Question to Selig on how EHX pedals work

[calebbrennan]

I consider you a guru on sound engineering.

Your RE's are brilliant

My question is how does EHX create an organ , a piano, a sitar or a synth from guitar input with a 1/4in cord from guitar to unit.

Reason can't do this. What is the secret?

Here's my guess as I come from using a pro-one mono synth to create a horn section.

The way Roland and Sequential circuits created the first polyphonic synths was to speed the the singloscillator LFO up to out of the range of human hearing the repeating signal creating polyphony.

I feel this is the science behind EHX pedals. Otherwise it's a mystery to me.

What do you think?

[EdGrip]

I'm interested in trying to make the Digitech Synth Wah out of devices in Reason. I can't find any writing on how it works.

[wireless]

I love this challenge - for sure we need more Reason-based guitar effects! There's lots of clever folks in this forum, so let's get some more ideas going.

Here's an idea based on the kHs Pitch Shifter (currently only 9 euros in the sale - or just download a trial).
I've uploaded a combinator to emulate the choral effect that I hear.

CMB_Choral_Homebrew_V1_Wireless.zip

(3.01 KiB) Downloaded 76 times

.
It may not be the best guitar effect you've ever heard but it's not only usable but I'm pretty amazed at what can be achieved given the basic components we have in Reason. More ideas please.......

CMB_Choral_Panel_View_Wireless.JPG (33.6 KiB) Viewed 3378 times

[EdGrip]

Just wanna say, kHs Pitch Shifter for €9 is a no-brainer for an effect otherwise absent in Reason (unless you want to pay for Polar) and which is a building block of various other effects.

[normen]

It depends on which pedals you mean. The POG for example has an actual DSP chip inside, so its tracking is something you could do with Neptune, theres even a patch that allows you to play CV/gate controlled instruments via Neptune in the FSB. But most EH pedals modulate the original signal based on the pitch tracking info to make it sound like the instrument they want to emulate instead of playing samples or a synth. Some do have oscillators and some do play samples though.

Insides of the POG:

[calebbrennan]

i am a student of audio & synthesis for 30 years and I am baffled by how Ehx can do that with a simple 1/4 inch guitar input.

It doesn't make sense

Help me understand

So they make an analysis of wave form that is piano or sitar

How do they associte the waveform with a guitar signal

[calebbrennan]

IT'S BLOWING MY MIND

[Marco Raaphorst]

i am a student of audio & synthesis for 30 years and I am baffled by how Ehx can do that with a simple 1/4 inch guitar input.

It doesn't make sense

Help me understand

So they make an analysis of wave form that is piano or sitar

How do they associte the waveform with a guitar signal

Jam Origin can do that too, see: https://www.jamorigin.com

[normen]

IT'S BLOWING MY MIND

It's math!

[calebbrennan]

IT'S MATH

2+ 2 equals 5?

I'm not interesred in guitar synthesis via midi I've been there done that and have a GR-50 with unique programs I designed myself

The topic is how the hell does EHX do that?

Showing the undercarriage of of one of there units does not answer the question/

I'm trying to be Sherlock here because for me as a sound desingner I'm at loss how Ehx does Elec piano, Moog Synths sitar and Cathedral Org.

There has to be a princible involved I am missing.

[normen]

IT'S MATH

2+ 2 equals 5?

I'm not interesred in guitar synthesis via midi I've been there done that and have a GR-50 with unique programs I designed myself

The topic is how the hell does EHX do that?

Showing the undercarriage of of one of there units does not answer the question/

I'm trying to be Sherlock here because for me as a sound desingner I'm at loss how Ehx does Elec piano, Moog Synths sitar and Cathedral Org.

There has to be a princible involved I am missing.

So what did you do until now? How do your combinators look? What did you try? I'd say with the pitch tracking possibilities of Neptune plus all the other ways to modulate and oscillate in Reason you have all the tools at hand. Can't say for sure though as I don't know what pedal exactly you mean and even if I did I probably didn't play exactly that one yet.

Edit: To make it more clear: Modulate the actual guitar audio signal using the pitch info from Neptune to keep the modulation in tune. Try things like volume and pitch modulation and listen. Add pitched octaves or fifths, maybe mix in a bit of MIDI triggered audio and there you go - you will find sounds that sound strikingly similar to other instruments. Fine tune that, put it in a box, sell, be EHX

[calebbrennan]

Marco Raaphorst

Jam Origin can do that too, see: https://www.jamorigin.com

Marco thank you for that link. Now that is what I'm talking about!

( I have to admit I didn't give your link the attention it deserved as thought it was a program that demanded a hexaphonic pickup and though I currently own a Godin Guitar with a hex pickup, my intention in this thread was to figure out how EHX takes an audio signal from a guitar with no special pickup and can create polyphony and synth sounds)

Now that I've thoroughly checked out the site I see the creators of jam origin have figured out how to that and more because they are able to transfer the audio to a midi signals in REAL TIME..

