Why isn't synthesis and sampling combined in Reason yet?

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RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Mar 2018

I always created sounds from scratch with Subtractor. Never sounded as good as sampled instruments though! Thus, I exported raw synth sounds and drums, then continued editing in NNXT. By setting sample start, they got that missing sharp click and my desired synchronized feel. Not to mention a surprise keyboard tracking effect where lower notes got less fidelity and higher ones got brighter. It's not for everyone's tastes though, but that can be helped with a lot of multi sampling extra work. Anyway, this is just a fraction of what possibilities it opens. Clearly there's the effect where you duplicate your sample and offset their pitch, resulting in that delicious retro, thick, colorful effect. Or when you invert the phase of the duplicate(s), getting a thinning effect. Then multiplication, where you set the sample start differently for one of two (or more) samples, and again the opposite with an inverted phase, resulting in subtraction effect, just like on Subtractor!

Done with the back story, I wonder, why isn't there a synthesizer yet which would work just like that? With a generator-level and then a sampling level. One that would take care of all the hassle and resurrect some of those very powerful, long lost effects? Yes, I heard of Europa and Grain. But not only are they different, but also separate. (I do droll over the phase and ringing-free filter in Europa (seems to be the perfect filter that beats FIR and IIR), but I don't understand why that isn't possible for sampled sounds - even if it can't be done live.) What would be wrong with an ultimate synthesizer? There always are the ones with a lot of features, but not an all-in-one solution that combines everything.

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normen
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11 Mar 2018

But in Reason you can plug that all together? You can route the output of an NNXT to the oscillator input of a Thor and whatnot?

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Mar 2018

You're right that the sampler's sound can be changed in those ways, but what I meant was something different. As far as I've experienced, it's not possible to achieve any authentic sounding "sampled" effects like I described, with a "live" generated sound coming from a virtual analog synth in Reason.
That's why it would make sense to me that a synthesizer would first generate the sound I want; then it would take it to the next level of sample editing. Sort of doing the dirty job (and more), than having to export/bounce a long C3 note from Subtractor, then loading into NNXT. Each world has its own unique possibilities.

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selig
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11 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:You're right that the sampler's sound can be changed in those ways, but what I meant was something different. As far as I've experienced, it's not possible to achieve any authentic sounding "sampled" effects like I described, with a "live" generated sound coming from a virtual analog synth in Reason.
That's why it would make sense to me that a synthesizer would first generate the sound I want; then it would take it to the next level of sample editing. Sort of doing the dirty job (and more), than having to export/bounce a long C3 note from Subtractor, then loading into NNXT. Each world has its own unique possibilities.
Not sure I’m following everything here, but one thing you can do to save a few steps is to sample directly from the Subtractor into the NNXT. Requires a few cables from Subtractor to the main Sample Input, but it’s a breeze after that.


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RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Mar 2018

I'm dreaming about a hybrid synthesizer and sampler, where it does all that automatically. The solutions are good, but time consuming.

Plus I think it would be handy if a sampler could create the doubling effects I mentioned with the turn of a knob. Now, they may appear as tools for sound design professionals, but actually they are pretty basic and simple - and sound awesome. Not everything has to be live. Sampling your own sounds has its own magic. And some more "dead" editing/analyzing would be useful, too.

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selig
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11 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:I'm dreaming about a hybrid synthesizer and sampler, where it does all that automatically. The solutions are good, but time consuming.

Plus I think it would be handy if a sampler could create the doubling effects I mentioned with the turn of a knob. Now, they may appear as tools for sound design professionals, but actually they are pretty basic and simple - and sound awesome. Not everything has to be live. Sampling your own sounds has its own magic. And some more "dead" editing/analyzing would be useful, too.
I understood that - thought you might like a solution to the “time consuming” part while you wait for your dream device. I’m more of a “get it done now” rather than “wait for my dream device guy” (but I DO like to dream too).


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RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

11 Mar 2018

Actually, I just solve that by having a temp file set up with a Subtractor, that plays 4 or 16 bars of a C3 note. Then I create the desired sound and export. (This was the Sound Generator level.)
Afterwards, I can normalize the sound and load into NNXT, set up the sample start and export again. (That's my basic sample editing level.)
Next step I load the cut sample into NNXT and the doubling effects can begin. (This step can be repeated many times, but it's a very long story. Results are always very unique. Just gotta compare with earlier exports, do dry/wet comparisons, and stop when it starts sounding horrible.)
Finally (?) the more common sound design can start, with dynamics, filtering, modulation, etc.

