Propellerheads might be waking up finally. Not that it means anything yet.

[Psuper]

Psuper, can we please stop pretending you don't know what I'm talking about?

It's not about the word being used, it's about the intentions

My intentions, words, and meanings are crystal clear -- I feel props, their users, and their RE devs are better served with a shift on their updating strategy.

I'm not sure how I can say this consistently, even with my revised signature stating the same, and you guys fail to comprehend (or intentionally obscure) my crystal clear on-point stance.

People don't need Europa/Grain - I do. As soon as I got exposed to their powers, I really do. Sure, I can stack a gazillion subtractors to get a similar (but not comparable) result, or I can just add a Grain or Europa. You're not an authority on this matter, stop pretending you're talking on "people's" behalf and just spin it like it really is, then the "people" can stop search your threads for words like "people" and "users" and replace them with "me".

Where is this coming from, seriously you guys need to read in context and quit cherry picking then going on a tirade of false accusations. I said they should be a choice instead of hand-fed upgrades as we all have different needs.

Prior quote to this same accusation:
"Enoch, I was disputing Edgrips' goofy notion that Reason had to have cutting-edge hand-fed devices for the sake of staying current and relevant to appeal to new users -- which is an absolutely absurd notion."

Which simply means "Relevant" or "Current" can be done if you really wanted to (using the subtractor simply as an example), its subjective, multiple styles for multiple needs - nothing more to read into it. Find that quote and read it in context.

However, maybe this piano guy needs a better piano instead of a grain engine. Maybe that orchestral guy wants and updated Orkester instead of Europa. Or maybe that synth guy wants Europa? Shouldn't those all be choices? Isn' that what the Rack Extension tech is for? By forcing a particular instrument as the upgrade, you exclude a large portion of potential buyers.

I'm not saying you're doing something wrong here, but it seems that there's no "heated" debate without Psuper present being overly negative. I'd like to see that change, so people like me can chime in without being accused of being on someone's payroll and make these discussions pleasant to read for other users than you.

Negative? Not at all. I'm never negative about Reason nor its users, overwhelmingly state I love Reason and am passionate about it. However I also have no fears to state what is clearly a disconnect between Propellerhead and their users, nor have any fears stating any shortcomings. If someone feels Propellerheads is awesome about listening and participating with the community, awesome about timely adding of features, awesome about past decisions like their wealth of knowledge forum being shut down, etc, great! I find its best for us all to state how we feel, so the end results in a great product continuing to exist and thrive.

You confuse passionate criticism and creative suggestions with negativity. And you certainly confuse me with someone thinking you're on a payroll -- I never said nor implied anything of the sort.

And let me think about the article thing, it may be worth doing so we can clear things up and get some creative conversation going. But quite honestly, that link in my signature, the tldr of any potential article.

[esselfortium]

However, maybe this piano guy needs a better piano instead of a grain engine. Maybe that orchestral guy wants and updated Orkester instead of Europa. Or maybe that synth guy wants Europa? Shouldn't those all be choices? By forcing a particular instrument as the upgrade, you exclude a large portion of potential buyers.

You already have choices, there's no need to fracture Reason updates for that. You can just buy any of the great orchestral libraries out there instead of the Reason upgrade you don't want, and come back for Reason 11 or 12 and get Europa and Grain included for free as part of the deal. There is honestly no downside to this as a user. Selling everything as an add-on like you've suggested not only makes the base product increasingly less and less appealing to new customers, but also costs you more to get it all.

This horse has been well and truly beaten into the ground by now.

[Psuper]

However, maybe this piano guy needs a better piano instead of a grain engine. Maybe that orchestral guy wants and updated Orkester instead of Europa. Or maybe that synth guy wants Europa? Shouldn't those all be choices? Isn' that what the Rack Extension tech is for? By forcing a particular instrument as the upgrade, you exclude a large portion of potential buyers.

You already have choices, there's no need to fracture Reason updates for that. You can just buy the orchestral library instead of the upgrade you don't want, and come back for Reason 11 or 12 and get Europa and Grain included for free as part of the deal. There is honestly no downside to this as a user. Selling everything as an add-on like you've suggested not only makes the base product increasingly less and less appealing to new customers, but also costs you more to get it all.

