Any performance degradation in Reason on pre-Haswell Windows machines with new MS patch?

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EnochLight
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09 Jan 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
09 Jan 2018
Or get yourself an old 486 since it does not support branch prediction :D
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drloop
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10 Jan 2018

I have patched and benchmarked with my own projects.
W10
i5 3570K
Reason 10
Tracktion 8

Also tried on my old laptop with i3 330m, W10 and Reason 10

The results...





Works like a charm, I get no obvious performance hit at all.

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EnochLight
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10 Jan 2018

More information that might put some people at ease:

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2 ... c-slowdown
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Marco Raaphorst
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10 Jan 2018

EnochLight wrote:
10 Jan 2018
More information that might put some people at ease:

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2 ... c-slowdown
"Apple has not responded to queries from The Verge about whether the company has supplied firmware updates for the A-series iPhone chips to protect against Spectre variant 2, or even if it’s required."

Apple not responding... sick!

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EnochLight
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10 Jan 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
10 Jan 2018
"Apple has not responded to queries from The Verge about whether the company has supplied firmware updates for the A-series iPhone chips to protect against Spectre variant 2, or even if it’s required."

Apple not responding... sick!
I was more interested in "It’s bad news for older Windows 7 and Windows 8 machines". Apple not responding is par for the course. :lol:
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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Marco Raaphorst
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10 Jan 2018

EnochLight wrote:
10 Jan 2018
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
10 Jan 2018
"Apple has not responded to queries from The Verge about whether the company has supplied firmware updates for the A-series iPhone chips to protect against Spectre variant 2, or even if it’s required."

Apple not responding... sick!
I was more interested in "It’s bad news for older Windows 7 and Windows 8 machines". Apple not responding is par for the course. :lol:
You're right :D

househoppin09
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10 Jan 2018

drloop wrote:
10 Jan 2018
I have patched and benchmarked with my own projects.
W10
i5 3570K
Reason 10
Tracktion 8

Also tried on my old laptop with i3 330m, W10 and Reason 10

The results...





Works like a charm, I get no obvious performance hit at all.
I knew if this thread went on long enough someone would eventually give some sort of actual answer... :lol:

Seriously, thank you, this really helps a lot. My only other question is, do you have any projects that use significant numbers of VSTs and if so have you checked to see whether performance has been impacted on those songs?

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riemac
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10 Jan 2018

I've got a PC with an i7 4770k and Win 8.1. I've installed the update yesterday.
I was working on a project which was already struggeling befor the update.
Now, after the upgrade it was pushed over the fence and stopps every two or three seconds.
I didn't do proper benchmarking, but I would guess, that the performance loss on my system is around 5%.

househoppin09
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10 Jan 2018

Damn, that's unfortunate, though not surprising, as it's consistent with what was mentioned upthread about Win8.1. Thanks for sharing that info--if anyone else who's on Win7 or Win8.1 has the patch (released yesterday I think?), please do share your experiences. It seems that's where the greatest difficulties will be.

i7-4770k is a Haswell, so it appears that article upthread was correct and it was premature of me to limit my concern to the pre-Haswell chips as stated in the thread topic. :|

RandyEspoda
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10 Jan 2018

househoppin09 wrote:
10 Jan 2018
Damn, that's unfortunate, though not surprising, as it's consistent with what was mentioned upthread about Win8.1. Thanks for sharing that info--if anyone else who's on Win7 or Win8.1 has the patch (released yesterday I think?), please do share your experiences. It seems that's where the greatest difficulties will be.

i7-4770k is a Haswell, so it appears that article upthread was correct and it was premature of me to limit my concern to the pre-Haswell chips as stated in the thread topic. :|
Almost everyone with a pre-haswell chip, especially those with a Clarkdale or even Lynnfield, is reporting 'some' loss of performance with the patch, ranging from 5 to 15% depending on the hardware (it seems the type/brand of audio interface also matters, as are the type(s) of hard drives and such).

I still use a Lynnfield but have no performance loss at all. Though maybe that's because I haven't installed the patch yet :roll:
Until word of an actual malware gets out using the exploits, there is little reason to already be concerned at all.
As of now there still aren't any...
By the time there is I'll def. take my measures, but until then I'll keep enjoying my overclock to the fullest.

