Grain Filter gain?

[PhillipOrdonez]

Does anyone know the inner workings of the filter in Grain? Whenever I activate it, the gain increases considerably (no resonance), and upon opening up the filter (from the default mid position), there is harmonic content previously not present whilst bypassed. I am wondering: Is this normal behaviour? The gain increase happens with LPF and HPF. And the extra harmonic content happens with both the LPFs. In all cases, the resonance is at 0.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks!

[RandyEspoda]

Just curious, is there by any chance something routed to the Filter Freq in the modulation BUS matrix ?

Also : screenshots or vids always help

[PhillipOrdonez]

Just curious, is there by any chance something routed to the Filter Freq in the modulation BUS matrix ?

Also : screenshots or vids always help

Hey, thanks. So:
I routed an lfo to the freq control scaled by the modwheel. No env ammount on the filter. Even removing all modulation matrix routing the gain increases and the harmonic content changes with the filter open all the way compared to filter bypassed.



edit: If the image does not load, try this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejmp74rtpgleo ... h.PNG?dl=0

[selig]

Does anyone know the inner workings of the filter in Grain? Whenever I activate it, the gain increases considerably (no resonance), and upon opening up the filter (from the default mid position), there is harmonic content previously not present whilst bypassed. I am wondering: Is this normal behaviour? The gain increase happens with LPF and HPF. And the extra harmonic content happens with both the LPFs. In all cases, the resonance is at 0.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks!

There is a gain increase of 10 dB with the filter wide open, but no change of harmonic content I can hear.

I created a combinator that switched the filter in/out and lowered the gain by 10 dB, and other than a slight blip when hitting the switch at times, there is no change to the timbre of the signal that I can hear. No idea why they didn't compensate the gain boost of the filter.

[PhillipOrdonez]

There is a gain increase of 10 dB with the filter wide open, but no change of harmonic content I can hear.

I created a combinator that switched the filter in/out and lowered the gain by 10 dB, and other than a slight blip when hitting the switch at times, there is no change to the timbre of the signal that I can hear. No idea why they didn't compensate the gain boost of the filter.

Hey Selig, Thank you for that information. Here is a sample of a single chord played first through grain without filter and then with he filter.
I duplicated channels and tracks to demonstrate and made gain adjustments. The filter is wide open. I notice an increase in the high frequencies, which should not be there if they are not present when the filter is bypassed, correct?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owioz9dbhlqf4 ... e.wav?dl=0

Thanks!

[scratchnsnifff]

I have totally noticed this, I actually like it. The filter is like that of Synthmaster 2.9 where it has the pre gain, but grain seems to have that internally. I don't know if thats the literal case here, but thats the only thing I can compare it to. Usually if a sound is too quiet I use saturation to make the sound a bit more audible. sure it adds harmonic content, but i never say no to a nice distortion

[selig]

There is a gain increase of 10 dB with the filter wide open, but no change of harmonic content I can hear.

I created a combinator that switched the filter in/out and lowered the gain by 10 dB, and other than a slight blip when hitting the switch at times, there is no change to the timbre of the signal that I can hear. No idea why they didn't compensate the gain boost of the filter.

Hey Selig, Thank you for that information. Here is a sample of a single chord played first through grain without filter and then with he filter.
I duplicated channels and tracks to demonstrate and made gain adjustments. The filter is wide open. I notice an increase in the high frequencies, which should not be there if they are not present when the filter is bypassed, correct?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owioz9dbhlqf4 ... e.wav?dl=0

Thanks!

I definitely hear a difference in your audio example, but I cannot find any way to recreate this effect. I start with the default settings and simply switch the filter into the grain path while lowering the "Level" to the left of the switch.

If you provided the file and sample I could take a look and see what is different in your example.

FWIW, to me it sounds like the first example is filtered, and the second is not - in other words I don't hear it adding high frequencies in the second example.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Hey Selig, Thank you for that information. Here is a sample of a single chord played first through grain without filter and then with he filter.
I duplicated channels and tracks to demonstrate and made gain adjustments. The filter is wide open. I notice an increase in the high frequencies, which should not be there if they are not present when the filter is bypassed, correct?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owioz9dbhlqf4 ... e.wav?dl=0

Thanks!

I definitely hear a difference in your audio example, but I cannot find any way to recreate this effect. I start with the default settings and simply switch the filter into the grain path while lowering the "Level" to the left of the switch.

If you provided the file and sample I could take a look and see what is different in your example.

FWIW, to me it sounds like the first example is filtered, and the second is not - in other words I don't hear it adding high frequencies in the second example.

Thank you, Selig

I have sent you the project and sample via PM.

Yes, it does sound like that, however, the first example is not filtered and the second is filtered. Hopefully you will be able to hear this on your system when you try the patch... If not, it is a problem affecting me alone?

I have checked many times, and when you told me the exact db increase, I tested it with two copies of the patch, because it could be a mirage caused by gain increase, but no, definitely not in here :/

[selig]

I definitely hear a difference in your audio example, but I cannot find any way to recreate this effect. I start with the default settings and simply switch the filter into the grain path while lowering the "Level" to the left of the switch.

If you provided the file and sample I could take a look and see what is different in your example.

