performance and stability, but the Props eventually addressed the issues and got back on track. It's the nature of software development. The major problem with the current situation is the Props have been slow to respond with a fix.

For me the 'barrier' is how they're integrated into the Rack - native devices & REs all are fully visible there, whereas VSTs get this Combinator-like anonymous faceplate (yes, I know about the screenshot - that doesn't cut it for me).

For me THE thing about Reason is its Rack, so until VSTs are somehow integrated in it, I'll avoid using them if I can.

I think the Props did an admirable job integrating VSTs into the rack. Considering many VSTs have resizable GUIs, are generally larger than REs, don't have a "back panel", and aren't all proportioned like a standard rack device, it would require a complete redesign of the rack itself for VSTs to fully integrate into the rack (this topic has already been discussed to death in other threads). I'm just glad they didn't try to confine VSTs to the current rack, since I already find many REs annoyingly small, and VSTs would be even worse.

[EnochLight]

It's just an evolutionary hiccup that unfortunately sometimes happens. The same was true when Reason 3.0 was initially released. It was a big step backwards in terms of performance and stability, but the Props eventually addressed the issues and got back on track. It's the nature of software development. The major problem with the current situation is the Props have been slow to respond with a fix.

I was there (and beta testing) from Reason 2.0 to 2.5 and then 3.0, and while there was a maintenance fix to address issues in 3.01 to 3.05, the performance issues were nowhere near as bad compared to what happened with 9.5/10. At least, not like how it is now. The performance fix came with 3.03, but my system at the time was hardly affected by it. I do remember some users reporting issues, though (I think it had something to do with specific settings on the MClass stuff, Subtractor or something like that). It was a long time ago! #old_man_memory

EDIT: actually found a thread listing the fixes. Yeah, there was some hefty performance fixes with 3.03. I guess I just got lucky:

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/inde ... opic=335.0

New in Reason 3.0.5

Reason 3.0.5 is now available for download. Although this version is mainly about adding support for Apple's new range of Intel equipped Macs, a number of issues in previous versions have been addressed.

Fixes in Reason 3.0.5
These are the issues that were fixed in the 3.0.5 update:

Supports horizontal scrolling
Reason now supports horizontal scrolling and can be used with Apples Mighty Mouse.

Installs ReWire 1.7
Reason install the new version of ReWire which increases performance. Reason can now be ReWired to the current versions of:

Ableton Live
Apple Garageband
Apple Logic

Cross-browsing
We've fixed a minor issue with crossbrowsing that could result in a crash.

Controller-lanes
We've fixed an issue where Reason could crash when copy and pasting controller lanes in the editor.

Transposing
Fixed an issue with transposing beyond the limits of the sequencer (Above G8 and below C-2)
Reason 3.0.4

Reason 3.0.4 is available for download. This is a maintenance update for Reason 3.0 users that resolves a few minor issues. Enjoy!

Fixes in Reason 3.0.4
These are the issues that were fixed in the 3.0.4 update:

Export as audio file
There was an issue in Reason 3.0.3 (on Windows) that could cause weird sounds when exporting a song or loop to an audio file. This was most likely to appear when using certain Scream settings. This happened only when exporting audio as everything sounded fine when listening to Reason directly or running Reason in a ReWire host. This has now been fixed.

MIDI import
The MIDI import functionality in Reason 2.5 accepted some MIDI file data that the Reason sequencer could not handle. This could for example be bad controller data outside the sequencer timeline. Saving this bad data to a song made that song unloadable, causing a "Bad Format" alert. In Reason 3.0 we made MIDI import stricter and also changed song loading so that bad data was skipped instead of showing the alert. Unfortunately there were some problems with this handling, which we have now taken care of.

Loading old songs
Some songs produced in Reason 2.5 could not be loaded in Reason 3.0 or 3.0.3. We have addressed some issues regarding NNXT patch data created by some patch conversion utilities, where Reason 3.0 is stricter than Reason 2.5 was.

Cross-browsing
There were some situations with cross-browsing (replacing a device by loading a patch of a different device type) that caused "Unknown Exception" alerts in Reason 3.0 and 3.0.3. This has now been fixed.

