How do you guys feel about Reason getting rewritten on 11?

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

avasopht wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
It's got the rack, and the built in SSL console. That's pretty much it. Should there be more? Are you more interested in Reason being "different" than in it being good?
Failing to see how removing Propellerhead REs and other things makes it all of a sudden sound better.
Does that sound cool? Seriously? Is that what you mean by professional sound? Maybe we just differ in expectations.

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
11 Dec 2017
EdGrip wrote:
11 Dec 2017


Propellerhead said they will be fixing the Reason Sound to allow Reason to sound professional in a 10.x update.
FlowerSoldier wrote:
11 Dec 2017
You got a source you can link to Ed?
I hadn't heard that. Most interesting.
Hehehe, I see that sarcasm is easily lost in translation on the Internetz... :lol: :lol: :lol: He's kidding. Reason "not sounding professional" is ludicrous. It also seems that people's metric of what sounds "pro" and what doesn't is subjective. There are plenty of productions that were done in Reason that are on the radio and in ads, etc. Just because you may not approve of the mix is completely subjective.

Here's one that comes to mind (all over the radio where I'm at, and Apple featured it in an ad):

No offence, but it sounds horrible. It has all the problems I was quoting above. But maybe the finalized song (in Reason, not exported to ProTools, or whatever) would sound better that this video with soundbytes of the dude working.

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joeyluck
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
avasopht wrote:
11 Dec 2017


Failing to see how removing Propellerhead REs and other things makes it all of a sudden sound better.
Does that sound cool? Seriously? Is that what you mean by professional sound? Maybe we just differ in expectations.
And there you have it...

It's different preferences in sound. Just the same as people who still turn to vintage synths; some analog and some digital. And why developers still make emulations of classic gear. Some people don't like the sound of the DX7/PX7. I love it with and without effects added. And the same goes for native devices in Reason; each has a use and place to shine. What you're suggesting is diminishing a pretty well-rounded palette.

avasopht
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017

OBVIOUSLY REPLACING them, not merely removing them would do the trick. It kind of seemed obvious to me.
It should also be OBVIOUS that I'm not a mind reader. So sure, the idea that replacing a device with better sounding devices would give a significant improvement in quality is obvious. Knowing that that is what YOU were thinking, rather than just what you actually said, is not.

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

avasopht wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017

OBVIOUSLY REPLACING them, not merely removing them would do the trick. It kind of seemed obvious to me.
It should also be OBVIOUS that I'm not a mind reader. So sure, the idea that replacing a device with better sounding devices would give a significant improvement in quality is obvious. Knowing that that is what YOU were thinking, rather than just what you actually said, is not.
Nevermind.

avasopht
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017

No offence, but it sounds horrible. It has all the problems I was quoting above. But maybe the finalized song (in Reason, not exported to ProTools, or whatever) would sound better that this video with soundbytes of the dude working.
And can you identify specifically how this is caused by the devices and not his engineering decisions?

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Psuper
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11 Dec 2017

@mcatalao
I remember how I felt. As for anyone else... Any forum posts from inception to infinity will show some for, some against, in their take on said upgrade . Minus the overwhelming future forum posts, where a hindsight side emerges as more accurate.

Remember how people feel when Reason 7 or 8 got out just with workflow and graphics revisions?
I grabbed 7, not 8.

Remember how people felt when 10 got out with 3 new devices and no new functions?
Passed on 10.

Remember how people felt betraid when reason 6.5 got out with rack extensions?
I was neutral, I'm always for developers trying something new, not being afraid to get outside the box. I used Cakewalk, Reaper, and Reason, lots of options then -- Reason was mainly an instrument.

Remember how people felt betraid when reason 9.5 got out with VST Support?
I upgraded when 9.5 was released, not 9.

Remember how people got MAD because Record appeared with Audio and Reason integration?
I just wanted Audio-in native. Keep in mind people used Reason primarily as an instrument, not a DAW. I found myself just enjoying messing around with Reason all the time and wanted it to be a DAW.

