How do you guys feel about Reason getting rewritten on 11?

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QVprod
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap. Probably dozens, if not hundreds. Maybe that identifies it enough.
That makes me question the people mixing. Granted, I actually agree that some DAWs have better stock plugins for mixing. It's one of the Reason's I started using Studio One, but Reason wasn't originally created as a "mixing platform". That changed a bit with Record, but the reason you haven't heard a great mix out of Reason (that you know of) is probably because you just haven't come across one. How would you know what someone used to mix unless they told you right? You mentioned the propellerhead mixes earlier, keep in mind that Youtube mangles the sound, but the videos they do aren't mixed with the intent of release. I've heard licensed songs on commercials that don't have the best mixes.

Nonetheless all of this is irrelevant no? In every DAW no ones sticks to the stock fx anyway. You have access to both VSTs and REs to add as you please so now, there's no excuse for not being able to get a good mix in Reason outside of one's own ability. Hence this "Reason sound" conversation is just silly at this point.

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EnochLight
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap.
If you think Drake and Marian Hill achieved top 40 success and ad placement, but released crap mixes in Reason... I'm going to have to err on the likelihood that you don't know what a good mix sounds like. I mean, that's fine and all, but you should re-consider how much weight you think your opinion carries, is all.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

madmacman
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap. Probably dozens, if not hundreds. Maybe that identifies it enough.
Aaahh, thanks for telling me. Now I got it. I'll go straight to my wife and ask for funding a copy of Cubase, or Logic, or whatever...

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
You did, in fact, call for it. You just didn't do your homework well enough to realize. Take some time to think that through. :)
Actually, no, I didn't. And there's a reason people don't insult people and think it's just ok if they state "you called for it", Cause anybody else can do the exact same thing, stating the exact same "reason". Adding "you called for it" doesn't make it more ok, it's just an extra sentence.

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
You did, in fact, call for it. You just didn't do your homework well enough to realize. Take some time to think that through. :)
Actually, no, I didn't. And there's a reason people don't insult people and think it's just ok if they state "you called for it", Cause anybody else can do the exact same thing, stating the exact same "reason". Adding "you called for it" doesn't make it more ok, it's just an extra sentence.
So is your back paddling.

I take it you only signed up for the arrogant drama and subtle denigrating remarks. You're going to have a hard time here.
Kenni Andruszkow
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joeyluck
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
I'm not. And yes, you're inept. You must be.
You're not, but you are - you're just awesome.

And why am i a troll, just cause you don't agree with what I am saying? Do I need your permission to say my piece or else you'll label me, how does this work?

The fact that you come here and right off the bat are making nothing but these silly, tired, "reason-sound" claims is what comes off as trollish. The fact that you would join a Reason forum and immediately attempt to bash the DAW and discredit it through your baseless claims is a red flag.

Reason can use Reason devices, Rack Extensions, and VSTs. What it comes with in the box I would argue is greater than any other DAW. But that of course is just my opinion. Beyond that, people can use any RE they want or VSTs just like in any other DAW. And just the same as other DAWs, you can use those third party plugins to get the magic you try to explain that you are hearing (or not hearing). Those plugins can be used in Reason and they don't come with those other DAWs.

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AttenuationHz
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11 Dec 2017

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EdGrip
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11 Dec 2017

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(That's a scene from Troll 2.)

chaosroyale
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11 Dec 2017

This is really going off the rails...

A VST sounds exactly the same in any DAW. A sample sounds exactly the same in any DAW. Any "Reason sound" not related to workflow or ease of use is entirely in your head.

Now, there ARE workflow issues in all DAWs which can make certain types of sounds easier or harder to make.

If Tryggvasson had said something specific like "the MClass EQ and dynamics devices are really outdated and lacking in features compared to other DAWs" then yes, sure. I suppose that could contribute to a "Reason sound" in the sense that it is impossible to get either surgically precise or very "characterful" dynamics control and EQ with stock devices in Reason at the moment.

However, most of the great surgical or colorful devices out there are VSTs, which ARE available in Reason.

As for "all stock devices" being "crap"??? Echo is a very good tape echo (needs more CV in tho), Scream is still one of the best and most widely useful saturation/distortion units (but needs to fix that bloody phase issue on tape mode!) and the RV7000mk2 sits alongside some very expensive and famous reverbs on my tracks and sometimes gets used in preference to them. And that little half-rack filter -> Softube saturation knob = instant phatness.