I did explore the pitch to midi conversion in R10 and it was quite good but could only do a monophonic conversion and not in real time. When I played a two note chord or a triad it would not read it but would choose one of the notes in the chord.

Marco I have a question.

I thought I remembered you or someone here say that the limitations of using JamOrigin was that it could be used with VST's but will not lock to Reason Instruments. I could not find that comment. Maybe I dreamt it.
I don't use Vsts so I'm curious if you could clarify

[Marco Raaphorst]

Marco Raaphorst

Jam Origin can do that too, see: https://www.jamorigin.com

Marco thank you for that link. Now that is what I'm talking about!

( I have to admit I didn't give your link the attention it deserved as thought it was a program that demanded a hexaphonic pickup and though I currently own a Godin Guitar with a hex pickup, my intention in this thread was to figure out how EHX takes an audio signal from a guitar with no special pickup and can create polyphony and synth sounds)

Now that I've thoroughly checked out the site I see the creators of jam origin have figured out how to that and more because they are able to transfer the audio to a midi signals in REAL TIME..

I did explore the pitch to midi conversion in R10 and it was quite good but could only do a monophonic conversion and not in real time. When I played a two note chord or a triad it would not read it but would choose one of the notes in the chord.

Marco I have a question.

I thought I remembered you or someone here say that the limitations of using JamOrigin was that it could be used with VST's but will not lock to Reason Instruments. I could not find that comment. Maybe I dreamt it.
I don't use Vsts so I'm curious if you could clarify

Yes unfortunately VST in Reason is not able to send Midi out. MIDI on Rack device is needed!

So JamOrigin works superb in any other DAW except for Reason. Show stopper, sorry!

[normen]

It can also put out the notes through a virtual midi port, no need to use it as a plugin, works fine with Reason.

[Vince-Noir-99]

Consider the 2 aspects of the signal: AMPLITUDE/VOLUME and FREQUENCY/PITCH.
1) For the first one, you need an envelope follower. In its simplest form, a Gate On/Off would work (Pulveriser, MClass Comp...).

2) For the second one, the trick I found to be most effective, is to roll off as many overtones as possible before hitting the pitch detecting stage. In other words, try to deliver a tone as close as possible to a pure sine wave (i.e. the fundamental).

If working on a traditional guitar with 1 output (as opposed to hexaphonic pickups), of course the signal should be monophonic, especially when dealing with MIDI. The playing style should also be rather clean.

Once this is clear, driving any type of oscillator should work fine, and tons of fun! Surely Neptune is the first device to go to, but I've found Bitspeek's analysis by Sonic Charge to be even better.

[selig]

Not having any hands-on experience with these pedals, I would say first you need polyphonic pitch detection. Since there is no Reason device that can do this, I would conclude that it’s not possible to do this in Reason at preset.

As for the technology:
One advantage these pedals have is they already know exactly what the input is going to sound like and exactly what pitch range to expect. This is not common for other pitch detection technology, which cannot afford to make such sweeping assumptions. This gives their algorithm an advantage right off the bat!

Having not played with these pedals myself, I can only assume “clean” playing is essential for good results. Also unknown is the latency involved in the detection process, which can’t respond instantaneously (there will be some delay).



Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk

[wireless]

Just wanna say, kHs Pitch Shifter for €9 is a no-brainer for an effect otherwise absent in Reason (unless you want to pay for Polar) and which is a building block of various other effects.

Agreed. I downloaded a trial of the Polar device a week or so ago when it was Euro 69. While I was exploring this, it went on sale to Euro 49. I nearly went for it but then I came across the kHs device which represents much better value (bear in mind that inserting two kHs effects for Euro 9 gives you the core of the Polar Dual Pitch Shifter at Euro 49/69).

To be fair, both software instruments suffer in quality when compared to hardware (pedals, actual rack effects etc) in that more processor power can be dedicated to just this one task. By comparison, the software instrument needs to take more time (and hence latency) to achieve the same audio quality, or it can deliver relatively low latency but with a bunch of artefacts that can distract from the musicality that you're trying to achieve - both kHs and Polar suffer in this respect, while hardware like EHX pedals can deliver low latency and good audio quality. You pays your money.......

Then again, there's an option of adding dedicated DSP hardware to the desktop computer, but that's a whole new ballgame and yet another way to damage your credit rating.

[wireless]

It can also put out the notes through a virtual midi port, no need to use it as a plugin, works fine with Reason.

normen - can you explain further please? I've already got a copy of Midi Guitar 2 from Jam Origin. I'm aware that I can use this as a stand-alone application or as a VST inside of Reason. In both variants, I can access any VST instruments on the computer.

Due to current midi limitations in Reason 10, I've understood it is NOT possible to take midi from Midi Guitar 2 and pipe it into Reason instruments or REs. Are you suggesting that there IS a way to do that???? I'd be over the moon if it can be done....