FWIW, to me it sounds like the first example is filtered, and the second is not - in other words I don't hear it adding high frequencies in the second example.

Thank you, Selig

I have sent you the project and sample via PM.

Yes, it does sound like that, however, the first example is not filtered and the second is filtered. Hopefully you will be able to hear this on your system when you try the patch... If not, it is a problem affecting me alone?

I have checked many times, and when you told me the exact db increase, I tested it with two copies of the patch, because it could be a mirage caused by gain increase, but no, definitely not in here :/

Sounds identical on your example, as it did with mine!

What I would need to be sure we are comparing the same thing is a "just hit play" song file, where I'd hear the file that created your audio example.

What I'm doing is routing the grain oscillator through the filter and cutting level by 9 dB (with a Combinator button). Again, I can't intentionally recreate your example where there is added harmonic content simply by routing the grain oscillator through the filter - nor would I expect this to be the case, as this would certainly not have past beta testing!

I suspect we are talking about different things here. To be clear, here's what I'm changing:

Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 12.10.25 PM.png (50.81 KiB) Viewed 1370 times

[PhillipOrdonez]

Thank you, Selig

I have sent you the project and sample via PM.

Yes, it does sound like that, however, the first example is not filtered and the second is filtered. Hopefully you will be able to hear this on your system when you try the patch... If not, it is a problem affecting me alone?

I have checked many times, and when you told me the exact db increase, I tested it with two copies of the patch, because it could be a mirage caused by gain increase, but no, definitely not in here :/

Sounds identical on your example, as it did with mine!

What I would need to be sure we are comparing the same thing is a "just hit play" song file, where I'd hear the file that created your audio example.

What I'm doing is routing the grain oscillator through the filter and cutting level by 9 dB (with a Combinator button). Again, I can't intentionally recreate your example where there is added harmonic content simply by routing the grain oscillator through the filter - nor would I expect this to be the case, as this would certainly not have past beta testing!

I suspect we are talking about different things here. To be clear, here's what I'm changing:
Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 12.10.25 PM.png

Okay! I see what is happening now. When I adjust the gain from the "level" knob it no longer sounds like on my example! I was adjusting the master volume from the device. So the added harmonics were perhaps the filter being overdriven and causing distortion, hence the added harmonics? Because now I am comparing using the audio example I rendered yesterday and two instances of grain, adjusting the gain at the level knob left to the filter. The two grains no longer show any discrepancies between them, and they do not sound like the second example in the audio file!

example audio render: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aufs2jrmhn0e ... s.wav?dl=0
1. Unfiltered
2. Filter enabled, all the way open, "level" knob adjusted -9.8 db
3. Example from yesterday unfiltered
4. example from yesterday, filter enabled and all the way open, with added harmonics.

-Feels like a noob-

[selig]

Sounds identical on your example, as it did with mine!

What I would need to be sure we are comparing the same thing is a "just hit play" song file, where I'd hear the file that created your audio example.

What I'm doing is routing the grain oscillator through the filter and cutting level by 9 dB (with a Combinator button). Again, I can't intentionally recreate your example where there is added harmonic content simply by routing the grain oscillator through the filter - nor would I expect this to be the case, as this would certainly not have past beta testing!

I suspect we are talking about different things here. To be clear, here's what I'm changing:
Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 12.10.25 PM.png

Okay! I see what is happening now. When I adjust the gain from the "level" knob it no longer sounds like on my example! I was adjusting the master volume from the device. So the added harmonics were perhaps the filter being overdriven and causing distortion, hence the added harmonics? Because now I am comparing using the audio example I rendered yesterday and two instances of grain, adjusting the gain at the level knob left to the filter. The two grains no longer show any discrepancies between them, and they do not sound like the second example in the audio file!

example audio render: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aufs2jrmhn0e ... s.wav?dl=0
1. Unfiltered
2. Filter enabled, all the way open, "level" knob adjusted -9.8 db
3. Example from yesterday unfiltered
4. example from yesterday, filter enabled and all the way open, with added harmonics.

-Feels like a noob-

Yes! I can confirm it's the filter saturating - learning something new every day!
The 12 dB/Oct filter does not exhibit this behavior fwiw. Easy to hear on the sine oscillator once you know it's there - no way to turn it off either, unlike Thor's filter.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Okay! I see what is happening now. When I adjust the gain from the "level" knob it no longer sounds like on my example! I was adjusting the master volume from the device. So the added harmonics were perhaps the filter being overdriven and causing distortion, hence the added harmonics? Because now I am comparing using the audio example I rendered yesterday and two instances of grain, adjusting the gain at the level knob left to the filter. The two grains no longer show any discrepancies between them, and they do not sound like the second example in the audio file!

example audio render: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aufs2jrmhn0e ... s.wav?dl=0
1. Unfiltered
2. Filter enabled, all the way open, "level" knob adjusted -9.8 db
3. Example from yesterday unfiltered
4. example from yesterday, filter enabled and all the way open, with added harmonics.

-Feels like a noob-

Yes! I can confirm it's the filter saturating - learning something new every day!
The 12 dB/Oct filter does not exhibit this behavior fwiw. Easy to hear on the sine oscillator once you know it's there - no way to turn it off either, unlike Thor's filter.

Awesome! Glad we learnt something new out of this!
Thank you so much for your help!