Back on topic: I don't know how Reason is coded, maybe an RE dev has more of an idea. Is it possible to "slot in" updates to elements like the GUI while keeping everything else intact?

scratchnsnifff
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11 Dec 2017

So I was thinking about what the dude who wrote a book said, I actually like the idea of “getting rid of the old devices” aka reinvigorating them, dry wet knobs all around maybe a more in depth phaser with the addition of synth content Iv recently thought that it would be cool if PH teamed up with izotope for some new effect plugins, as I mainly use my REs for effects. Scream pulverized and the mclas EQ will always make it into my projects, but at the same time the idea by Joey was a good one. If the legacy devices could be in a legacy folder. I still also use the digital delay for the haas effect. I’m not for deleting the handy dandy ol half racks but it would be cool to see a new breed on the block. I think I see what the dude was saying at least on that aspect. With any daw there will always be room for improvement
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QVprod
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12 Dec 2017

chaosroyale wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Back on topic: I don't know how Reason is coded, maybe an RE dev has more of an idea. Is it possible to "slot in" updates to elements like the GUI while keeping everything else intact?
To answer the question, while I myself haven't coded any software, I've done some copy and paste "coding" with websites. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, you don't re-write all of the code. You just change the bits that require changing. With that in mind it seems to make little sense to rewrite from the ground up but simply the addition and changing that they've always done. A complete rewrite would only be necessary if something was Broken, or if they were replacing Reason with a new product. For instance, I doubt updates like RV7000 mk2 required Props to rewrite functions from scratch.

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normen
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12 Dec 2017

Guys, usually I am the one who's bad at leaving a troll be - he landed on my ignore list right after his first few posts based on my new sorting technique. To be fair though, you could have simply ignored his comments based on the fact that he never got out of the opinion corner. "Tryggvasson" thinks Reason sounds crap - so what?

kooshan
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12 Dec 2017

chaosroyale wrote:
11 Dec 2017
This is really going off the rails...

A VST sounds exactly the same in any DAW. A sample sounds exactly the same in any DAW. Any "Reason sound" not related to workflow or ease of use is entirely in your head.

Now, there ARE workflow issues in all DAWs which can make certain types of sounds easier or harder to make.

If Tryggvasson had said something specific like "the MClass EQ and dynamics devices are really outdated and lacking in features compared to other DAWs" then yes, sure. I suppose that could contribute to a "Reason sound" in the sense that it is impossible to get either surgically precise or very "characterful" dynamics control and EQ with stock devices in Reason at the moment.

However, most of the great surgical or colorful devices out there are VSTs, which ARE available in Reason.

As for "all stock devices" being "crap"??? Echo is a very good tape echo (needs more CV in tho), Scream is still one of the best and most widely useful saturation/distortion units (but needs to fix that bloody phase issue on tape mode!) and the RV7000mk2 sits alongside some very expensive and famous reverbs on my tracks and sometimes gets used in preference to them. And that little half-rack filter -> Softube saturation knob = instant phatness.

Back on topic: I don't know how Reason is coded, maybe an RE dev has more of an idea. Is it possible to "slot in" updates to elements like the GUI while keeping everything else intact?
I strongly believe that we could achieve perfect mix and mastering in reason , even with the stock devices and without Re’s . This is what I did all these years with success . Though Re’s gave some great devices made things easier at some cases and Vst’s now are really helpful .

I insist that even with stock devices NOW everyone could do great mixes and masters in Reason .

madmacman
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12 Dec 2017

normen wrote:
12 Dec 2017
Guys, usually I am the one who's bad at leaving a troll be - he landed on my ignore list right after his first few posts
Sounds like a good idea. During his first posts I still had some hope for a proper discussion, until he took the killer argument "EVERY single mix made in Reason sounds crap" bla bla

End of story.

sdst
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12 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap. Probably dozens, if not hundreds. Maybe that identifies it enough.
can you please put your soundcloud or whatever?, I would like to hear your mixes. :)

i don't agree that Reason sounds like that bad, I did a test vs other DAW and it sounds very similar