Combined note handling
Sending overlapping notes from the sequencer to a Combinator that contained a Malström in Legato mode could cause hanging notes in Reason 3.0 and 3.0.3. For example, drawing two C4 notes where the second note starts before the first ends, and setting the track target to the Combinator produced different results than setting the track target to the Malström. This has now been fixed.

Missing icons in Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)
After installing Reason 3.0.3 in Mac OS X 10.4 refills icons could change appearance and turn blank. Also all wave and aiff files were wrongly associated to Reason. Both of these issues were a result of new handling of file types in Mac OS X 10.4. This has now been fixed.

The Orkester refill as it appears on the CD will still be wrong as this error exist on the physical CD. This will be fixed in the next batch of printed CDs.
Reason 3.0.3

In addition to the things listed above, Reason 3.0.4 naturally also contains the features and fixes introduced in Reason 3.0.3. The following things were new in Reason 3.0.3.

Additions in Reason 3.0.3

Added Remote support for the Frontier Design Group TranzPort wireless controller
Added Remote support for the M-Audio Ozonic
Track mute and solo for selected track now controllable from Remote


Reason 3.0.2
We initially released a version called 3.0.2 that was replaced by 3.0.3 only hours later. Version 3.0.2 had an anomaly that would cause problem when browsing very long file lists with the browser. The problem only affected the Mac platform. If you have version 3.0.2, we recommend that you download and install Reason 3.0.3 from the download section.

Fixes in Reason 3.0.3

This is a list of issues in Reason 3.0 that were fixed in the 3.0.3 update:

Keyboard Control
There was a problem with Keyboard Control in 3.0 that could get Reason to crash, now fixed. Therefore, loading songs produced in 3.0 in version 3.0.3 will clear any Keyboard Control mappings.

Pattern Change Automation
There were some issues with automating pattern changes in 3.0 that made some songs play back differently than in Reason 2.5. Since we now have fixed this, some songs produced in Reason 3.0 will now play back differently in 3.0.3.

Triggering the RV7000 Gate
The function that triggers the RV7000 Gate via MIDI didn't work at all.

"Bad Format" when opening NN-XT patches or songs
If an NN-XT patch references samples with names (or folder names) that include exotic characters, the patch may not load properly in Reason 3.0. This is fixed in 3.0.3.

Remote Override of Dr.REX Preview
Remote Override mappings for the Dr.REX Preview button were lost when opening a song. This is fixed in 3.0.3.

Replace mode recording
Recording in Replace mode played back the notes being overwritten. This is now fixed. Note that replace recording is only activated for automation data after the automated controller is modified.

Loud noise when playing back in Loop mode
When playing back an NN-XT patch with Loop activated on the transport bar, the NN-XT could in Reason 3.0 produce a loud transient noise at the loop end position. Fixed.

"Unknown Exception" on startup (Windows only)
A few Reason and Reason Adapted users got an "Unknown Exception" alert when trying to launch Reason 3.0. This was caused by incorrect handling of ReWire and/or REX dll files already installed with missing or corrupt version information. Fixed.

"Internal Error" when opening a Reason song in ReWire mode (Windows only)
When using Reason with a ReWire host and attempting to load songs or patches with a very large number of samples (e.g. Reason Drum Kits patches), some users got an "Internal Error" alert in Reason 3.0. Fixed.

No hard drives shown in the Browser (Windows only)
Under some circumstances, the browser in Reason 3.0 would not show hard drives under My Computer. Fixed.

New files not shown in the Browser (Windows only)
Some users found that newly created files were not shown in the Reason 3.0 browser. Fixed.

Wrong file dates and times shown in the Browser (Windows only)
The Reason 3.0 browser showed all file dates using GMT time, instead of local time. Fixed.

Automation of Combinator controls
When you automated a Combinator control (button or rotary) and played back the automation in Reason 3.0, there was a tiny delay before the Combinator passed on the information to the devices within it. Fixed.

Pattern device Resolution can no longer be remoted
The Resolution parameter on the Redrum and Matrix could not be controlled remotely. Fixed.

Hard to edit sequencer data during playback
In Reason 2.5, "Follow Song" was temporarily disabled when you pressed the mouse button. This feature did not work properly in Reason 3.0, but is now fixed.