Sure, live is important, but like I say, there is a huge difference between what sounds can be achieved with sampling and multiplication.

I wanted to get into Rack Extensions and do free devices, but yeah, that needs a company (expensive), and DSP coding (not the thing for a module person).
I have so many ideas that I could create...

Of course, thank you for the help/input - I don't want to come off as a rude know-it-all.

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Oquasec
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12 Mar 2018

oh he wants grain & Re
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

13 Mar 2018

Have Re, soon gonna get Grain.
Coding DSP would be nice, but not my field.

I'm afraid, it will in fact be an extra step with some of Grain's useful features. Not that I complain. Sure, I understood the idea behind Grain, but it's not the same as what I meant.

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O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

13 Mar 2018

You want a DigiTakt in Reason, i see: (maye, a minologue)


- A digital and highly flexible sound engine, sampling capability, a live-friendly sequencer, dedicated tracks...
Pre-loaded with heaps of great electronic and acoustic sounds.
Drums, percussion, synths, and FX are all part of the sound palette.
1 × Multi-mode filter per audio track
1 × Assignable LFO per track
Sampling capability, Resampling and Resampling and Resampling, and then..... RESET.

$750 for Digitakt.... and the programming still isn't complete. That would be one interesting RE.

You sound like you know exactly what you want. And you know how to do it.
Maybe this Thread will conjure one up. The devices/capabilities now makes this a Great Time. I feel lucky.
RobC wrote:
11 Mar 2018
I always created sounds from scratch with Subtractor. Never sounded as good as sampled instruments though! Thus, I exported raw synth sounds and drums, then continued editing in NNXT.
- By setting sample start, they got that missing sharp click and my desired synchronized feel.
- Not to mention a surprise keyboard tracking effect where lower notes got less fidelity and higher ones got brighter.
... this is just a fraction of what possibilities it opens.
... - duplicate your sample and offset their pitch, resulting in that delicious retro, thick, colorful effect.
... - invert the phase of the duplicate(s), getting a thinning effect.
... - multiplication, where you set the sample start differently for one of two (or more) samples,
- and again the opposite with an inverted phase, resulting in subtraction effect, just like on Subtractor!

... I wonder, why isn't there a synthesizer yet which would work just like that?
With a generator-level and then a sampling level. There always are the ones with a lot of features, but not an all-in-one solution that combines everything.

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O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

13 Mar 2018

How's this for Synthesis and Sampling? All possible in Reason. You left out a lot of syntheses in your description.

This is JUST the (Voltage Controlled) Mixer Section of the (Synth)... it's all about Articulation....
I changed my mind. Arturia made it easy to invest in 6U worth of proper eurorack modules.

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

13 Mar 2018

FL Studio (I think) has a sampler that will automatically multisample any synth or instrument you point it at.
If you enjoy resampling, it'd be such a fun feature.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

13 Mar 2018

My thought was sort of like the mentioned features. Of course, I didn't start mentioning every single type of synthesis, but I believe the main categories are:
1. When you generate a signal in a (virtual) analog realm, live
2. The "dead" sampling stage
Both have their similarities, differences, advantages and disadvantages. It can only once be sort of live.

Digitally, it would be possible to create a "programmable" synthesizer where you choose what you want to do next with your sound.
Like, create an oscillator, add another one, morph them together, then clone the signal, offset any feature you want; next you decide you want to modulate it, so you set up the modulator signal, changing it with any features you desire before you use it for ring, FM, LFO, etc modulation. And if need be, the generated sound could be grouped and changed further with any tools. Both live and sampled will have different results - for whichever modulation type is possible of course. Yes, these are just a few I mentioned.
Reactor is capable of such, but it's not easy and straight forward where I could choose what I want with a few mouse clicks. Building a synth for the needs for 1 sound all the time isn't very efficient.

Many DAWs have unique features, but I trust Reason more. They all should unite. (I know, world peace.) It would certainly be a useful feature. Though sometimes using just one sample is a better solution, especially when using FM and lower notes start making a gargling sound.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

13 Mar 2018

I can't help but see this in this thread:

Q: I want to do everything.
A: You can in Reason.
Q: Yeah but it's too complicated to do everything.