And do you remember how people felt confused when record was dismissed and Reason 6 got Audio in?
I was absolutely ecstatic. To focus everything in Reason was my goal, even though it wasn't an ideal DAW at the time. Some like myself could also make the argument that Reason is still better as just instrument, vs a fully realized DAW.

I think it could easily be better in both arenas today. Propellerhead should fix VST performance, then focus on the DAW : performance, options, gui, and backend.

Leave the RE stuff to RE devs, give them the playground to create and develop. Propellerhead should only make core devices/tech that RE devs are unable to develop. RE devs can then utilize those new back-end options in their own RE offerings.

I want Reason to be a DAW first -- support the engine, which in turn supports all users and developers. Take a modular approach if you will...

Reason doesn't need to reinvent itself. Reason needs to DAW,
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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EnochLight
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
No offence, but it sounds horrible. It has all the problems I was quoting above. But maybe the finalized song (in Reason, not exported to ProTools, or whatever) would sound better that this video with soundbytes of the dude working.
That's my point. What you deem horrible, others may feel sound excellent. The other point is that there are plenty of commercial releases that were produced in Reason. Both the Marian Hill track and the Drake track were in the US Top 40. These are just two examples.

I would be more interested in what you feel needs to be changed in Reason to fit the "pro" sound you are after, because clearly chart topping musicians aren't having an issue.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

Empty barrels makes the most noise as they say.

I've developed some sort of allergy I guess, because I seriously can't stand random people pulling the "professional" card in a DAW debate with absolutely nothing to show.

I've been in the music business for 17 years. There's a very few people who attribute themselves with the professional tag that can actually back that up with... Well, anything at all.

The "reason sound" argument is dated and lacks intellect, at best. Please don't go there. We'll bucket those discussions where they belong. And yes, you can call me a tyran. And no, we're not going to be democratic about it.

Kenni Andruszkow
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Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

joeyluck wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017


Does that sound cool? Seriously? Is that what you mean by professional sound? Maybe we just differ in expectations.
And there you have it...

It's different preferences in sound. Just the same as people who still turn to vintage synths; some analog and some digital. And why developers still make emulations of classic gear. Some people don't like the sound of the DX7/PX7. I love it with and without effects added. And the same goes for native devices in Reason; each has a use and place to shine. What you're suggesting is diminishing a pretty well-rounded palette.
It is not about the timbre. It is about quality.

It is about harshness all around in the highs.

It is about the transients, a plastic-y splash on anything with a sharp attack (percussion, pianos, and not only), that you can't remove without dulling the attack, and that is omni-present in all that was posted here - if it wasn't omni present in all that I've heard before.

It's about the frequency response - namely the same highs - that makes everything sound flat.

It's about that - I don't know how to describe it - meagreness, a thin core of the sound, that is being covered by added mud, like a balloon with almost the quality of a sine wave, to make for "roundness", instead of just plain richness, fullness of tone - I don't know how to describe it, I just feel it, it's a feature of digital productions. That seems to be a reoccurring thing in Reason - every enhancer plugin adds a shit load of mud, in order to give it some richness. Maybe it's just in the alrgorithm.

It's about different emulation of the SAME gear that sound better by other makers (but then again, IKM are at the top of the emulation game). Not just different, BETTER. You know when I say that Reasons sounds digital? Well, those sound analog. For real. Transients and all, although not completely, it almost completely solves the harshness and depth problem), just by smacking those on, which is another factor that makes me think there might be something wrong with the platform.

The same problem doesn't seem to appear as much in Cakewalk for instance, or Cubase, Logic or Protools. Guess what? I hear it in Ableton, too, although not very clear how much different it is, I haven't worked in it that much, cause I can't stand it. Just tried it a few times.

I don't have a problem with the sound choice, to each their own. But the way those sounds... sound, they way they come out of the speakers is entirely digital.

I mean, you can pretty much recognize digital productions on the radio, these days, and they have a lacking quality - but there is a huge difference even between what I hear ALL the time in Reason and that.

It seems people have grown so accustomed to digital sound, it doesn't even bother them. Although big time producers and engineers try to avoid it like ther plague.

