[feature idea] In-Rack Eurorack system

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
User avatar
antic604
Posts: 2265
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 08 Mar 2018

The name says it all - an updated RE SDK should allow to add new (visually, at least) class of devices to Reason's Rack, ie. Eurorack panels, to which we could "install" modules like you can with real modular systems: oscillators, envelopes, filters, gates, delays, grain processors, etc. Propellerheads should supply the basic set of modules, while 3rd parties should add their own creations & emulations.

Now I know we already have bits & pieces of that in RE shop, but they're all over the place in terms of looks, design, functionality, etc. The beauty of Eurorack is how much stuff you can pack in a reasonably small space and arrange it to taste, using small vertical modules. And that you have the cables right there on the front. Obviously, this would probably require uprez of the GUI and zoom in/out capability, but I hope it's coming anyway.

Just look at this:

reason.jpg

Really, this would be a great selling point to ride the current hype-wave for anything modular - just post a screenshot of such a setup in a DAW and count the money flowing in :) Sure you can have Reaktor in Live or Cubase, but you'll see it only as a anonymous box with few knobs in the DAW itself. Reason could change that and integrate it properly.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 2265
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 08 Mar 2018

The feedback-to-views ratio is interesting...
Apparently I'm the only one who'd enjoy that :)
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
chimp_spanner
Posts: 2110
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Post 08 Mar 2018

VCV Rack is really amazing. Can't wait for the VST bridge!

I've been asking for something like this in Reason for a long time, as I find it a little hard to build something coherent with the assorted pile of racks and modules I currently have. Buuuuut I'm not sure front patching would work. Personally I'd be happy with rear cabling - it'd still be better than Reaktor Blocks where the "cables" are hidden inside the patch entirely. I'd also welcome the return of the half rack format (or otherwise just compact, single function racks), all PH branded with a nice clean design. Like an envelope with gate in, cv ins for ADSR and a level output. Not 8 or 10 stages, not Poly CV. Not tonnes of outputs. Just back to the basics. Same with the oscillators too. Simple, high quality virtual analogue oscillators (with room for some more exotic types eventually, from PH or 3rd party devs).

I imagine it'd be way easier to pump out single function modules than entire synths, so the Prop Shop could have a "rack modules" category full of utility modules, sound sources, sequencers, all made within a certain design spec.

I'm not sure it'll ever happen, but it's still nice to think about! :D However I think the appeal of modular is still pretty limited. Not everyone is a wire junkie like us haha.
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

2017 MBP | 16GB | Steinberg UR44 | Reason 10.4 | Cubase Pro 10.5

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

Post 08 Mar 2018

It is amazing. I've been using it a lot more than Reason of late, but I think Propellerhead are moving in the opposite direction. I'm guessing cables will be gone from the iPad version (if they ever ship it), and they don't really seem much interested in CV connectivity any more (look at the back of their latest REs).

Your best bet is the bridge when it arrives (should be any day now).

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 2265
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 08 Mar 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Buuuuut I'm not sure front patching would work. Personally I'd be happy with rear cabling - it'd still be better than Reaktor Blocks where the "cables" are hidden inside the patch entirely.
I think a clever implementation could help, for example it would only show the cables going in/out of the module you're hovering over (similar to how 'K' shortcut works at the back of the Rack). I'm insisting on this because that would be a HUGE visual differentiator comparing to how all the other DAWs handle plugins and Reason should double down on this, rather than try to hide its "virtual hardware studio" paradigm.

A cooperation with VCV Rack to port their system would be a dream come true. A rack in a rack. A rack squared, if you will :thumbs_up:
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
Loque
Posts: 5800
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 08 Mar 2018

I would appreciate a more modular thing in general in Reason in any case. Lets say, i can exchange a oscillator from dev A within a synth from dev B. Through the CV in/outs and some Audio in/outs it gets close, but its a different thing to replace a filter per voice instead of complete audio signal - to have the same results i need to make the synth mono and duplicate it per number of voices.

Just imagine you could integrate Parsec's oscillator into Europa and use Primals Ladder Filter per voice. Stick the output of a oscillator into a granular engine. Or a big Mod Matrix which i could stick into a synth and program it there. Man, i would get horny...really...

I think, this is the direction VCV goes, but it is actually stand alone and some modules are just mono that makes it very complicated to get a real synth - btw, this is already possible in Reason since years...

And i would like to see not everything in the same look. Just image everything would be white on a complex build up - urgh!
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 2265
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 08 Mar 2018

Loque wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Just imagine you could integrate Parsec's oscillator into Europa and use Primals Ladder Filter per voice. Stick the output of a oscillator into a granular engine. Or a big Mod Matrix which i could stick into a synth and program it there. Man, i would get horny...really...
Well, nothing would stop Props to offer those as modules in idea I described, like NI does for Reaktor Blocks with Monark's oscillator and filter (and other bits from Driver and Rounds).