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motuscott
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12 Dec 2017

I simply cannot hear you over the horrible Reason Sound my computer keeps emitting.
Plz switch to another platform so we can continue this discussion like adults.
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

33db
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12 Dec 2017

I wouldn't want change in the way it looks and acts, if the code was rewritten "under the hood" to function better (lower latency better VST compatibility) or sound better sure.
But not the GUI, because I wouldn't want to wake up to a Reason that looks flat like iOS or Windows 10.

ltbrunt00
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13 Dec 2017

As long as the GUI stays mostly the same. I can live with enhancements to the GUI but the basic GUI concepts have been the same since version 1. Update to any GUI graphics or features to the legacy instruments would always be welcomed.

Better VST optimization. Maybe sandbox the VST instruments like bitwig which prevents the application from crashing due to an issue with a single VST instrument. Or maybe add a feature to allow you the option to sandbox VST instruments of your choosing.

Updates to midi editing would be very useful. In Studio One and Bitwig it is easier to manipulate all the midi data in all the clips at the same time. Bitwig midi editing features are kind of insane. Insane in a very good way.

If they did a rewrite and it ended up being exactly the same I would still be primarily using reason.
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ltbrunt00
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13 Dec 2017

I would love to see continued support for rack extensions. I enjoy using reason with the seamless integration of REs. I would really love to use all my rack extensions in other DAWS (I know this would never happen)

The RE's could only ever be sold from the prop shop so the Props would always have a revenue stream.
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Oquasec
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13 Dec 2017

Ableton is already "Flat Reason" let's keep it that way and keep Reason in the 3d realm.
Producer/Programmer.
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ilikestargazing
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13 Dec 2017

Short answer, Yes please.

Long answer, Oooh GOD yessssssssssss, please!!!!!!!!

I love Reason for all its strengths and flaws but it absolutely needs an overhaul. Agree with most points here and realise it would be a lot of work for PH so I just hope it'll arrive eventually.

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AttenuationHz
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13 Dec 2017

ilikestargazing wrote:
13 Dec 2017
Short answer, Yes please.

Long answer, Oooh GOD yessssssssssss, please!!!!!!!!

I love Reason for all its strengths and flaws but it absolutely needs an overhaul. Agree with most points here and realise it would be a lot of work for PH so I just hope it'll arrive eventually.
I'd strongly disagree it doesn't need an overhaul, optimization yes. The fact that nobody really knows what devices need the most resources is worrying though. A lot of VST's eat DSP. As do some RE's. The lack of listed devices in the forums here that require more resources would suggest that not everyone really cares about managing projects and just puts the blame with how Reason is coded. But not having tools in Reason to detect that sort thing is also why there is no list. If there was a list you can be guaranteed everyone would manage their resources better. From processor to processor these things would be different though. One persons optimization someone else would have no need for it. A lot of variables to consider.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

chaosroyale
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13 Dec 2017

My 2 pennies:

Flat GUI: oh god no!!!
Hi res GUI: please yes, incredibly overdue.

Feature wise I only really care about getting an updated combinator ....oh, and direct input of values, I mean its 2017 already. Neither of those things would need a big re-write.

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AttenuationHz
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13 Dec 2017

chaosroyale wrote:
13 Dec 2017
My 2 pennies:

Flat GUI: oh god no!!!
Hi res GUI: please yes, incredibly overdue.

Feature wise I only really care about getting an updated combinator ....oh, and direct input of values, I mean its 2017 already. Neither of those things would need a big re-write.
Not a big rewrite because they are not there in the first place. Inputting values would require a big write. Updating a combinator to include more buttons or whatever would require a big write you could take what is there but it would require adding fields and making space for any new buttons/knobs.

I agree that they would be very welcomed to have, for me anyway, especially inputting values but have to say other things should get priority first like optimization. No good having transport and not enough fuel to get you from A-B! with no service stations along the way :P

All RE are already future proofed to 4k so its just a matter of time on that one. Its just body work though what is under the hood is where it counts!!
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

EdGrip
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13 Dec 2017

I dunno why they didn't make the VST wrapper a combinator. They sort of half did, with the CV programmer, but no knobs.
It must be cos they don't want combinator knobs inside a combinator with knobs, but I don't know why.

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