[normen]

normen - can you explain further please? I've already got a copy of Midi Guitar 2 from Jam Origin. I'm aware that I can use this as a stand-alone application or as a VST inside of Reason. In both variants, I can access any VST instruments on the computer.

Due to current midi limitations in Reason 10, I've understood it is NOT possible to take midi from Midi Guitar 2 and pipe it into Reason instruments or REs. Are you suggesting that there IS a way to do that???? I'd be over the moon if it can be done....

The standalone version of MIDI guitar can route the detected notes to a virtual MIDI output.

[EdGrip]

Wireless - I've wondered before why classic effects like POG and Whammy don't seem to turn up as VST ports - because they're so old, it never occurred to me that it might be for reasons of processing power!

POG 2 is one pedal I always meant to buy but never got round to it.

[wireless]

normen - can you explain further please? I've already got a copy of Midi Guitar 2 from Jam Origin. I'm aware that I can use this as a stand-alone application or as a VST inside of Reason. In both variants, I can access any VST instruments on the computer.

Due to current midi limitations in Reason 10, I've understood it is NOT possible to take midi from Midi Guitar 2 and pipe it into Reason instruments or REs. Are you suggesting that there IS a way to do that???? I'd be over the moon if it can be done....

The standalone version of MIDI guitar can route the detected notes to a virtual MIDI output.

normen - thanks so much for putting me on the right track. I did not have that option under MIDI INTERFACE OUTPUT, but I found a good explanation under the Reason section of the Jam Origin's website. This set me off to download a copy of the virtual midi cable known as 'loopbe1'. Once I selected this option in both Midi Guitar 2 and in Reason (as a new keyboard using the 'other' option), then all was well and I can now play Europa from the guitar - whoop whoop. Chuffed to bits. Thank you for your help and support

[wireless]

Wireless - I've wondered before why classic effects like POG and Whammy don't seem to turn up as VST ports - because they're so old, it never occurred to me that it might be for reasons of processing power!

POG 2 is one pedal I always meant to buy but never got round to it.

EdGrip - Don't know how you guessed I'm of a certain vintage (maybe my avatar?), but you're right in that not all the earlier audio hardware effects have 'made it' into the wonderful world of software emulation. I started my career in electronics design, but while I worked 'for the man' I would spend my spare time tinkering with the inwards of guitars and making my own sound effects. One of my more successful units was based on one of the first analogue bucket brigade chips to come onto the market. Most chips at the time were implementing digital logic, but a few brave manufacturers were focusing on integrating analogue circuitry. This chip was basically 100 analogue sample and hold circuits linked in a chain between input and output. So once I figured the fun to be had out of LFO-controlling the bucket shift clock, I was off and running. Very crude for it's time but hey?

There is a bit of a revival of DIY these days in the 'maker' market and with processor systems like Arduino and Raspberry Pi, but I'm not sure I'll ever again see the days when youngsters were down in Tandy in their droves looking for just the right size of resistor for the current project?

PS And of course, you're still looking at £300 for a POG2.....

[calebbrennan]

Thanks everybody for the great responces on this thread.

Selig for verifying Reason's limitations on being able to program this type of polyphony from standard guitar hookup using the current R10 architecture

"EdGrip wrote: ↑ , it never occurred to me that it might be for reasons of processing power!"

So even with Reasons awesomness. EHX can achieve a superior polyphonic tracking because the dedicated processor and an algorythm that knows it's input will be a guitar. Very cool

Big shout out to Normen and Morco's dialogue which revealed a great work around using Jam origin and its virtual midi output. Thanks guys. I'm going to put JamOrigin on my purchase wish list.

Even though I love my GR50 and Godin with hex pickup and have used it succesfully it can be glitchy so always end up going back to the keyboard for accurate triggering. I mayfind the same is true with jam origin into reason. I'll report back when I get there. At least I won't have to deal with the unwieldy 12 pin cord that enables a hex pickup.

But in the meantime this discusion solved a mysteryi could not get my head around.

Side note story:
I remeber reading a story in some music magaizine years ago about a Film and televison composer. He had all the latest digital gear and synths, a succesful carreer with several assistants and journeymen composers.

The reporter remarked that on a section of the floor he had bank upon bank of every EHX pedal made and he said it was his secret weapon. He would often create a riff with these and sample it and bring it in to protools.

Interesting No?

[calebbrennan]

Next Mystery.

Norman I loved the rack you designed for your band and it totally inspired me

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7504246&p=367340#p367340

I responded about Rundgren 1978 doing shows without amps on stage and in the 80’s me playing through a pocket sized Rockmen in clubs direct to the sound system that sounded better than my vintage amp. But I may have responded on the wrong thread,

I was intrigued that you claimed to be triggering hex guitar synths via wireless set up. How the heck is that possible? I don't doubt you. But can you clarify how you did that. Roland developed the hex system and from what i know it demands 12 pin cord.

Can you explain that again. Or did I read it wrong?

[normen]

You read it wrong.