Thinking about making a real analog sounding record, with real instruments, in Reason, something like an 80s pop or rock record, or even a 70s disco? It's a joke to even mention it. You need a different DAW for that. If one attempts to, the result is, as the presentations said it, "a modern interpretation of that vintage sound", but that seems to me as just marketing for the same shitty sound you cannot escape no matter what.

To me it is absolutely clear that PH RE, except the synths, sound like crap. Not bad, like crap. I mean that's why people have been asking for VST, haven't they? And the halfracks are just jokes, from a professional DAW standpoint.

And just the exercise of replacing them with better ones would prove that point without need to talk further on it. I mean I couldn't perform proper eqing to save my life, until I bought the Black Knight, and then, magically it all became easy. I couldn't get a guitar sound to save my life - I mean real, not that stingy shit - until I got Overloud TH3. AmpliTube also sounds fantastic. The Softube Amp doesn't.

The difference between the tape of the Audiomatic and some free VST I found on the web is HUGE. As was between the Audiomatic hi-fi enhancer and some harmonic enhancers, again, free, that I downloaded.

This is why I'm writing this, not because I dreamt it one night. These are facts. Anybody want to check it for themsleves, do it and see what you think.

Those are the plugins. When you get an SSL bus compressor comparison into the equation - that of the built in SSL emulation to a third party, and the built in loses, and you add that to the sound concerns above, you start to question the platform. It's that simple. But, if people are gonna tell me those track examples sound "good", maybe the talk is pointless.

if people are more interested in some imaginary ego bruises, than in actually discussing the topic, for the benefit of US ALL, I rest my case.

I was expecting interventions on the subject, opinions pro/aginst, not trials for blasphemy.

I truly don't understand that. It's an observation. Which could be taken into account - I mean we all have the interest of sounding our best, not of getting butthurt, like we're part of some untouchable cult, or something, and I've just cursed the mother of it - and dogma and condescendence just raise eyebrows, far from solving it, maybe arguments and knowledge, if someone has some on the topic of the sound platform, do.

Ironies only make sense from a "hollier than thou/that can't happen" stance, which, frankly, on me is largely lost. To me it is a real concern, and condescendence seems wanton, as a solution to that concern - if not to everything. Apparently, I am also not the only one who has that concern.

I would expect people to note how the platform sounds. I would expect them to talk about. I wouldn't expect anyone to get butthurt. This seems inexplicable to me.
Last edited by Tryggvasson on 11 Dec 2017, edited 3 times in total.

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

avasopht wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017

No offence, but it sounds horrible. It has all the problems I was quoting above. But maybe the finalized song (in Reason, not exported to ProTools, or whatever) would sound better that this video with soundbytes of the dude working.
And can you identify specifically how this is caused by the devices and not his engineering decisions?
If every single thing I've heard in Reason sounds this same way, and I have been personally struggling to get rid of that sound, for years, and only - in great part, but not completely - managed to do it, once I started to use VSTs, I assume it can be the engineer. I mean, I accept I may be an idiot - although that wouldn't explain the sudden progress once the plugins were changed - but is just everybody the same way?

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FlowerSoldier
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11 Dec 2017

Dang it. I was mostly looking for clarification...
Some of my favourite recordings are from the Sex Pistols.
A good musical idea shines through no matter how it is recorded. That is what is most important. A strong idea.
That's just like, my opinion though.

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

Nobody's butthurt, but all this crying that we've seen over the many years this has been a topic spells "inept" - It's fine that some people can't get the sound of reason they expect their songs to have, but it's mainly a PEBKAC issue. It's the same crying you get from other inept engineers in other DAW forums.

It's just pointless. Throwing technical terms into the equation to rise above the "Rookie label" doesn't help or change anything. Talk about transients all you want. Timbre, high frequencies, all that jazz. It doesn't change a thing, whatsoever.