One can dream :D
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
chimp_spanner
Posts: 2110
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Post 08 Mar 2018

Loque wrote:
08 Mar 2018
I would appreciate a more modular thing in general in Reason in any case. Lets say, i can exchange a oscillator from dev A within a synth from dev B. Through the CV in/outs and some Audio in/outs it gets close, but its a different thing to replace a filter per voice instead of complete audio signal - to have the same results i need to make the synth mono and duplicate it per number of voices.

Just imagine you could integrate Parsec's oscillator into Europa and use Primals Ladder Filter per voice. Stick the output of a oscillator into a granular engine. Or a big Mod Matrix which i could stick into a synth and program it there. Man, i would get horny...really...

I think, this is the direction VCV goes, but it is actually stand alone and some modules are just mono that makes it very complicated to get a real synth - btw, this is already possible in Reason since years...

And i would like to see not everything in the same look. Just image everything would be white on a complex build up - urgh!
Well I think the base modules could have a sorta Eurorack or Doepfer vibe, or maybe something a little more distinctive. But either way a uniform design to distinguish core modules from third party ones. And then from there different devs could just have their own style (but like I said, work within a design spec, similar to Blocks, so you wouldn't have a mix of flat 2D with 3D skeuomorphism for example).

Another, less ambitious idea, would be kinda like you just mentioned. Upgrade Thor to include "nano" versions of oscillators and filters from their other synths. That'd also be good.

But yeah I mean on the mono thing...personally I think that's kinda the charm of it. A lot of the most iconic real world analogue synths and systems are monophonic, if not limited in polyphony, I guess because...like we would have to...duplicating a voice means duplicating all the underlying architecture. It's always good to try and think and work economically, which I guess is why I'm enjoying modular work more these days :)

@Goodbye - I'm not sure you can use Europa and Grain as any kind of evidence that they're abandoning CV. Not that I wouldn't have liked to see a few more inputs but I'm sure there was some kind of design decision or even limitation that caused this to be the case. Either way, between the inputs we do have and the mod matrix I can't say I've found myself wanting more connectivity. Layers...maybe a different story. But again I think it might be a design limitation, because each device is effectively 4 devices, you'd have to replicate CV ins for every parameter per layer. Too much of a good thing ;)

I'm not sure we really have anything to go on as to if there'll be an iPad version or if it'll have patching. I hope the answer is yes to both, though! iPad would be an amazing platform for Reason. Multi touch cabling and panel operation? Yes please!
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

2017 MBP | 16GB | Steinberg UR44 | Reason 10.4 | Cubase Pro 10.5

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

Post 08 Mar 2018

I'm not sure you can use Europa and Grain as any kind of evidence that they're abandoning CV. Not that I wouldn't have liked to see a few more inputs but I'm sure there was some kind of design decision or even limitation that caused this to be the case. Either way, between the inputs we do have and the mod matrix I can't say I've found myself wanting more connectivity. Layers...maybe a different story. But again I think it might be a design limitation, because each device is effectively 4 devices, you'd have to replicate CV ins for every parameter per layer. Too much of a good thing ;)
I think they are more interested in plug and play / rompler style things now. They have made quite an obvious shift in who they are targeting in their promotional material.
I'm not sure we really have anything to go on as to if there'll be an iPad version or if it'll have patching. I hope the answer is yes to both, though! iPad would be an amazing platform for Reason. Multi touch cabling and panel operation? Yes please!
It's coming. No doubt about it. It's the only thing that explains the complete lack of attention to feature requests, bug fixes and performance improvements. They aren't wasting time on the current engine. It's basically been put into maintenance mode. Maybe I'm wrong and they've given up on Reason and are just going to push out romplers from now on, but I think they are concentrating on mobile (and probably a rewrite of the desktop version). I imagine they are trying to share as much code as possible between iPad and desktop which is probably why it is taking them so long.

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 2265
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 08 Mar 2018

Goodbye wrote:
08 Mar 2018
It's coming. No doubt about it. It's the only thing that explains the complete lack of attention to feature requests, bug fixes and performance improvements. They aren't wasting time on the current engine. It's basically been put into maintenance mode. Maybe I'm wrong and they've given up on Reason and are just going to push out romplers from now on, but I think they are concentrating on mobile (and probably a rewrite of the desktop version). I imagine they are trying to share as much code as possible between iPad and desktop which is probably why it is taking them so long.
I wonder if it's a viable business strategy, though?