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EnochLight
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10 Jan 2018

From the article I linked to above:
Windows 10 machines running older processors like Haswell “show more significant slowdowns, and we expect that some users will notice a decrease in system performance,” says Myerson. The same older Haswell machines running Windows 7 or Windows 8 will also experience slowdowns that Myerson says “most users” will notice.
:(

I'm going to wager that me on my 5+ year old Ivy Bridge CPU on Win10 will be one of "some" users. Double-digit slowdown will kill many of my projects. GRRRRR.... :evil: :twisted: :evil: :evil:
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

drloop
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11 Jan 2018

Older processors and older OS like Windows 7 and 8 will lose performance.
https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... gRu08JQWQ)()

Using Windows 10 might give better performance.

drloop
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11 Jan 2018

househoppin09 wrote:
10 Jan 2018
drloop wrote:
10 Jan 2018
I have patched and benchmarked with my own projects.
W10
i5 3570K
Reason 10
Tracktion 8

Also tried on my old laptop with i3 330m, W10 and Reason 10

The results...





Works like a charm, I get no obvious performance hit at all.
I knew if this thread went on long enough someone would eventually give some sort of actual answer... :lol:

Seriously, thank you, this really helps a lot. My only other question is, do you have any projects that use significant numbers of VSTs and if so have you checked to see whether performance has been impacted on those songs?
One of my projects I tested have a combination of REs and VSTs. Reason before patch was using roughly 53% maximum, after the patch it uses 57% maximum load. The average load was 51% before the patch, after the patch average load 53%.
Win10and a i5 3570K.

househoppin09
Posts: 536
Joined: 03 Aug 2016

11 Jan 2018

Thanks for clarifying that, drloop!
RandyEspoda wrote:
10 Jan 2018
Almost everyone with a pre-haswell chip, especially those with a Clarkdale or even Lynnfield, is reporting 'some' loss of performance with the patch, ranging from 5 to 15% depending on the hardware (it seems the type/brand of audio interface also matters, as are the type(s) of hard drives and such).
Interesting. That's pretty specific, can you share where you're getting this information from?
RandyEspoda wrote:
10 Jan 2018
I still use a Lynnfield but have no performance loss at all. Though maybe that's because I haven't installed the patch yet :roll:
Until word of an actual malware gets out using the exploits, there is little reason to already be concerned at all.
As of now there still aren't any...
By the time there is I'll def. take my measures, but until then I'll keep enjoying my overclock to the fullest.
Just FYI, you're not going to have a choice about applying the patch. MS is reportedly cutting off all further Windows updates, including critical security updates, to those who don't install it. Your only hope will be to turn off Page Table Isolation with a registry key after installing the patch... if there's actually a safe and reliable way to do that, which has yet to be seen. So, this really sucks.

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demt
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11 Jan 2018

i have a mind over matter trick, %50 difference, if anybodys intrested, takes about a month depending on the person /machine.
Reason 12 ,gear4 music sdp3 stage piano .nektar gxp 88,behringer umc1800 .line6 spider4 30
hear scince reason 2.5

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EnochLight
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11 Jan 2018

demt wrote:
11 Jan 2018
i have a mind over matter trick, %50 difference, if anybodys intrested, takes about a month depending on the person /machine.

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EnochLight
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11 Jan 2018

drloop wrote:
11 Jan 2018
Older processors and older OS like Windows 7 and 8 will lose performance.
https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... gRu08JQWQ)()

Using Windows 10 might give better performance.
Better performance than 7 and 8? Perhaps, but the slowdown on pre-Haswell chips will still be in the double-digits. :(
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

drloop
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11 Jan 2018

EnochLight wrote:
11 Jan 2018
drloop wrote:
11 Jan 2018
Older processors and older OS like Windows 7 and 8 will lose performance.
https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... gRu08JQWQ)()

Using Windows 10 might give better performance.
Better performance than 7 and 8? Perhaps, but the slowdown on pre-Haswell chips will still be in the double-digits. :(
My i5 3570k pre Haswell Ivy Bridge processor didnt lose more then a few %

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EnochLight
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11 Jan 2018

drloop wrote:
11 Jan 2018
My i5 3570k pre Haswell Ivy Bridge processor didnt lose more then a few %
That's Ivy Bridge, just like my 3770k. Man, I really want to believe you, but I'm terrified to hit that "update" button. When say you didn't lose more than a few % in performance, can you explain how you quantified your results? Did you run benchmark tests? Also, what audio interface are you using?
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

drloop
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11 Jan 2018

I run my own projects, read my earlier posts in this thread.
I use both M-Audio 2496 PCi interface and a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4.
Even run a test with ASIO4ALL drivers, same result, a hardly measurable difference before and after the patch.