Let me illustrate a bit differently.

(revised by Psuper to illustrate whats really going on)

I already have choices, there's no need to fracture Reason updates for you. You can just buy the orchestral library instead of the upgrade you don't want, and come back for Reason 11 or 12 and get Europa and Grain included for free as part of the deal regardless if you need them or not. There is honestly no downside to this for me. Selling everything as an add-on like you've suggested not only makes the base product increasingly less and less appealing to me, but also costs me more to get it all.

See that revised quote of your statement. Thats exactly what its saying

With included instruments, fracturing, some win, some lose.
With included DAW improvements, we all win.
Mutually exclusive? Up to props.
- I'm not in the "for me" room, I'm in the "for everyone" group.

[Creativemind]

Never used a VST in Reason, don't intend to. I really do not understand why people went on and on about VSTs for years, I don't see the point of turning Reason into just another version of all the other DAWs out there when REs were a great alternative.
Now looking in the VST forum it is mostly people having issues with VSTs in Reason just like they have in all the other DAWs that support them, something that props tried to avoid with it's closed environment.
Personally I think they had the right idea.

Agree. I actually removed links to my VST folders in Settings and ...I feel free Hope more devices get added in 11 and 12 and devs keep on working on REs

I don't. Maybe a Combinator 2, Thor 2 or NN-XT 2 but the Props should be working on features features features now.

[Creativemind]

I can not understand the constant desire for new features. You do not need most of it to make or mix music anyway. In the meantime, the status of all virtual studios has progressed so far that the developers are now considering almost unnecessary things to justify the price of an update. This is then presented in a nice video and everyone thinks that he has always needed it. And if another DAW brings out a new feature, then you're jealous and ask for it as well for your DAW. Why?

Because it's a cool time saving feature perhaps? Also if you don't want more features then cool, you're done aren't you? You don't need to upgrade ever again!

[-008']

wew laddies.. Far too much focus on the brush and not the painting! Isn't it amazing what michaelangelo could do with a chisel? or the beatles with a 4 track? And now we have 9865 x more power and features today and stlll nobody really does SHIT with them. Maybe they should start removing features and we'd hear some blood sweat and tears out of music again.

I started on a 4 track tape machine, the notion that ANY daw today is "missing features" makes me absolutely LOL.

There are too many people with too many opinions and preferences. The props are damned if they do and damned if they don't, literally.

Last year: "what no new devices!!!!?!?!?

This year: "bah, who needs new devices!?!?!

Props might be finally waking up but today's DAW complaints lull me right to sleep.

Just my 2 satoshi. I wish you all peace and good music. Hope you find what you need.

[Oquasec]

Very few daws on the market are half as fun as reason or live.
Seriously, what the hell was protools supposed to be for edm lol

[KEVMOVE02]

I don't know if there will ever be a time where individuals will spare themselves from being hoisted on their own petard, especially when it means that they fell short of communicating a thought that receives widespread acceptance and approval. Oh wait, that's the notes from debate club. Okay, right stack now. The blessing and curse of open forums is everyone has a say, everyone can critique another's viewpoint and most users who have no interest in the forums will come to read the articles, leaving minimal evidence of their presence. For the record, I'm big proponent of using the best tool available, whatever that is.

[4filegate]

Maybe they should start removing features and we'd hear some blood sweat and tears out of music again.

Digital Multitrack Audio Recording, Editing, Mixing and Mastering - SADiE is still available today, which can be used as described by you.

SADiE has never incorporated much in the way of MIDI facilities, aside from some basic remote control and automation functionality. It's not a MIDI music production tool in the style of Logic or Nuendo/Cubase. Instead, its strengths lie in complex and accurate audio editing, CD creation and totally reliable multitrack recording. SADiE has always been about capitalising on those strengths, rather than trying to be all things to everyone.

Used by mastering and broadcast studio work with broadcasters and production companies around the world.

[Adabler]

I started on a 4 track tape machine, the notion that ANY daw today is "missing features" makes me absolutely LOL.

I agree. If 14 year old me knew what we can do in R10 now, his head would probably explode.