You need to practice. Your background in "analoge music" doesn't help you at all if you keep frowning at digital music production. And when you think you've hit an impassable barrier, you need to practice more. Wasting time crying in a forum doesn't change a thing, other than the fact that equally inept crybabies can form a drum circle with you to preach to the choir.

Seriously, move on. I can add it to the forum rules if needed. Drop the reason sound debate. It's dumb founded.
Kenni Andruszkow
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Tryggvasson
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Joined: 11 Dec 2017

11 Dec 2017

FlowerSoldier wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Dang it. I was mostly looking for clarification...
Some of my favourite recordings are from the Sex Pistols.
A good musical idea shines through no matter how it is recorded. That is what is most important. A strong idea.
That's just like, my opinion though.
I agree. But it comes through through sound. Actually that would be a good challenge. Try to obtain Steve Jones' guitar sound in Reason, with stock plugins. And then with everything you want. And try to make your mix sound like that. If you manage to do that, I will literally kiss your ass. And then you'll see what I mean.

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Nobody's butthurt, but all this crying that we've seen over the many years this has been a topic spells "inept" - It's fine that some people can't get the sound of reason they expect their songs to have, but it's mainly a PEBKAC issue. It's the same crying you get from other inept engineers in other DAW forums.

It's just pointless. Throwing technical terms into the equation to rise above the "Rookie label" doesn't help or change anything. Talk about transients all you want. Timbre, high frequencies, all that jazz. It doesn't change a thing, whatsoever.

You need to practice. Your background in "analoge music" doesn't help you at all if you keep frowning at digital music production. And when you think you've hit an impassable barrier, you need to practice more. Wasting time crying in a forum doesn't change a thing, other than the fact that equally inept crybabies can form a drum circle with you to preach to the choir.

Seriously, move on. I can add it to the forum rules if needed. Drop the reason sound debate. It's dumb founded.
The difference is that in other DAWs you also hear great mixes. In Reason, you don't even hear good ones, on stock plugins. The other difference is just if you change plugins, your mixes magically improve, as inept as you were two hours before, as I said earlier. So it's probably not that.

Actually it's the polite form of "most likely it's not that". Show me one of your great mixes please. One, that 's all I want to hear. One better than the inept level of us, earthlings.

And don't worry about my practicing. I've been doing that for years, and will continue to do that. And I've making noticeable progress, after noticeable progress. And haven't managed to get anything to standard till I changed plugins. And then it happened in a few hours, not years of progress. THAT's what I'm saying.

And I won't add anymore. Somebody wants to really talk about the platform - the plugins for me is pretty much an ended topic, they're crap, except for the synths, and a couple of others - I'd be happy to hear opinions, that would be a useful discussion. Just repeating how great Reason sounds without some examples that actually sound like - I don't know, take your favourite big label commercial grade release and compare it, it's a fairly easy process - wouldn't.
Last edited by Tryggvasson on 11 Dec 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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jayhosking
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
These are facts. Anybody want to check it for themsleves, do it and see what you think.
Just did. Again. They are not facts.
Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
I would expect people to note how the platform sounds. I would expect them to talk about. I wouldn't expect anyone to get butthurt. This seems inexplicable to me.
On the one hand, you're calling for discussion on the topic. On the other hand, you're saying it's inconceivable that a group of users who willingly choose Reason as their primary music-making software should disagree with you that Reason sounds like shit. Consider your audience.

I have heard just as many good mixes from Reason as anything else, and just as many bad mixes from Reason as anything else.

Reason sounds great to me. The Reason workflow is awesome to me. There are many small things I would change and improve, but the sound and the workflow are what keep me here.

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Nobody's butthurt, but all this crying that we've seen over the many years this has been a topic spells "inept" - It's fine that some people can't get the sound of reason they expect their songs to have, but it's mainly a PEBKAC issue. It's the same crying you get from other inept engineers in other DAW forums.

It's just pointless. Throwing technical terms into the equation to rise above the "Rookie label" doesn't help or change anything. Talk about transients all you want. Timbre, high frequencies, all that jazz. It doesn't change a thing, whatsoever.

