Propellerheads might be waking up finally. Not that it means anything yet.

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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

I get Prop spam all the time, however this is the first time I saw this headline right at the top:

"Since Reason was first released, it has matured from a focused electronic music production tool to a fully equipped virtual studio with everything you need to create full-blown productions"

So they hear us, but seem to prefer to attempt fooling us instead of getting up on the DAW stuff. While Reason has matured, it took an unbelievable amount of hammering and patience from its base imploring props to add audio, add vst, and get crumbs of core-backend tech to make it capable but feature-lacking in the DAW department -- while we still have a solid "vst instrument" its an underwhelming DAW.

I sincerely hope this is a sign that props realizes the direction they need to go, yet I can't help shaking the feeling the next "updates" will continue the trend of Props not listening but just offering lip service or shifting to mobile or whatever else we don't really need or want.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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Aosta
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26 Feb 2018

Never used a VST in Reason, don't intend to. I really do not understand why people went on and on about VSTs for years, I don't see the point of turning Reason into just another version of all the other DAWs out there when REs were a great alternative.
Now looking in the VST forum it is mostly people having issues with VSTs in Reason just like they have in all the other DAWs that support them, something that props tried to avoid with it's closed environment.
Personally I think they had the right idea.
Tend the flame

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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

Aosta wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Never used a VST in Reason, don't intend to. I really do not understand why people went on and on about VSTs for years, I don't see the point of turning Reason into just another version of all the other DAWs out there when REs were a great alternative.
Now looking in the VST forum it is mostly people having issues with VSTs in Reason just like they have in all the other DAWs that support them, something that props tried to avoid with it's closed environment.
Personally I think they had the right idea.
I agree actually, I midiloopedback my vsts then, and still do now. I only ever wanted to see the core DAW stuff fully realized instead of just plowing on instruments in a half-baked DAW. They have the platform that allows devs to create the devices, props should be working on that platform.

However its completely understandable why most users wanted VST - most think "midiloopback" is complicated or simply don't want to -- I can't understand how anyone wouldn't see the reason people went on about native VST. It was the right move if Propellerhead cared at all about the "DAW" aspect for most users, which frankly Props never were about despite much of their base wanting it as such. Adding VST barely affected me at all, I'd still prefer core DAW improvements over anything else. However for others, VST addition certainly does help most of them.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

antic604

26 Feb 2018

Aosta wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Never used a VST in Reason, don't intend to. I really do not understand why people went on and on about VSTs for years, I don't see the point of turning Reason into just another version of all the other DAWs out there when REs were a great alternative.
Now looking in the VST forum it is mostly people having issues with VSTs in Reason just like they have in all the other DAWs that support them, something that props tried to avoid with it's closed environment.
Personally I think they had the right idea.
Agree. I actually removed links to my VST folders in Settings and ...I feel free :) Hope more devices get added in 11 and 12 and devs keep on working on REs :)

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normen
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26 Feb 2018

Yeah, it also takes my cat SO MUCH of rubbing against my legs and patience to finally make me listen and do his food.

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bxbrkrz
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26 Feb 2018

I love everything added to Reason. The players. I hope they'll develop more of them. I hope to have a sysex player, something based on ctrlr.org for example.
I have access to multiple Daws at the same time. I tried to capture an idea in Reaper vs Reason. Reaper was cool for midi out my sound modules and get the waves in Reason. I found it was very challenging to be creative in Reaper. Too many steps. Of course I welcomed midi out in Reason.
Getting old eyes. Why the small, small, small interface when everything is going 4K? I don't get it. I could do any midi edits on my ST and Cubase 20 years ago, but can't in Reason in 2018. Why?
But in a way that is why modular systems are so popular now. You do your own thing, at your own internal organic clock. It is a meditation. To be fair some modules are cheaper than some VSTs. From Reason the only logical step for me is hardware, not another software controlled with a mouse. You don't need to have the pressure of people telling you why it is wrong for you not to act like a Borg. The pressure of becoming a Borg is overwhelming for the Props and their investors. I just hope all DAWS will not end up looking like a cubletonologic creature.

I love Reason because it is not the same as everything else, and that's wonderful for Reason to evolve at its own pace.
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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

No one wants reason to change its outfit. We love it for what it is, however its far from what it should be.