That said though, it only applies to old farts like you and me. If you are born in 2000 and are just getting into music production, being told that things were a lot more limited and/or complicated years before you were even born, doesn't help much when chosing your DAW.

Being a fancy, convenient and good looking DAW is the norm now, and for new users, Reason will be compared to competing DAWs, not how things were back in the day.

To release R10 with "moar" stuff was a smart move, I think. I remember well how I thought my stuff got very "same-y" when I only had stock stuff, no REs or money to buy refills. At the time, I did not venture much into cabling and such, and after a while I kind of stopped making music for some time.

What I am trying to say is that a lot of users will be beginners, and for them immediate solutions are more important than endless possibilities with a hefty learning curve.

I think the DAW-features update will come again soon, but getting their hooks into new users should always be a priority. Long time users have spent a lot on REs, refills and updates. Making the vanilla experience a little closer to that, seems wise to me.

If reason 11 is not all about the DAW stuff, though... back to Tascam, I guess..

[antic604]

What I am trying to say is that a lot of users will be beginners, and for them immediate solutions are more important than endless possibilities with a hefty learning curve.

I think the DAW-features update will come again soon, but getting their hooks into new users should always be a priority. Long time users have spent a lot on REs, refills and updates. Making the vanilla experience a little closer to that, seems wise to me.

Very well said!

[Blast]

I can not understand the constant desire for new features. You do not need most of it to make or mix music anyway. In the meantime, the status of all virtual studios has progressed so far that the developers are now considering almost unnecessary things to justify the price of an update. This is then presented in a nice video and everyone thinks that he has always needed it. And if another DAW brings out a new feature, then you're jealous and ask for it as well for your DAW. Why?

Then what do you want them to add???????
Does a new car need more features to make them drivable each year?

[kinkujin]

Greetings,
I have just joined this forum (thank you for this place!) having just purchased Reason 3.0, yes that's right, online. Have always wanted to try Reason since my giving up on Sonic Syndicate's Orion. Loved that program and found myself way more productive in that environment than any other program (and I've used plenty).

So I find this discussion about synths vs DAW etc. very relevant to me. Orion had fabulous VST and VSTi integration and I ended up buying and adding and trying out soooooo many effects and synths that it actually hindered my production. Gee whiz vs output. It wasn't until I actually deleted a lot of free synths and effects and forced myself to use the actual Orion 'generators' (I believe they were called) that I started getting productive and appreciated what I had at my disposal. I miss Orion.

I plan to take the conservative approach to my explorations with Reason. One day I may get current, but that will have to wait until I 1) have sufficiently gelled with Reason and 2) until the computer is upgraded. I'm relatively certain that Reason will work for me and am very excited to get going.

Honestly, I sometimes take a step back (yup I did work on cassette multi trackers too) and pinch myself at what is available to us recordists now. Upgrade, stand still -- just create. It's all good.

-kinkujin

[EnochLight]

Greetings,
I have just joined this forum (thank you for this place!) having just purchased Reason 3.0, yes that's right, online. Have always wanted to try Reason since my giving up on Sonic Syndicate's Orion. Loved that program and found myself way more productive in that environment than any other program (and I've used plenty).

So I find this discussion about synths vs DAW etc. very relevant to me. Orion had fabulous VST and VSTi integration and I ended up buying and adding and trying out soooooo many effects and synths that it actually hindered my production. Gee whiz vs output. It wasn't until I actually deleted a lot of free synths and effects and forced myself to use the actual Orion 'generators' (I believe they were called) that I started getting productive and appreciated what I had at my disposal. I miss Orion.

I plan to take the conservative approach to my explorations with Reason. One day I may get current, but that will have to wait until I 1) have sufficiently gelled with Reason and 2) until the computer is upgraded. I'm relatively certain that Reason will work for me and am very excited to get going.

Honestly, I sometimes take a step back (yup I did work on cassette multi trackers too) and pinch myself at what is available to us recordists now. Upgrade, stand still -- just create. It's all good.

-kinkujin

Well, it must be acknowledged - kudos to you for recently buying software that's 13 years old and no longer supported. That said, if you're running it on a recent computer, it must fly.

