The Case for Evolving the User Experience

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Raveshaper
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26 Dec 2017

Backward compatibility is not keeping the look and feel of an application the same, it is preserving the possibility of creating things in the latest version that can be opened in the older versions.

Since that has never been possible, what we have is an app that looks, feels, and behaves the same and takes years to add only a couple of devices (in some cases).

Applications survive and thrive on what is new and what has changed. Looking, feeling, and behaving the same is a hard sell, especially when so many new users don't understand the prescribed "common sense" solution that makes no sense to them or when so many established users can't believe feature "x" still hasn't managed to arrive.

If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."

Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs. Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
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CephaloPod
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26 Dec 2017

Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017


If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."

Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs. Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
Pretty obvious troll job. Sounds like Reason isn't for you. Luckily, there are so many platforms now from which to make music. A lot of them are very similar. Reason is different. I use Reason when I want the rack, wires, the emulation of physical hardware. I use Logic when I don't. And I'm happy with both programs. I recommend happiness.
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RandyEspoda
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26 Dec 2017


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FlowerSoldier
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26 Dec 2017

Top kek of the day!
Anyone who thinks Raveshaper is a troll has never heard his music...
Dude is on a whole different level. Think bigger folks.

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Catblack
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26 Dec 2017

I really admire Raveshaper as a musician and as a coder. He's brilliant, though obviously cynical.

As for evolving the user experience, am working on it. (Via Remote, though it'll be a bit before I go public.) I know that even then I'm tying into the core Reason engine and that a lot of things there, particularly the sequencer, need to play catch up with other DAWs. I have faith in Propellerhead to listen to what the users have been asking for. I understand the frustrations with the Rack metaphor, but also I see the extended creative inspiration that comes with that metaphor. That is, you've got this great set of building blocks even though it's a pain in the ass to wire things up. That skeuomorphism is creative gold is what I'm saying. It's the main draw of this DAW. But getting things mapped out to physical controls is, to me, the next step. I'm optimistic. Next year will be great for Reason users, I'm pretty sure.
If you ain't hip to the rare Housequake, shut up already.

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EdGrip
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27 Dec 2017

Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Backward compatibility is not keeping the look and feel of an application the same, it is preserving the possibility of creating things in the latest version that can be opened in the older versions.
Not really - it's preserving the ability to open projects created in older versions in the latest version.

Technically maybe that's "forward compatibility", but it's what people usually use "backward compatibility" to mean.

antic604

27 Dec 2017

The OP's obviously not a troll, with close to 1k posts here...

On the other hand, what makes Reason special is the Rack and Mixer, so I wouldn't want those two things to change a lot. Instead, I'd prefer Props focusing their effort on making it stand out even more: make the existing Rack higher res & zoomable, integrate VSTs more by showing their GUI in the Rack, enhance the APIs to make a strong case for existence and using of REs, develop new native synths, effects & utilities allowing to do things impossible elsewhere, etc.

Obviously, the Sequencer needs to catch up with the times via the expected additions of things like: multi-clip editing, track folders, track freeze, etc. - in here, it can (and should!) be like any other DAW out there, but Rack (and Mixer) should be its selling point, just like Session View is for Ableton, Modulation is for Bitwig or MIDI editing is for Cubase.

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etyrnal
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27 Dec 2017

Raveshaper wrote:Backward compatibility is not keeping the look and feel of an application the same, it is preserving the possibility of creating things in the latest version that can be opened in the older versions.

Since that has never been possible, what we have is an app that looks, feels, and behaves the same and takes years to add only a couple of devices (in some cases).

Applications survive and thrive on what is new and what has changed. Looking, feeling, and behaving the same is a hard sell, especially when so many new users don't understand the prescribed "common sense" solution that makes no sense to them or when so many established users can't believe feature "x" still hasn't managed to arrive.

If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."

Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs. Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
The argument you're making is an argument against Reason in the first place. Because reason is based on the way synthesizers were used in the 70s. Connecting synthesizers via patch cables and emulating the look and sound of analog synths is part of what reason is all about. You are also advocating for making the entire user base relearn the app every time it's updated, instead of just the new users learning how it works. You are advocating for putting form ahead of function. You are advocating for making the look and style of an app and it's constant change as being more important than what the app can do. I suppose next, we will be advocating for taking away the patch cable system, because new users might cry over it. With this mentality eventually reason will become a stripped-down piece of garbage that is designed solely so that new users don't cry over it.

And next I suppose we're going to advocate for giving new users participation Awards.

Maybe reason should come with a free platinum record award for new users so that they'll feel better about using reason.



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Goodbye
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27 Dec 2017

CephaloPod wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017


If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."

Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs. Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
Pretty obvious troll job. Sounds like Reason isn't for you. Luckily, there are so many platforms now from which to make music. A lot of them are very similar. Reason is different. I use Reason when I want the rack, wires, the emulation of physical hardware. I use Logic when I don't. And I'm happy with both programs. I recommend happiness.
This is such a foolish response. It really reminds me of the fanboys on Mac forums. Call anyone that complains a troll and tell them to use something else. Just makes you look like a wanker.

Goodbye
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27 Dec 2017

Reason is amazing and unique. It is unlike other platforms and has countless wonderful features. It has also been badly neglected and is desperately in need of updating in many ways. It is possible for both these things to be true at the same time. You can love Reason as a platform and be really frustrated by the lack of attention it has had.

Equally it is possible to update reason whilst leaving the core intact and leaving the things that make it unique present. It isn't an either or choice.

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EnochLight
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27 Dec 2017

Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Backward compatibility is not keeping the look and feel of an application the same, it is preserving the possibility of creating things in the latest version that can be opened in the older versions.
No, it's not "preserving the possibility of creating things in the latest version that can be opened in the older versions". Backwards compatibility is preserving the ability to open old song projects - no matter how old - in the latest version and keep working on them.
Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Since that has never been possible, what we have is an app that looks, feels, and behaves the same and takes years to add only a couple of devices (in some cases).

Applications survive and thrive on what is new and what has changed. Looking, feeling, and behaving the same is a hard sell, especially when so many new users don't understand the prescribed "common sense" solution that makes no sense to them or when so many established users can't believe feature "x" still hasn't managed to arrive.

If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."
Meh, I can't argue with all of what you've said - but I will argue with the fact that you appear to be advocating for a complete change in the rack paradigm, and for that I have to say - there are plenty of other DAW that do it that way. Most of us use Reason literally for the rack.
Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs.
I don't think anyone is denying the fact that we all want changes/improvements, but opening new songs that were made in the latest version in an old version of Reason is literally the last thing anyone wants. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017
Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
Now that's just silly talk.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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Re8et
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27 Dec 2017

Well, Rebirth has hit the dust for good, it's only alive in a 32 bit world and ipad side.
My 32 bit pc died years ago too.
I have converted many uld songs into single combinators, to play them in 10 now, but I have thousands of them... So I kinda like the idea to keep Redrum as it is, and other old devices as they are.
Otherwise we would have to deal with anti-patterns and that is for Apple lovers, not me.
Want a Reason OS to fully exploit a pc capability based on Linux/Unix architecture?
That is cool, I am for visions like this, but not anti-patterns.

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CephaloPod
Posts: 268
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27 Dec 2017

I drive a Jeep. But I really want a pickup truck like everyone else. Why isn't my Jeep a pickup truck?
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Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

27 Dec 2017

CephaloPod wrote:
27 Dec 2017
I drive a Jeep. But I really want a pickup truck like everyone else. Why isn't my Jeep a pickup truck?
You drive a Jeep, but it's a really old model which is starting to break down and you haven't had it serviced for ages. One of your friends has a Jeep that is a similar age. It is so rusty he can see both the sky and the road through the bodywork. Sometimes he feels a bit sick when he drives long distances from the leaking fumes. One day you are sitting in a bar. He says 'Man I love my Jeep but I think I need to get a new model. It's falling apart.' You take a drink from your spritzer, try and suppress the anger building deep down , and blurt out 'How dare you talk about your Jeep like that. It's brilliant. It moves doesn't it? Mine is brilliant too. Sure it sometimes takes me an hour to get it running in the morning, but It's perfect. I drive it and I love it. Just stop complaining and drive it.' You pause as you realise the whole bar is looking at you. You realise your face is bright red and you are covered in sweat. Drops of sweat are splashing into your spritzer.

You get up and leave without saying anything more and walk out to your Jeep. You run your hand over it's lime green paintwork. You feel calmer now. You open the door, slip into the driver's seat and put your keys in the ignition. 'I'm a god damn king' you say to yourself. 'And this is my chariot'. You look at the furry dice hanging from the rearview and the decal across the windscreen that reads 'Born to drive'. 'I'm a god damn king' you say again and turn your keys in the ignition.

Your friend looks at your Jeep from the window of the bar. He sees it moving across the parking lot. The setting sun glints off the lime-green paintwork and for a second the Jeep looks like something from a film, then there is a big puff of steam from the radiator and It comes to halt. One of the wheels keeps going though and heads off across the road and into the long grass. There is only the sound of the wind, and from inside the Jeep the sound of sobbing.