I mean you CAN do most of the things you describe if I understood everything correctly.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

13 Mar 2018

Yes, most/part of, but not all of them. ...and not too efficiently.

I'll probably get into Reactor, too with Reason. Then there will be even less limits. (Or no limits, if I spend 5 years with learning DSP programming.)

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

13 Mar 2018

I need a coffee...

A multi-level sound generator with any possible modules
- working hand in hand with a built in
multi-level sampler (that samples the sound generator) that likewise can be tweaked with any possible modules, in any way you want

I think that should sum it up.

antic604

13 Mar 2018

Am I the only one who doesn't have a clue what this thread is about?

I mean you can do very lively and non-static sounds even with Subtractor, using the on-board dials to modulate stuff in response to 2 LFOs & Mod Envelope, Velocity, Mod Wheel or Aftertouch. And that's even before flipping it back to hook up CVs. And that's just the most basic virtual analog synth, available since Reason 1 (I think, I got on board with 10).

If anything, Reason gives me too many options already so that I can't move forward with my music because I'm constantly tweaking stuff... :D

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O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

13 Mar 2018

Im with you - in that, all described in the OP - plus CV.. all using just Subtractor and a few utilities, are IN Reason.

There's also duplicating synths, line 6:2 or 14 mixer, spread, detune, .. basically Hydlide.

But I get OPs meaning about a mega re-combi-synthi-sampl-ater. It would be a thing of beauty.
- As it stands, Subtractor is JUST a regular ole synth.
- But what if you could drag n drop 'created' waveforms BACK into a track within Subt - designing Proper Detune/ Spread, Layer, Modulation, etc? (Digitakt)

. Without it, you're not able to explore the full capabilities of the patch without
- tabbing to the invisible back
- running out of combi connections
- runniing out of space on an 6:2 mixer
- running out of ideas
Forget about dynamically controlling the AMP, Filter, and MOD sections (in a combi so you get visual feedback) with only so many Combi connections. (one-knobbing the Velocity section of the Subtractor gets predictable.)

It is pretty tedious right now. We should be linking the A or S in the AMP ENV to the Key Tracking.... or Rez... or LFO rate,
with just a GUI-type virtual connection. How 'bout dat?
antic604 wrote:
13 Mar 2018
Am I the only one who doesn't have a clue what this thread is about?

I mean you can do very lively and non-static sounds even with Subtractor, using the on-board dials to modulate stuff in response to 2 LFOs & Mod Envelope, Velocity, Mod Wheel or Aftertouch. And that's even before flipping it back to hook up CVs. And that's just the most basic virtual analog synth, available since Reason 1 (I think, I got on board with 10).

If anything, Reason gives me too many options already so that I can't move forward with my music because I'm constantly tweaking stuff... :D

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O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

13 Mar 2018

Now, you really sound like you're talking about hardware. And, these things exist.
Why aren't they combined?

Akai, Teenage Engineering, Elektron, and some other high powers JUST worked out their reSampling.
Resampling has been asked for for years. I've been watching. They all basically JUST got here. 2017. all of 'em.
And, they CO$T.

You're just a little ahead of your time wanting it in a DAW.
RobC wrote:
13 Mar 2018
I need a coffee...

A multi-level sound generator with any possible modules
- working hand in hand with a built in
multi-level sampler (that samples the sound generator) that likewise can be tweaked with any possible modules, in any way you want

I think that should sum it up.

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emilng
Posts: 99
Joined: 03 Oct 2017

13 Mar 2018

I would take a look at the Polar RE https://www.propellerheads.se/en/reason ... ions/polar it seems like it does a bunch of what you're looking for. It's not as simple as having it in the same synth, but it's pretty simple to either drag it into your insert or right after your synth and have it wired up automatically. If you need something more complex then maybe look into Fritz RE or Buffre RE.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

13 Mar 2018

Personally, I hate that synthesizers are kind of limited, be it fixed routing, a few lacking features, etc. (I've been doing the resampling since 2009 btw. - I thought with the two detuned samples trick, I invented a new effect, haha! Not. Yeah, I reinvented the wheel...)
Considering powerful computers, and looking at Reaktor, I don't see where the problem is to create such synth module playground. I mean, there's the app, Caustic that sort of tries similar (though more like a hardware analog modular system).
All this would do, is exactly what you want and need. Nothing more, nothing confusing. But unlimited possibilities. Hell, I even joked in 2012 or so with Propellerhead that they should make a Rack Extension Lego kit and even asked, why don't they release quarter-size rack devices in Reason, like just an oscillator, or a simple filter, a volume knob, etc.
At this point, and after seeing how Reaktor works, I'm more interested in a programming system like you see in Combinator or Thor, BUT you could add and route anything the way and as many times you want. Down to the smallest bits.