You need to practice. Your background in "analoge music" doesn't help you at all if you keep frowning at digital music production. And when you think you've hit an impassable barrier, you need to practice more. Wasting time crying in a forum doesn't change a thing, other than the fact that equally inept crybabies can form a drum circle with you to preach to the choir.

Seriously, move on. I can add it to the forum rules if needed. Drop the reason sound debate. It's dumb founded.
The difference is that in other DAWs you also hear great mixes. In Reason, you don't even hear good ones, on stock plugins. The other difference is just if you change plugins, your mixes magically improve, as inept as you were two hours before, as I said earlier. So it's probably not that.
All I see is assumptions and baseless claims. Do you have anything to back up those nonsensical claims of yours?

What you're basically saying is that all music released using native devices in Reason sound shit, without actually being able to identify released music that were produced and finalized in Reason.

See, the big difference between inept whiners and everybody else is that the whiners talk a lot about Reason, while all the others just spend time working in Reason, releasing music, carrying on with their business, getting past the things Reason aren't good at, just like people are doing in, for example, pro tools (like the horrible sequencing implementation).

And, when they're done working on their music and release it, they start working on new songs, rinse repeat. Hell, I even know a guy who STILL puts out music done in Reason 3, and he's regarded as one of the very best in the genre.
Kenni Andruszkow
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Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
The difference is that in other DAWs you also hear great mixes. In Reason, you don't even hear good ones, on stock plugins. The other difference is just if you change plugins, your mixes magically improve, as inept as you were two hours before, as I said earlier. So it's probably not that.
All I see is assumptions and baseless claims. Do you have anything to back up those nonsensical claims of yours?

What you're basically saying is that all music released using native devices in Reason sound shit, without actually being able to identify released music that were produced and finalized in Reason.

See, the big difference between inept whiners and everybody else is that the whiners talk a lot about Reason, while all the others just spend time working in Reason, releasing music, carrying on with their business, getting past the things Reason aren't good at, just like people are doing in, for example, pro tools (like the horrible sequencing implementation).

And, when they're done working on their music and release it, they start working on new songs, rinse repeat. Hell, I even know a guy who STILL puts out music done in Reason 3, and he's regarded as one of the very best in the genre.
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap. Probably dozens, if not hundreds. Maybe that identifies it enough.

Please don't call me inept. It's very easy to return the favour - and you being an admin, shouldn't give a free-to-insult people pass - particularly with using as examples mixes that sound like that, which you also, by a particular quirk of fate, think sound good.

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
All I see is assumptions and baseless claims. Do you have anything to back up those nonsensical claims of yours?

What you're basically saying is that all music released using native devices in Reason sound shit, without actually being able to identify released music that were produced and finalized in Reason.

See, the big difference between inept whiners and everybody else is that the whiners talk a lot about Reason, while all the others just spend time working in Reason, releasing music, carrying on with their business, getting past the things Reason aren't good at, just like people are doing in, for example, pro tools (like the horrible sequencing implementation).

And, when they're done working on their music and release it, they start working on new songs, rinse repeat. Hell, I even know a guy who STILL puts out music done in Reason 3, and he's regarded as one of the very best in the genre.
Maybe i wasn't very clear in my explanation. EVERY SINGLE MIX I heard in Reason sounds like crap. Probably dozens, if not hundreds. Maybe that identifies it enough.

Please don't call me inept. It's very easy to return the favour - and you being an admin, shouldn't give a free-to-insult people pass - particularly with mix examples that sound like that, which you also, by a particular quirk of fate, think sound good.
I'm not - Let me remind you, it's not about the words being used, it's about the intentions. You and I are no different, your trolling attempt is easy to call out. By stating the things you do, you and I are basically saying the same thing. The only difference is I'm restricting my criticism to only point at you, while you target everybody. And yes, you're inept. You must be. The claims you make makes that very clear to even the most average Reason user on this board. If you had just taken 2 seconds to use the search function, you'd see we've been over this a gazillion times. With no result. There's been literally dozens of your kind of people here to make dumbfounded claims with NOTHING to back them up.