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QVprod
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27 Dec 2017

Raveshaper wrote:
26 Dec 2017

what we have is an app that looks, feels, and behaves the same and takes years to add only a couple of devices (in some cases).

Applications survive and thrive on what is new and what has changed. Looking, feeling, and behaving the same is a hard sell, especially when so many new users don't understand the prescribed "common sense" solution that makes no sense to them or when so many established users can't believe feature "x" still hasn't managed to arrive.

If i had to condense my feeling on the Reason experience to one sentence, it would be this:

"In the Information Age, Reason seeks to manifest a faithful recreation of all the frustrations and limitations of physical hardware in the digital realm, and does too good of a job."

Things have to evolve now. It only makes sense if old versions can open newer songs. Stop reselling version 1, now in 64-bit, with more stuff strapped on.
Literally every DAW is like this for new versions. Workflow is pretty much the same with a few new things added on. No DAW that I know of has a UI drastically different than it's version 1. The core of how to use the program is always the same. Are there disadvantages to the rack format? Of course, however I'd be pretty annoyed if they got rid of it. I became a lot less frustrated Reason when I decided to use it for what it's best at and acquire other tools for things it wasn't the best at. Life is simple :cool:

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platzangst
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28 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
27 Dec 2017
Meh, I can't argue with all of what you've said - but I will argue with the fact that you appear to be advocating for a complete change in the rack paradigm, and for that I have to say - there are plenty of other DAW that do it that way. Most of us use Reason literally for the rack.
Like me.

When I started doing music on computer, I wound up with Reason because it was the easiest thing for me to wrap my head around. I've had an Ableton Lite license for countless years but there's just something about the way Ableton does things that is counter-intuitive to how I work. Ableton may arguably be one of the most popular DAWs out there but I can't be bothered to invest the time in training myself on it.

If Reason changes too drastically, that's when I stop using Reason.

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EnochLight
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28 Dec 2017

Goodbye wrote:
27 Dec 2017
CephaloPod wrote:
27 Dec 2017
I drive a Jeep. But I really want a pickup truck like everyone else. Why isn't my Jeep a pickup truck?
You drive a Jeep, but it's a really old model which is starting to break down and you haven't had it serviced for ages. One of your friends has a Jeep that is a similar age. It is so rusty he can see both the sky and the road through the bodywork. Sometimes he feels a bit sick when he drives long distances from the leaking fumes. One day you are sitting in a bar. He says 'Man I love my Jeep but I think I need to get a new model. It's falling apart.' You take a drink from your spritzer, try and suppress the anger building deep down , and blurt out 'How dare you talk about your Jeep like that. It's brilliant. It moves doesn't it? Mine is brilliant too. Sure it sometimes takes me an hour to get it running in the morning, but It's perfect. I drive it and I love it. Just stop complaining and drive it.' You pause as you realise the whole bar is looking at you. You realise your face is bright red and you are covered in sweat. Drops of sweat are splashing into your spritzer.

You get up and leave without saying anything more and walk out to your Jeep. You run your hand over it's lime green paintwork. You feel calmer now. You open the door, slip into the driver's seat and put your keys in the ignition. 'I'm a god damn king' you say to yourself. 'And this is my chariot'. You look at the furry dice hanging from the rearview and the decal across the windscreen that reads 'Born to drive'. 'I'm a god damn king' you say again and turn your keys in the ignition.

Your friend looks at your Jeep from the window of the bar. He sees it moving across the parking lot. The setting sun glints off the lime-green paintwork and for a second the Jeep looks like something from a film, then there is a big puff of steam from the radiator and It comes to halt. One of the wheels keeps going though and heads off across the road and into the long grass. There is only the sound of the wind, and from inside the Jeep the sound of sobbing.
Meanwhile, as both you and your friend are passed out drunk in your rusty Jeeps, I'm jamming away in my Jeep and making sweet, glorious music. Funny how that works! ;)
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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aeox
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28 Dec 2017

Re8et wrote:
27 Dec 2017
Reason OS
I support this message.

chaosroyale
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28 Dec 2017

It seems like maybe there are 2 different conversations going on in this thread.

I didn't see Raveshaper ask anyone to abandon the rack format? It seems like they were asking for updates that didn't slavishly emulate the negative aspects of the hardware.

I can think of one that we would all agree with right now: text input for values. Real hardware needs you to painstakingly move knobs up and down but Reason really, really needs a quicker and more precise way to enter values. And you could still do it the slow way if you really wanted to.

Reason without the rack isn't Reason, so I'd be very surprised if Raveshaper really meant get rid of it. And they are wrong about the meaning of "backwards compatibility", as others have pointed out. But they make good point about Props seemingly stubborn love of inconvenience.