And yes antic604, Props totally should keep making default REs as their "biggest upgrades ever", not only because everyone prefers to pay for instruments chosen for them, but Props gets to compete directly with their own RE devs. And those who don't agree, don't buy it! Everyone loses together, it makes perfect sense!
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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aeox
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26 Feb 2018

normen wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Yeah, it also takes my cat SO MUCH of rubbing against my legs and patience to finally make me listen and do his food.
:lol:

antic604

26 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
And yes antic604, Props totally should keep making default REs as their "biggest upgrades ever", not only because everyone prefers to pay for instruments chosen for them, but Props gets to compete directly with their own RE devs. And those who don't agree, don't buy it! Everyone loses together, it makes perfect sense!
If you'd read any of my feature request replies you'll know I share your "Reason needs to DAW" very much.

However, that does not mean it can't add more things that make it unique: more instruments, effects and improved SDK for REs. Every modern DAW these days with a big version adds new devices + workflow improvements / functionalities, so I find your sarcasm misplaced :)

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NekujaK
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26 Feb 2018

IMHO Reason's best feature is, and has always been, creative workflow. This is the one elusive element that sets Reason apart from all other DAWs. As long as the Props don't compromise this, Reason will always be able to differentiate itself from other DAWs, regardless of specific features.

I just want Reason to be the "perfect" music production environment. It still has a long way to go, but the Props made a giant step in the right direction when they added VST support. Sometimes the best tool for the job is an RE, sometimes it's a VST, and sometimes it's neither. There are amazing VSTs out there that enable me to do things that are either difficult or impossible with the current RE offerings. I just want the best tool for whatever music production task is at hand - if that happens to be an RE, a VST, or a native Reason feature is completely irrelevant. The creative process and final result are the only important things.

Go Reason, Go!
wreaking havoc with :reason: since 2.5
:arrow: https://soundcloud.com/nekujak-donnay/sets

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26 Feb 2018

Which part of that makes you think they hear us? Just sounds like yet more marketing bullshit to me. I can't work out if they actually believe their own bullshit or if it is completely cynical head-in-the-sand hype.

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bxbrkrz
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26 Feb 2018

Lost in translation. We all love Reason, but have different priorities to what should be the next big update. Although not a big VST user/buyer, it is cool to have my old NI Komplete collection in Reason, and the free, very good quality VSTs on the net. Big plus.

When Google started to make their phones, when Microsoft started to make their own Win 10 hardware people were saying it was unfair to the competition. They should not do it. If Props make good REs I will buy them. If a RE is free but I was never a fan of it in the past I will not use it in my production in the future. Nothing has changed. The notion to have something for free, something I never cared for in the past, keeps me from buying something else I want in the future, is strange to me.

My dream: I want to believe a hardware Reason controller could be real one day. This a problem with all powerful DAWS. Using one interface mouse+click feels like mixing on a big infinite channel mixer with chopsticks, with the other hand behind my back. More stuff with more shortcuts to remember will hit a UI brick wall. Hard.
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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

antic604 wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
And yes antic604, Props totally should keep making default REs as their "biggest upgrades ever", not only because everyone prefers to pay for instruments chosen for them, but Props gets to compete directly with their own RE devs. And those who don't agree, don't buy it! Everyone loses together, it makes perfect sense!
If you'd read any of my feature request replies you'll know I share your "Reason needs to DAW" very much.

However, that does not mean it can't add more things that make it unique: more instruments, effects and improved SDK for REs. Every modern DAW these days with a big version adds new devices + workflow improvements / functionalities, so I find your sarcasm misplaced :)
It came off stronger than intended and unfortunately you provided the perfect quote for that mindset some people have ;) . However it does illustrate perfectly why Propellerheads consistent "upgrade" strategy of more devices while largely ignoring the DAW itself backfires on them, REdevs, and many of their users.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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Noplan
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26 Feb 2018

I can not understand the constant desire for new features. You do not need most of it to make or mix music anyway. In the meantime, the status of all virtual studios has progressed so far that the developers are now considering almost unnecessary things to justify the price of an update. This is then presented in a nice video and everyone thinks that he has always needed it. And if another DAW brings out a new feature, then you're jealous and ask for it as well for your DAW. Why?