Were you able to buy a 3.0 license that was transferred to your Propellerhead account? If so, it'll make you eligible to upgrade to Reason 10 for just $129 USD.

Anyway, welcome to the forums! There's not many 3.0 users still around these parts, but we may be able to give you advice on some things that still pertain to it.

[kinkujin]

Hi EnochLight,
Thanks for the welcome. The 3.0 version was in the box and shrink wrapped. The seller opened up the software just to see what it was. I contacted Props support and they informed me of the upgrade but also advised me that Reasom 10 wouldn't work with my current Mac. If I find that I love Reason, I'll purchase the upgrade (boxed) and just hold it until I do finally upgrade the computer - likely 1-2 years (my eldest starts college next year so money will be going there instead of in my pursuits).

I'm no stranger to old software and computers. My approach is to rarely buy anything new or bleeding edge, I found that I ended up chasing hardware and software too much and never got down to work. There are downsides of course, but if I do find that Reason is for me, I'll get current and not look back. Hopefully this approach will serve me well with Reason.

In the meantime, back to the discussion ...

-kinkujin

[esselfortium]

If I find that I love Reason, I'll purchase the upgrade (boxed) and just hold it until I do finally upgrade the computer - likely 1-2 years (my eldest starts college next year so money will be going there instead of in my pursuits).

If you decide to upgrade, I would recommend waiting until you're able to run it, since it'll most likely still be $129 to get to the latest from where you are

[TritoneAddiction]

Far too much focus on the brush and not the painting!

I started on a 4 track tape machine, the notion that ANY daw today is "missing features" makes me absolutely LOL.

I tend to agree. I mean there's nothing wrong with wanting a DAW or any tool to improve. Why not make something better if you can? But how much stuff and new functions does one really need to create awesome music? Surpisingly little I would say.
if anything I seem to work better when working with limitations.

Besides I think the Props have listened to requests, not every request of course, but pretty much everything they've implemented I've seen as requests from users at some point.

[kinkujin]

If you decide to upgrade, I would recommend waiting until you're able to run it, since it'll most likely still be $129 to get to the latest from where you are

Ah, great. Thanks Sarah. I had thought it might be safer to get it soon, but no sense in spending dough if they'll still allow the upgrade at that price.

-kinkujin

[EnochLight]

Ah, great. Thanks Sarah. I had thought it might be safer to get it soon, but no sense in spending dough if they'll still allow the upgrade at that price.

-kinkujin

Definitely wait. The upgrade price hasn't changed in 15 years, and it will likely be the same cost whether you're upgrading from 3.0 or from 10.0. If you upgraded now and sat on the box, you'd be wasting money.

[Gorgon]

Phasys, seriously - put your guns away. erfectly acceptable. Resorting to name calling is not. But you already know this, so...

[plaamook]

Phasys, seriously...

I've not been here so much lately but can someone explain this statement?
Gorgon...Phasys...?

[strangers]

...I mean there's nothing wrong with wanting a DAW or any tool to improve. Why not make something better if you can? But how much stuff and new functions does one really need to create awesome music?...

I'm piggy-backing on an excellent point here. Clearly nearly everyone can constructively debate features, improvements, tools, etc. for hours on end. It'd be amazing to see that very same fire directed toward making music. There's always room for improvements but why let that hold you back from creating the music we're all here for in the first place?

Maybe one day the music section of this forum will be as active as the general section.

[BRIGGS]

[normen]

I'm piggy-backing on an excellent point here. Clearly nearly everyone can constructively debate features, improvements, tools, etc. for hours on end. It'd be amazing to see that very same fire directed toward making music. There's always room for improvements but why let that hold you back from creating the music we're all here for in the first place?

Maybe one day the music section of this forum will be as active as the general section.

People don't go to forums to make music, if I wanted to make music I wouldn't be on this forum now I think thats especially true for music forums and yet more for this one

[hurricane]

People don't go to forums to make music, if I wanted to make music I wouldn't be on this forum now I think thats especially true for music forums and yet more for this one

Well, speak for yourself.

Check this out - some of us actually make music using THIS program and post it to the music forum, then come on HERE pro-ing and con-ing the F out of it because we're invested in it cuz we actually really do use it to create MUSIC!