I'd be happy if the backwards compatibility in future versions only went as far back as, say, Reason 8 or 9, if that made it easier to make workflow enhancements.

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EnochLight
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28 Dec 2017

chaosroyale wrote:
28 Dec 2017
I can think of one that we would all agree with right now: text input for values. Real hardware needs you to painstakingly move knobs up and down but Reason really, really needs a quicker and more precise way to enter values. And you could still do it the slow way if you really wanted to.
This, x10000!
chaosroyale wrote:
28 Dec 2017
Reason without the rack isn't Reason, so I'd be very surprised if Raveshaper really meant get rid of it. And [he is] wrong about the meaning of "backwards compatibility", as others have pointed out.
It would be nice if he could chime in and clarify what exactly he is suggesting. The OP was a bit vague.

chaosroyale wrote:
28 Dec 2017
But they make good point about Props seemingly stubborn love of inconvenience.

I'd be happy if the backwards compatibility in future versions only went as far back as, say, Reason 8 or 9, if that made it easier to make workflow enhancements.
Still not clear what's being asked for here.

I don't really have any issue with how backwards compatibility is handled right now. I can open every song I ever did from any version of Reason prior to the current one I'm using, and that's pretty bad ass. And yeah, I realize the Line6 stuff was removed after 8, but I can still open those tracks and work on them. So... yay? :lol:
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

28 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
28 Dec 2017
Goodbye wrote:
27 Dec 2017


You drive a Jeep, but it's a really old model which is starting to break down and you haven't had it serviced for ages. One of your friends has a Jeep that is a similar age. It is so rusty he can see both the sky and the road through the bodywork. Sometimes he feels a bit sick when he drives long distances from the leaking fumes. One day you are sitting in a bar. He says 'Man I love my Jeep but I think I need to get a new model. It's falling apart.' You take a drink from your spritzer, try and suppress the anger building deep down , and blurt out 'How dare you talk about your Jeep like that. It's brilliant. It moves doesn't it? Mine is brilliant too. Sure it sometimes takes me an hour to get it running in the morning, but It's perfect. I drive it and I love it. Just stop complaining and drive it.' You pause as you realise the whole bar is looking at you. You realise your face is bright red and you are covered in sweat. Drops of sweat are splashing into your spritzer.

You get up and leave without saying anything more and walk out to your Jeep. You run your hand over it's lime green paintwork. You feel calmer now. You open the door, slip into the driver's seat and put your keys in the ignition. 'I'm a god damn king' you say to yourself. 'And this is my chariot'. You look at the furry dice hanging from the rearview and the decal across the windscreen that reads 'Born to drive'. 'I'm a god damn king' you say again and turn your keys in the ignition.

Your friend looks at your Jeep from the window of the bar. He sees it moving across the parking lot. The setting sun glints off the lime-green paintwork and for a second the Jeep looks like something from a film, then there is a big puff of steam from the radiator and It comes to halt. One of the wheels keeps going though and heads off across the road and into the long grass. There is only the sound of the wind, and from inside the Jeep the sound of sobbing.
Meanwhile, as both you and your friend are passed out drunk in your rusty Jeeps, I'm jamming away in my Jeep and making sweet, glorious music. Funny how that works! ;)
You seem to spend a lot more time on this forum than almost anyone else. Are you 'making sweet glorious music' at the same time? If I was to stretch the analogy you would be sitting in your own derelict, engineless Jeep in a scrapyard full of other ruined Jeeps hammering your fist down on the horn whilst singing 'Fast Car' at the top of your lungs.

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stratatonic
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28 Dec 2017

CephaloPod wrote:
27 Dec 2017
I drive a Jeep. But I really want a pickup truck like everyone else. Why isn't my Jeep a pickup truck?
.
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EnochLight
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28 Dec 2017

Goodbye wrote:
28 Dec 2017
You seem to spend a lot more time on this forum than almost anyone else.
No more time than it takes you compose a fictional automobile analogy. ;) :cool: Don't be sore.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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chimp_spanner
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28 Dec 2017

There's plenty of scope for improvement (vector graphics, zoom, rack pop out editors, etc) but Reason IS the rack. As long as they add and don't take away, I'll be happy.

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etyrnal
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28 Dec 2017

chimp_spanner wrote:There's plenty of scope for improvement (vector graphics, zoom, rack pop out editors, etc) but Reason IS the rack. As long as they add and don't take away, I'll be happy.
Next they'll be shoving Material Design down our throats to make newbies and grandparents happy.

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