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EnochLight
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11 Jan 2018

drloop wrote:
11 Jan 2018
I run my own projects, read my earlier posts in this thread.
I use both M-Audio 2496 PCi interface and a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4.
Even run a test with ASIO4ALL drivers, same result, a hardly measurable difference before and after the patch.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm looking for a more scientific benchmark/approach, but I appreciate the information.

Cheers
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

drloop
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12 Jan 2018

EnochLight wrote:
11 Jan 2018
drloop wrote:
11 Jan 2018
I run my own projects, read my earlier posts in this thread.
I use both M-Audio 2496 PCi interface and a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4.
Even run a test with ASIO4ALL drivers, same result, a hardly measurable difference before and after the patch.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm looking for a more scientific benchmark/approach, but I appreciate the information.

Cheers
Well benchmarking Reasonn is as scientific as it can get since the perfromance is application dependent.

"One of my projects I tested have a combination of REs and VSTs. Reason before patch was using roughly 53% maximum, after the patch it uses 57% maximum load. The average load was 51% before the patch, after the patch average load 53%.
Win10and a i5 3570K."

Avarage load performance after the patch is roughly 4% lower
Peak load performance after the patch is roughly 7% lower

Scientific enough ;)

RandyEspoda
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12 Jan 2018

househoppin09 wrote:
11 Jan 2018
Thanks for clarifying that, drloop!
RandyEspoda wrote:
10 Jan 2018
Almost everyone with a pre-haswell chip, especially those with a Clarkdale or even Lynnfield, is reporting 'some' loss of performance with the patch, ranging from 5 to 15% depending on the hardware (it seems the type/brand of audio interface also matters, as are the type(s) of hard drives and such).
Interesting. That's pretty specific, can you share where you're getting this information from?
"Terry Myerson, executive vice president for the Microsoft Windows and Devices Group, issued a stark warning Tuesday, noting that for Windows 10 PCs running on older chips, in particular in "2015-era PCs with Haswell or older CPU," some benchmarks had shown "more significant slowdowns" than modern computers, which would only see milliseconds shaved off processes. For older PCs, "we expect that some users will notice a decrease in system performance," Myerson added. And for Windows 7 and 8 users running those 2015 machines, most users are expected to take a hit." -> https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrew ... 870441447b

https://www.techarp.com/articles/pre-20 ... n-spectre/
https://www.techspot.com/community/topi ... re.243702/
https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/micros ... s-systems/
https://betanews.com/2018/01/10/microso ... -slowdown/

...
househoppin09 wrote:
11 Jan 2018
RandyEspoda wrote:
10 Jan 2018
I still use a Lynnfield but have no performance loss at all. Though maybe that's because I haven't installed the patch yet :roll:
Until word of an actual malware gets out using the exploits, there is little reason to already be concerned at all.
As of now there still aren't any...
By the time there is I'll def. take my measures, but until then I'll keep enjoying my overclock to the fullest.
Just FYI, you're not going to have a choice about applying the patch. MS is reportedly cutting off all further Windows updates, including critical security updates, to those who don't install it. Your only hope will be to turn off Page Table Isolation with a registry key after installing the patch... if there's actually a safe and reliable way to do that, which has yet to be seen. So, this really sucks.

I will have a choice still, and it doesn't really suck imo, cause there is little to worry about. I do not follow this media hype. Yes it is a vulnerability, but no as of today it still isn't exploited at all. By the time it is it can be treated like any other malware none the less. Any good AV coupled with security measures like noscript or similar automatically blocks access to any suspicious site or script running through it, ads are blocked by a decent add blocker. Places where such malware would hide...

I'll wait it out and keep updates off untill ... because over at MDL they'll come up with a solution for this pretty soon (as they've always done in the past decade for all of that stuff) ;)

And if a solution would turn out to be 'impossible' to circumvent the update and still receive the ones after,
I can still execute what I'd planned anyway and simply cut off updates, make the Win7 machine fully offline.
Was planning that before this crisis began anyway, once Win7 updates would stop in 2020, so nothing lost except it coming a bit sooner than expected. Big deal. Linux has long been my go to laptop for most online stuff anyway. But that's still worst case scenario, and too early to 'conclude' anything yet...