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QVprod
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26 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
However it does illustrate perfectly why Propellerheads consistent "upgrade" strategy of more devices while largely ignoring the DAW itself backfires on them, REdevs, and many of their users.
I wonder about this idea. I get that Reason has many DAW features to be desired, but Reason 10 is the first upgrade since Reason 5 to be purely content related. Quite literally every upgrade from Reason 6-9 contained primarily DAW features. Sometimes the devices were the DAW features themselves...i.e... EMI = midi out, Players = Midi fx. I don't see how that equals a consistent upgrade strategy that ignores the DAW itself. In fact to me it would seem to be the opposite. Prior to 9.5, one of the biggest complaints here was the lack of updated core content.

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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

QVprod wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
However it does illustrate perfectly why Propellerheads consistent "upgrade" strategy of more devices while largely ignoring the DAW itself backfires on them, REdevs, and many of their users.
I wonder about this idea. I get that Reason has many DAW features to be desired, but Reason 10 is the first upgrade since Reason 5 to be purely content related. Quite literally every upgrade from Reason 6-9 contained primarily DAW features. Sometimes the devices were the DAW features themselves...i.e... EMI = midi out, Players = Midi fx. I don't see how that equals a consistent upgrade strategy that ignores the DAW itself. In fact to me it would seem to be the opposite. Prior to 9.5, one of the biggest complaints here was the lack of updated core content.
Reason 1-6 was pure synth, didn't even have audio in, so that's 6 iterations where they simply wanted to be a rewired synth. And it was about the most incredible synth with all kinds of hardware nostalgia and cabled devices, but not a DAW.

Once 6 hit , audio in, that's when the "DAW" began, and props added instruments and effects, but that was it.

6-7 added basic midi editing, nothing special -- quantize, slicing, basic standard stuff with barebones workflow. RE was their main thing, and I figured that was the time they'd get away from making devices and let RE devs take over - and they both would rake in our money. Props would fully capitalize on the DAW aspect (which at this point, was minimal basic at best), REdevs would craft the devices, we'd go broke buying everything making REdevs and Props rich beyond their hopes.

Then came along R8, what a bust I totally skipped it. An improved browser interface that till this day I try to never use its a hindrance to my workflow not a help (I realize this is subjective). Lots of REs again, no DAW enhancements I can recall.

R9, first decent update since v6, I upgraded to support props I felt they finally were figuring out their DAW was lacking. I needed almost none of the offerings - didn't need new sounds, players devices, etc, not even VST when they added it in, but I felt they were on the right track after the embarrassment of 8. I did like the pitch editor though. But lets not go too crazy, R9s DAW enhancements were mostly minor stuff, and should have been done with patches after v7, not waiting until 9.

Then 10 came along with no useful DAW enhancements, just a "biggest upgrade ever" tag, some crippled 3rd party packs sharing the same interface but bloated as 3 different devices, and not even their Europa and Grain could get the bad taste out of my mouth. And I *really* loved Grain, just didn't feel like Propellerhead deserved my money with how they presented it, nor what it actually offered. And I think a lot of people feel the same way, so I'm doing what I can to help even if it hurts a bit.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

kitekrazy
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26 Feb 2018

I'd still like to move folders without experimenting with mk link to only have the executable on my OS drive. Midi tracks w/o ID8 open up by default. Remember when you could audition those synth patches in the browser. I still like to use it as a proprietary DAW.

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MannequinRaces
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26 Feb 2018

Yawn. You’re putting way too much thought trying to read between the lines of a marketing email.

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Psuper
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26 Feb 2018

MannequinRaces wrote:
26 Feb 2018
Yawn. You’re putting way too much thought trying to read between the lines of a marketing email.
Am I? My original post was pretty clear it was likely smoke with a hint of hope on my end. Surprised you got through the couple short paragraphs I wrote, you sound tired.

I did, however, put some thought into my reply to QVp. What propellerhead has done with their upgrades is a common topic that I've been wanting to address, so I did.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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QVprod
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27 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
6-7 added basic midi editing, nothing special -- quantize, slicing, basic standard stuff with barebones workflow. RE was their main thing, and I figured that was the time they'd get away from making devices and let RE devs take over - and they both would rake in our money. Props would fully capitalize on the DAW aspect (which at this point, was minimal basic at best), REdevs would craft the devices, we'd go broke buying everything making REdevs and Props rich beyond their hopes.

Then came along R8, what a bust I totally skipped it. An improved browser interface that till this day I try to never use its a hindrance to my workflow not a help (I realize this is subjective). Lots of REs again, no DAW enhancements I can recall.