How much would "mobile" Reason have to cost to actually sell well? There's huge disparity between prices of desktop and mobile apps: Cubasis is $49, FL Studio Mobile is $14... I mean it can be a great side-business to improve & diversify your revenue and encourage new customers, but definitely not (yet) a core product. They still need to work on the desktop app. If only for the fact that "serious" work can't currently and still won't be in the nearest future possible on iOS or Android, due to power constraints and in consequence absence of more high quality plugins. Mobile app can be a great tool to make (musical) drafts on, to work as a single instrument or effect, but not a full-fledged DAW (yet).
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

Post 08 Mar 2018

I wonder if it's a viable business strategy, though?
I honestly don't know what the kids will think about it. Maybe they'll love it, but I think it would need to be massively simplified. It's a potentially huge revenue stream for them and RE devs. It's pretty clear that most current users (on here at least) aren't at all interested. But maybe they can pull it off. If they don't it will probably be the end of the company as they must have ploughed a shit-tonne of money into it by now.

Hopefully I'm wrong and they're just working on a new version of Reason that fixes all the outstanding issues and adds the huge pile of feature requests that have collected in some dusty backroom of Propellerhead HQ (if they aren't just shredding them upon receipt).

User avatar
fieldframe
Posts: 690
Joined: 19 Apr 2016

Post 08 Mar 2018

Reason could support Eurorack-style REs today if the SDK simply supported half-rack devices. Alas, with no new half-rack devices built since 2002, I don't think anyone at Propellerhead still knows how they work. :)

But you know what? Between Reaktor, VCV, and Softube, there are already plenty of virtual Eurorack solutions on the market today. Propellerhead should step up and offer something different, like a natively polyphonic modular system.

Thor is still the closest thing to this, even if it's only semi-modular. I've thought about a fully-modular Thor before, though - may I direct your attention to this post from 2016:
fieldframe wrote:
29 Nov 2016
Fully modular Thor 2 concept

Everything is interchangeable
All the original Thor components, even the hard-wired ones, are now modular sub-devices. Everything from the oscillators to the envelopes is treated the same way. Need more envelopes? Add them. Want six oscillators but only one filter? Everything fits in the same slots.

No hard-wired routing
There is still a lot of default routing that appears in the expanded mod matrix, but it can all be changed. There's also auto-routing. Init patch gives you some basics (analog osc, ladder filter, envelopes, mixer), but if you create an additional oscillator, it'll be routed to the mixer, which is auto-routed to the filter. This gives you the convenience of hard-wiring with the flexibility of true modular.

REs can include Thor modules
Inspired by iOS and Android widgets that automatically install when they are included with an app. REs built with the new Thor SDK can include a sound generator, effect, or a CV device that appears in Thor's menu when the RE is installed.

Image
Welcome to TEST FIXTURE

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1298
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 08 Mar 2018

I think that the lack of cv on grain and Europa has something to do with R10 being realeased earlier than expected. I don’t think they will abandon one of their most unique features that would really upset a lot of users. But I fully agree that they should release a Thor like SDK where people like blamsoft panda etc could add oscillators and filters env followers and other creative utilities! I would go broke so fast. Especially since we have Thor which is literally begging for additional content! Lol ever since iv seen Thor I always wondered why they never added to it to keep it fresh, not saying iv run the well dry, but the idea would easily be a hit considering a lot of Reason users do know about modular fiddling.
My dream Thor
Expanse oscilator
Grain oscilator
Quad oscilator
Etch red or primal audio filter
A graphic envelope
And a Lectric Panda LFO
Please props do :) I’m excited just by this concept, just imagine the possibilities i think it would be cooler than max for live and vcv, blamsoft surely would come on board as they have been doing a decent amount of vcv stuff, still hoping blamsoft makes a polymod expanse oscilator(so we can save on Rack room and cpu)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

Post 09 Mar 2018

But I fully agree that they should release a Thor like SDK where people like blamsoft panda etc could add oscillators and filters env followers and other creative utilities!
I feel the same with so much about Reason - if they would just fully embrace the modular aspect it would be so great. There are so many effects, oscillators etc that they could expose as separate devices but they just don't. I think it's because they are not particularly interested in that aspect of Reason anymore. Players is a perfect example of something potentially really interesting that they just haven't taken further. RE devs like Lectric Panda and Robotic Bean have done a great job of extending the possibilities, but it still feels like the modular / CV based workflow isn't really important to Propellerhead.

User avatar
Oquasec
Posts: 2412
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 09 Mar 2018

Ableton should stay like it is and reason definitely shouldn't change the way that system looks unless they wanna do more 3d designs.
That's the whole point of that daw.
Producer/Sound Designer.
Since Reason loses it's sequencer I don't see the point in skipping.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 4 guests