Program continues to draw or move data just after I release the mouse button (Mac only)
The program was slow to react when the user released the mouse button. This has been addressed and is much better in 3.0.3. This can unfortunately still be noticeable on lower performing computers.

Remote issues
For some users with M-Audio Radium keyboards, the Remote implementation doesn't work properly in Reason 3.0. It turns out there are two different Radium models, with different settings in factory preset 1 (just like Oxygen 8). Reason 3.0.3 includes support for both the old and the new Radium models.

Performance problems
Several performance and CPU usage issues with Reason 3.0 have been found. There were for example problems with certain settings on the MClass Equalizer, the DLL-1 delay and the Subtractor's noise generator, which could all cause occasional high loads on the CPU. All these issues and many more have been isolated and fixed in 3.0.3.

Overall performance optimizations
All components of the audio engine and the user interface have gone through extensive profiling which has significantly increased performance of Reason 3.0.3 compared to 3.0.
We have also been able to optimize sample loading performance so that loading times for samples have decreased further in Reason 3.0.3.


All in all we are extremely thankful for all the help from our dedicated beta testers. We're happy and proud to release the best version of the best music software product in the known universe. Thank you all!

But this x 10000:

I think the Props did an admirable job integrating VSTs into the rack. Considering many VSTs have resizable GUIs, are generally larger than REs, don't have a "back panel", and aren't all proportioned like a standard rack device, it would require a complete redesign of the rack itself for VSTs to fully integrate into the rack (this topic has already been discussed to death in other threads). I'm just glad they didn't try to confine VSTs to the current rack, since I already find many REs annoyingly small, and VSTs would be even worse.

I think Reason's VST-integration is probably my favorite out of all the DAW I've used.

[Troyvasanth]

Perhaps a better plugin management will be great, Where one can selectively enable plugins.

You can. Under ‘Window’ there’s a plugin manager.

Thanks a lot.. how did I miss this.. I feel stupid he he..

[bsp]

"No - I use VST's with Reason"

A while ago I mentioned that I'm working on a DAW.

Well, I tried working with VSTs-only for a (short) while until I realized that I was missing Reason (and some of its great REs) a lot.

So I turned that DAW into a metahost VST plugin, which can then be loaded into Reason.

Here's a (work-in-progress) video of what it looks like at the moment:

see the video description for more info on why this is great, even though it's most certainly not super pretty
e.g.

• non-destructive, relative VST parameter modulation
• proper multi core support (including multi-core FX chains, very nice for ambient music)
• each track is basically a "super-combinator"
• very fast patch browsing (via instance caching)
• patch variations (for the undecisive)
• support for all MIDI message types
• multi-channel MIDI
• MPE (even for synths that do not support it out of the box!)
• ..

So yes, I am very glad that Reason supports VSTs. Best of two worlds in my opinion.

[groggy1]

I personally love VSTs in Reason. But I was thinking about it, and here's the various reasons people have posted by they don't like VSTs in Reason:
1) It may make Reason less stable (and the response from others is usually "if you don't use VSTs, it's the same as before"
2) Because people want Reason to be a self-contained instrument, not a DAW - I can understand this: If you truly loved reason before, and used it as an instrument, you don't want it to change into something else
3) Because people are hungry for more REs (that integrate fantastically with Reason), and VSTs have (probably) slowed-down the development of new RE instruments/effects
4) Because you feel like the time that Props used to develop VST support could have instead been used to develop 10 other features (like better MIDI editing, etc)

Anyway, just trying to put myself in the shoes of others who don't like VSTs. I respect your viewpoint.

[S1GNL]

Just a tip to avoid headaches with VSTs:

Save the Reason VST patch/preset AND the preset inside the VST every time you want to keep made changes.

Plus, make a screenshot (e.g. with SnippIt) and save it in your song folder - some VSTs don't save EVERY tweak and setting adjustment (Kontakt, UJAM VG).

[avasopht]

@bsp: brilliant work!

Who knows, maybe some day your code will get acquired and you can retire to a beachside condo where you may code and make speakers squirm to your heart's content.

[michal22]

Greater opportunities are always better than limitations.
I only miss sidechain support in some plugins and midi support.