How about: I want maximum sound design control? That way, there would be no sound you couldn't create. But I'd need a more quickly programmable Reaktor-alike instrument.

Those Rack Extensions seem to open a few additional possibilities, I know some of them, though there's a reason why I want to merge both live and sampled worlds. Buffering technology is a mixture of... well, live sampling, sort of.

The more I try to clear up what I mean, the more confusing it gets.

I should have titled it "sound generation and resampling merged", but I eventually broke it down to total synthesized freedom.

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2908
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

13 Mar 2018

RobC wrote:
11 Mar 2018
I always created sounds from scratch with Subtractor. Never sounded as good as sampled instruments though! Thus, I exported raw synth sounds and drums, then continued editing in NNXT. By setting sample start, they got that missing sharp click and my desired synchronized feel. Not to mention a surprise keyboard tracking effect where lower notes got less fidelity and higher ones got brighter. It's not for everyone's tastes though, but that can be helped with a lot of multi sampling extra work. Anyway, this is just a fraction of what possibilities it opens. Clearly there's the effect where you duplicate your sample and offset their pitch, resulting in that delicious retro, thick, colorful effect. Or when you invert the phase of the duplicate(s), getting a thinning effect. Then multiplication, where you set the sample start differently for one of two (or more) samples, and again the opposite with an inverted phase, resulting in subtraction effect, just like on Subtractor!

Done with the back story, I wonder, why isn't there a synthesizer yet which would work just like that? With a generator-level and then a sampling level. One that would take care of all the hassle and resurrect some of those very powerful, long lost effects? Yes, I heard of Europa and Grain. But not only are they different, but also separate. (I do droll over the phase and ringing-free filter in Europa (seems to be the perfect filter that beats FIR and IIR), but I don't understand why that isn't possible for sampled sounds - even if it can't be done live.) What would be wrong with an ultimate synthesizer? There always are the ones with a lot of features, but not an all-in-one solution that combines everything.
One point I'll pick up here is the lack of oscillator phase lock on the Subtractor and Thor. That's one feature I'd really like to see for consistent attack in my bass patches. That would get you halfway to the sound you're after, and then after that a little simple filter tracking + low bandwidth mode would probably sort you out!

But really what you're describing overall is a modular system, which is also something I would love to see in PH (did I ever mention it before? Oh only like 50 bazillion times!). VCV Rack is gonna be getting a VST wrapper soon and if you haven't checked that out yet, I strongly urge you to! It's an amazing (and largely free) modular environment. If you can think of something in your head, you can make it. I think this'd get you where you wanna be, maybe even more so than Reaktor/Blocks. As much as I like it, I still really miss the cabling and real world feel, which VCV has in spades.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Mar 2018

True, a phase lock would be useful. I wasn't really fond of how the sound always had a free run. Interestingly, after a specific version, when exporting a sound with Subtractor, it always started like it was phase locked, but only at the start.
The more complicated things get though, the more CPU demanding. Especially when it comes to multiplication effects; plus that would require some capability to phase lock multiple devices with each other. That's where sampling becomes a cleaner, easier solution.
I think it more or less could work that way, all in all, but sampling still has a unique touch to it. I mean, it's a fixed waveform, you can cut wherever, do reversing, etc.

Haven't heard of VCV Rack yet, looks promising. Especially if it will work with Reason - even if just as a VST (I like it when stuff can be put into Reason's rack directly like with Rack Extensions.)

jlgrimes
Posts: 661
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

14 Mar 2018

I’m guessing that’s why they created the Combinator to layer different synths together.

Reason somewhat has this. If they broke up the modules a bit more though it could be more flexible.

RobC
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

14 Mar 2018

I love Reason's possibilities, let me make that clear. However, I've grown to have desire for complete flexibility.

I mean, yes, responses usually say that Reason sort of has these features, but "sort of" means not exactly.

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