Because again, there are ppl that always find solutions to those kind of things...

I'll keep saying it: y'all are panicking over very little, moreover 'nothing' as of yet, because there still isn't any malware in existence that can abuse the exploits in the first place. By the time there is, malware will probably be able to mitigate it, 'also' for the non-patched systems. None the less by then I'll take measures if needed.
More than one IT egg-heads have already confirmed the 'over' hype on this, stating that many other malwares already floating around are way more dangerous to the home user with a much higher risk of actual infection. Why ? Because a malware is still needed to use meltdown or spectre in the first place, which is where the security measures already in place can still block it off as they do any suspicious behavior.

And suspicious behavior is exactly what the malware would be expressing during the attempt to acquire the needed elevated priveledges.
It is known that it would 'need' such priveledged access in the first place, in order to actually execute what is needed, and anti-malwares and AV's 'already' act upon such behavior, which most ppl are forgetting. It's a hype where the threat-assesment for the home based user is being equaled to that of CORPORATIONS, server-realms and high-level computerized entities, where actually the level of risk for home users would be much smaller, given the fact that the home user is well protected in the first place. These words don't come from me but from ppl like Mr Haber...such ppl would know.

Not saying the patch is useless, it obviously mitigates the issue 'at the very core', but running frantic to have this installed is insanity in itself.
One should be seeing this patch as a full fix that allows computers without any kind of security applications installed (FW, AV, anti-MW, HIPS, ...) to still be fully safe against this 'threat'. Because in essence that is exactly what it is.

My best advice for those on Win7 and old chips is still to relax the frell down, at least for a few weeks or so, and take a breath, nothing is happening to your system yet. Absolutely nothing.
Soon there will be a solution to the update 'block' (which is not the first kind of update 'block' from M$ that has been bypassed btw, the cpu block for new chips on Win7 was also bypassed in a matter of weeks while having been thought at first to be impossible to do so f.e.), and the exploits still aren't being abused in any possible manner, so for now it is still literally smoke and mirrors you are running from. There is still 'nothing' out there in the open. Keep up-to-date on the subject and simply wait it out, because a better solution than this patch 'will' come, without ruining your old cpu's performance. If not, you can still install the patch when reports of an existing malware start coming online, and because of the immense focus on this thing, they will.

Nobody has to believe me in this or take my word for it, absolutely not... just bypass all the media hype for yourself and read about what other respected ppl in their fields have to say about it regarding the 'home' users vs the corporately based server-realms...for the latter the threat is very dangerous indeed, and a lot more worrisome than for the former.

EdGrip
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12 Jan 2018

I don't think anybody is frantic to install the patch.
I'm sure most people here are both reasonably competent at avoiding, and not particularly bothered about, malware. I don't think malware is the worry for anyone here.
I think the worry is about losing DSPs because of a patch which will probably be practically unavoidable for the majority of users.

I am not worried about malware OR losing DSPs. For my money, life's too short for worrying about whether or not I need to start coming up with a cunning scheme to avoid a Windows update so that I don't lose the power for the 6th instance of VK-2.
I know that's easy for me to say, but yeesh.

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EnochLight
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12 Jan 2018

drloop wrote:
12 Jan 2018
EnochLight wrote:
11 Jan 2018


Thanks. Yeah, I'm looking for a more scientific benchmark/approach, but I appreciate the information.

Cheers
Well benchmarking Reasonn is as scientific as it can get since the perfromance is application dependent.

"One of my projects I tested have a combination of REs and VSTs. Reason before patch was using roughly 53% maximum, after the patch it uses 57% maximum load. The average load was 51% before the patch, after the patch average load 53%.
Win10and a i5 3570K."

Avarage load performance after the patch is roughly 4% lower
Peak load performance after the patch is roughly 7% lower

Scientific enough ;)
No, it's not scientific enough. ;) Your approach is subjective, and the percentage you're reporting is an estimate at best.. I much would have preferred using a Reason benchmark songfile and have actual points where the song stops playing back in the transport, instead. Again, I do appreciate the information you provided, though!
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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