That's why, I as an admin, took a bit of time out of my busy schedule to hand you the same tasteless crap you're serving everybody else here. Our intentions are the same.
Kenni Andruszkow
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avasopht
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11 Dec 2017

Tryggvasson wrote:
11 Dec 2017
I truly don't understand that. It's an observation. Which could be taken into account - I mean we all have the interest of sounding our best, not of getting butthurt, like we're part of some untouchable cult, or something, and I've just cursed the mother of it - and dogma and condescendence just raise eyebrows, far from solving it, maybe arguments and knowledge, if someone has some on the topic of the sound platform, do.
Just so we are 100% clear, I can happily use whatever the hell DAW is available. I have committed to Logic for a year straight. Hardware for a year straight. I've used various other DAWs. So we can end all talk of butthurt when it comes to me. But that will also be the case for pretty much everyone else here.

Right. Now we've got that out of the way let's get to the issues you raised.

The harshness you heard was solely down to engineering choices, not the DAW. His drums didn't seem to have any reverb. Other than that DAWs don't do anything special to the sound of samples themselves. If you want the sound to change you have to choose your effects. If you load up a drum sample and play it back, it will play back exactly the same in every single DAW. If it sounds thin, it is because the sample was thin.

Ableton does not sound any better or worse than ProTools. If you choose the same plugins you get the exact same end result. There is no magic in mixers, analogue or digital.

What analogue mixers do do is add a little THD and cross talk. You kind of don't want that, but if you do then add white noise and colour to the flavour of your desired mixer.

It helps a great deal when you have perspecuity of engineering processes. When you can't you will find yourself looking for over simplistic explanations, such as "sound engine," etc. Analogue vs digital, etc. When you can identify exactly what the difference is, you may just find that the difference was a default, or just a difference not in quality but just an arbitrary difference you associated with quality because it was different and you didn't have an alternative box for it.

When you stop relying on the unknown differences between the DAWs and start taking responsibility for your engineering decisions you will become a much better engineer.

If merely changing an MClass EQ for a plugin EQ makes it sound "better," it just means you were not using the EQ properly (solely because of how EQs and filters work).

Having a "digital" sound is a misnomer. A sound has a sound. Digital simply fails to alter that sound.

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RoryM0
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11 Dec 2017

Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
That's why, I as an admin, took a bit of time out of my busy schedule to hand you the same tasteless crap you're serving everybody else here. Our intentions are the same.
Massive respect going out to Kenni. Calling it.

EdGrip
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11 Dec 2017

I was watching this the other night.

Image

Cracking film. "OH MY GOOOOOOOOD!"
Classic.

avasopht
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11 Dec 2017

RoryM0 wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
That's why, I as an admin, took a bit of time out of my busy schedule to hand you the same tasteless crap you're serving everybody else here. Our intentions are the same.
Massive respect going out to Kenni. Calling it.
Yep.

Tryggvasson
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11 Dec 2017

Kenni wrote:
11 Dec 2017
Tryggvasson wrote:
I'm not. And yes, you're inept. You must be.
You're not, but you are - you're just awesome.

And why am i a troll, just cause you don't agree with what I am saying? Do I need your permission to say my piece or else you'll label me, how does this work?

[/quote]The claims you make makes that very clear to even the most average Reason user on this board. If you had just taken 2 seconds to use the search function, you'd see we've been over this a gazillion times. With no result. There's been literally dozens of your kind of people here to make dumbfounded claims with NOTHING to back them up.[/quote]

Actually you got it backwards. I have given very clear explanations on what I found my opinion on. It is you who is just offering lables and insults, in return, and not much else then stating the topic should end, cause you just feel it should.

[/quote]That's why, I as an admin, took a bit of time out of my busy schedule to hand you the same tasteless crap you're serving everybody else here.[/quote]

Please don't upset your busy schedule. I don't need the favour, nor have i called for it.

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Kenni
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11 Dec 2017

You did, in fact, call for it. You just didn't do your homework well enough to realize. Take some time to think that through. :)
Kenni Andruszkow
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