[hurricane]

So just out of curiosity I wanted to know how many of us are sailing in the same boat.

So, did you think the results would be the opposite?

[sublunar]

At first, when I heard about VSTs in Reason I was excited for the possibilities. I never used VST plugins before. Only standalones. I started loading up. Then I realized I like the Rack Extensions better. I removed all extraneous VSTs and currently I'm only running one VST plugin in any of my tracks, that being EZ drummer. And honestly, I don't even like EZ Drummer, it's a crippled piece of garbage. Will be either moving to Superior Drummer 3 or something else entirely. Don't need any other VST plugins.

[bsp]

@groggy1: it's true that before VSTs were added, Reason practically never crashed (at least in my experience).
It's still very stable once you've sorted out the "bad egg" VSTs, though.
As some have already said, there are things VSTs can do that REs can't.
However, you don't need them just like you don't really *need* REs. They are still nice to have, though.

I don't think that VST support was the reason that no other (major) features have been added in the recent updates, so I don't agree with 4)
It's not _that_ hard, and as far as I read, the code has basically been around for 10 years and just needed some polishing.

@bsp: brilliant work!

Who knows, maybe some day your code will get acquired and you can retire to a beachside condo where you may code and make speakers squirm to your heart's content.

thanks and haha wouldn't that be something !
although: it would be a bit selfish and at the risk of not being in the best interest of the users. It's not unheard of that SW that gets bought out eventually disappears in a drawer somewhere, never to be seen again.
Well, for now I'll continue burning the midnight oil and "wasting" some overtime, weekends and holidays for this.

I like the way it went with Blender (was crowd-funded and became open source) but you need a lot of users for this.
(on a side note, donations / pay-what-you-want simply don't work. I've tried it in the past, and so have other devs (including Propellerhead))

Unfortunately, the market for special purpose audio tools is very small, a few thousand units already mean a huge success.
If you want to make money with software/audio plugins, you're better off releasing many small devices rather than one big one (it's not unlike the indie games market).

Putting up a paywall around the product could also easily result in only few people using it (unless you do a lot of advertising, which is not my thing).

Then there's the moral aspect to it. Compared to many other parts of the world, I'm already very fortunate as a European (well, and I have a daytime job. doesn't make me filthy rich but it's enough to get by).

Finally, the support aspect. In case of this meta-host plugin, writing a software that allows ppl to load all kinds of 3rd party binaries could be a real support nightmare, and I don't really have the resources for any support to begin with (or proper manuals, which are still on my todo-list).

So, it will probably be a free binary, and maybe I'll open-source it at some point.


Anyways, here's a (last) demo video that I just recorded. Today I added modmatrix input and velocity mappers (via cubic spline editors), it's a really useful feature:

p.s.: The reason why I posted the previous video in the first place is that after I recorded it in order to show it to someone else in private, I had to learn that Vimeo does not allow you to set a video status to private and just send out the link to some individuals, unless you have a pro account, which I don't.
So I either had to delete it, or simply make it available to everyone (and why not post it here then).
Not meaning to derail your thread, please carry on!

[Auryn]

Anyways, here's a (last) demo video that I just recorded. Today I added modmatrix input and velocity mappers (via cubic spline editors), it's a really useful feature:

Impressive video! I've been trying to picture the workings of your DAW according to your descriptions but seeing you work with it yourself is something else entirely. Also, at that taskbar!

[Troyvasanth]

So just out of curiosity I wanted to know how many of us are sailing in the same boat.

So, did you think the results would be the opposite?

Not at all. Its pretty much close to what I expected.
I really wish VST gets optimized soon. I will use VST if the CPU hit is not high.

[Oquasec]

Meh, to each their own. If I want vsts again I'll pick Ableton Live up.

[Faastwalker]

I was never a fan of the idea of VST support in Reason. But now it's here, and with the sublime way it has been implemented, I love it. I only have a handful of VSTs but it's great to be able to use them in Reason. The last VST I bought, before Reason supported the format, was GForce's ImpOSCar many, many years ago now. I bought the Arturia Buchla Easel V not long ago. Bloody awesome that. But I'd still rather buy RE's wherever possible.