R9, first decent update since v6, I upgraded to support props I felt they finally were figuring out their DAW was lacking. I needed almost none of the offerings - didn't need new sounds, players devices, etc, not even VST when they added it in, but I felt they were on the right track after the embarrassment of 8. I did like the pitch editor though. But lets not go too crazy, R9s DAW enhancements were mostly minor stuff, and should have been done with patches after v7, not waiting until 9.
But that doesn't change the fact that the upgrades were indeed DAW focused. There hasn't been enough sdk development to say that RE was the focus. Even if those particular DAW features didn't appeal to you specifically, they were still DAW features. I'm not saying Props can't and shouldn't do more, but rather the thought that they have a pattern of device focused upgrades (not counting DAW devices like the EMI and Players) just doesn't line up for me. Now granted I got to experience the upgrade from Studio One 2 to 3, so I'm aware of how great and exciting a DAW upgrade can be and can agree that we haven't had any Reason upgrades that match that.

antic604

27 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
26 Feb 2018
antic604 wrote:
26 Feb 2018


If you'd read any of my feature request replies you'll know I share your "Reason needs to DAW" very much.

However, that does not mean it can't add more things that make it unique: more instruments, effects and improved SDK for REs. Every modern DAW these days with a big version adds new devices + workflow improvements / functionalities, so I find your sarcasm misplaced :)
It came off stronger than intended and unfortunately you provided the perfect quote for that mindset some people have ;) . However it does illustrate perfectly why Propellerheads consistent "upgrade" strategy of more devices while largely ignoring the DAW itself backfires on them, REdevs, and many of their users.
I don't think these two are mutually exclusive to each other, like you're trying to "paint" them:
- adding new native devices & developing the SDK for REs, AND
- improving the DAW side, ie. support for 4K, MPE, VST3, proper VST sidechaining, VST performance, advanced MIDI editing, multi-clip editing, track folders, user-defined keyboard shortcuts, curved automations, manual entry for parameters, make Combinator much more flexible, etc.

If Props stop doing the former, then I might as well go back to Bitwig and/or Live, because all the "fancy" routing things I can do in Reason I can do in either of them much quicker, it's just not as fun and satisfying as cabling "real" devices and then scrolling through the huge, "real" mixing desk to tweak the mix. A lot of people talk about "Reason workflow" as something that is boosting the creativity, but at certain point in the project it gets more in the way than it's helping - I never know whether moving the devices' order will cable properly, or if given effect is actually affecting the instrument it's placed next to, or I'm getting lost in all the spider audio/cv web, or I'm spending *literal* minutes trying to align some parameters on two channel strips in exactly the same way moving the mouse up & down by fractions of milimeter and not being able to get there...

What I'm trying to say is that I want Props to continue making Reason unique & different, but they need to be very careful about the balance, especially since Reason adopted VSTs and many people started looking its way (again) with interest - those people cannot be shoehorned into the fixed "hardware studio" paradigm because they've been using other *normal* DAWs all those years. On the other hand the "hardware studio" IS what Reason is about and what makes it special, because if I'm just looking for a perfect host for VSTs, audio & MIDI editing I might as well buy Reaper and Cubase and be done with it.

Frankly, I don't envy the Props here - it's a really difficult situation to maintain their uniqueness, while being able to expand the user base.

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Psuper
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27 Feb 2018

But that doesn't change the fact that the upgrades were indeed DAW focused. There hasn't been enough sdk development to say that RE was the focus. Even if those particular DAW features didn't appeal to you specifically, they were still DAW features.
QVp, I specifically stated 9 was the first worthy 'DAW feature' update despite me not needing the features since I felt Props finally were putting in what they should be, so you're correct but I made that point clear.

However the overall updates from 6-9 weren't DAW "focused", they were DAW "basics" underneath the slew of heavy development of devices:
Polar, Pulsar, Radical Piano, Audiomatic, Parsec, PX7Radical Keys, Rotor, Synchronous, A-List Acoustic Guitarist, A-List Classic Drummer, A-List Power Drummer, A-List Studio Drummer , Pop Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Power Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Fingerpicking Nylon, Fingerpicking Nylon.

So massive amount of development for devices, minimal DAW stuff for updates except R9. I'm not even putting 10 on the list, but we know what that is too.
I don't think these two are mutually exclusive to each other, like you're trying to "paint" them:
- adding new native devices & developing the SDK for REs, AND
- improving the DAW side, ie. support for 4K, MPE, VST3, proper VST sidechaining, VST performance, advanced MIDI editing, multi-clip editing, track folders, user-defined keyboard shortcuts, curved automations, manual entry for parameters, make Combinator much more flexible, etc.
Development of the SDK for REs goes in the other side - its backend stuff, allowing REdevs to do more which in turn allows us to do/have/adjust more:

- adding new native devices
- developing the SDK for REs, improving the DAW side, ie. support for 4K, MPE, VST3, proper VST sidechaining, VST performance, advanced MIDI editing, multi-clip editing, track folders, user-defined keyboard shortcuts, curved automations, manual entry for parameters, make Combinator much more flexible, etc.

Whether or not they are mutually exclusive is up to Propellerhead. Can props make native devices and get some serious work done on the backend side? Their history of updates is telling us absolutely not - they're great about making devices, but DAW tech is minimal at best. I do however feel they can balance it more, I'm ever hopeful.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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QVprod
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27 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
27 Feb 2018
However the overall updates from 6-9 weren't DAW "focused", they were DAW "basics" underneath the slew of heavy development of devices:
Polar, Pulsar, Radical Piano, Audiomatic, Parsec, PX7Radical Keys, Rotor, Synchronous, A-List Acoustic Guitarist, A-List Classic Drummer, A-List Power Drummer, A-List Studio Drummer , Pop Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Power Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Fingerpicking Nylon, Fingerpicking Nylon.

So massive amount of development for devices, minimal DAW stuff for updates except R9. I'm not even putting 10 on the list, but we know what that is too.
We seem to have a different definition of "DAW focused". By that I mean improvements were specifically related to the DAW functions themselves regardless of how basic they might be. As far as REs eliminate all off the A list RE as those are basically UJam devices. That leaves Polar, Pulsar, Radical Piano, Audiomatic, Parsec, PX7, Radical Keys, Rotor, and Synchronous. Looking at that I have a better understanding of what you mean by device focused though being they worked a relatively rapid speed (for them) given the amount of REs they released over 6-7 years.

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Psuper
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27 Feb 2018

QVprod wrote:
27 Feb 2018
Psuper wrote:
27 Feb 2018
However the overall updates from 6-9 weren't DAW "focused", they were DAW "basics" underneath the slew of heavy development of devices:
Polar, Pulsar, Radical Piano, Audiomatic, Parsec, PX7Radical Keys, Rotor, Synchronous, A-List Acoustic Guitarist, A-List Classic Drummer, A-List Power Drummer, A-List Studio Drummer , Pop Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Power Chords A-List Electric Guitarist, Fingerpicking Nylon, Fingerpicking Nylon.

So massive amount of development for devices, minimal DAW stuff for updates except R9. I'm not even putting 10 on the list, but we know what that is too.
We seem to have a different definition of "DAW focused". By that I mean improvements were specifically related to the DAW functions themselves regardless of how basic they might be. As far as REs eliminate all off the A list RE as those are basically UJam devices. That leaves Polar, Pulsar, Radical Piano, Audiomatic, Parsec, PX7, Radical Keys, Rotor, and Synchronous. Looking at that I have a better understanding of what you mean by device focused though being they worked a relatively rapid speed (for them) given the amount of REs they released over 6-7 years.
Ahh ok that makes sense, both about the 'focused' wordplay and the a-list stuff.

And don't get me wrong, I LOVE Parsec (but just for the vocoder). However I'd gladly trade every device they made after R6 if we got even marginal improvements across the board with the DAW, and would happily pay each upgrade....

...We'd likely be swimming in 10x the amount of REs by now doing 10x the kind of stuff they are capable of at the moment, the streamlined workflow, performance, and add-in options would be the envy of every other DAW, VSTs would be a bad word to Reasontalkers, new REdevs would be clamoring to get on board, Users would be giddy, oh the glory I saw... and I'm convinced it would have happened. I'm still convinced its possible - despite any bad blood from forum destruction to Dev-toe-stepping, at the end of the day Reason is still one of the most unique and satisfying apps to play with.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

Goodbye
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27 Feb 2018

...We'd likely be swimming in 10x the amount of REs by now doing 10x the kind of stuff they are capable of at the moment,
This is so true. Rather than concentrate on building the foundation of a healthy ecosystem, they have tried to cash in on a half-assed one and actually all but killed the ecosystem in the process.

How many active RE developers are left? A handful. This is Propellerhead's doing.

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