Reason 10 too slow with VST

[Adabler]

Thanks for the Glitch Free link. Very interesting and useful.

This is the relevant quote from Glitch Free for this thread:

Many software packages however also provide the option to process audio as 64-bit audio
samples, providing an even higher degree of accuracy.
The reason for using 64-bit audio over 32-bit audio is the same as for using a higher sample
rate – to maintain accuracy and to prevent loss of quality when processing audio through a
long chain of effects.
As far as the processor is concerned there’s practically no difference in performance when
comparing 32 and 64-bit audio processing.
However, if you’re using VST plugins, not all plugins support 64-bit samples. If you’ve
configured your audio program to use 64-bit audio and you use a plugin that only supports
32-bit audio the host program will need to down convert the samples to 32-bit before sending
them to the plugin and then up convert the result back to 64-bit. There are two problems
here – you’ve lost the audio quality you were trying to maintain by using 64-bit audio but
more importantly you’ve introduced two extra steps in the audio pipeline (i.e: more work to
do).
Normally the cost of these conversions are fairly transparent and you’d hardly notice any
performance loss, but it’s something to be aware of.

• Since all plugins support 32-bit samples, only enable 64-bit audio processing if you
really need it.

• For live performance you almost certainly don’t need 64-bit audio quality.

• If you do use 64-bit audio check that the majority of the plugins you’ll be using support
64-bit audio.

[WongoTheSane]

This !

These two fixes, disabling the nvidia hd audio driver and windows indexing service, are only two of over 30 in a document online concerning optimizing your pc for music production. I believe it's called 'glitch' or something...just google 'glitch pds music production' or something similar, you'll find it. Most complete guide out there imo...also disabling core parking for windows users is a must. Even win10 users. In win10, some have it disabled by default but others don't weirdly enough.

EDIT : it's called 'glitch free'

O'really: viewtopic.php?p=366992#p366992

Thanks for the link!

[33db]

It’s really weird that some people are having problems with specs higher than mine. I’m on a laptop (i7 4700mq 12gb) and I can run a bunch of Kontakts, Europas, Grains, POD Farms, etc. in a project. Usually at around 128 samples. So I know it’s possible because I’m doing it all the time. There’s gotta be some other factor at work here. We should assemble as much data as we can on it (project specs, hardware, software, etc.) and try to nail it down.

What operating system?

[33db]

OK I got that "glitchfree" PDF and did several of the things listed on it, including no core parking for the CPU, disabling all other audio drivers but the Komplete Audio 6 I'm using, reduced the eye candy, did all the power settings suggested, and set a fixed pagefile size.
I also got and ran Latencymon after the changes, The 2 drivers with the highest latency (according to latencymon) were the directx driver and tcp/ip driver respectively running at 312 microseconds and 112 microseconds.

In other words no problem, as those results are microseconds and the audio interface is dealing in milliseconds.
Additionally I optimized for background processes rather than programs, which seems counter intuitive, but read the glitchfree PDF and it makes some sense.
With the changes I made I am able to run 3 instances of Exhale and 3 other tracks, where as before running 1 instance of exhale and 3 other tracks prior to changes caused issues.
So a definite improvement, and that means Reaper should run even better as well.

Thanks for the tip on glitchfree, and I'm led to believe that ideally your computer used for audio recording should do just that and nothing else.
For me I also game, so unfortunately this system has to do 2 things.
https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

[AttenuationHz]

Running LatencyMon there now. It is reporting my system is having difficulty handling real time audio and other tasks...

A few questions. How should I be running LatencyMon should I start monitoring when Reason is open/project playing, either/both. simulates audio process, so no. Run it with nothing open just LM? How long should it be ran for?

[WongoTheSane]

Running LatencyMon there now. It is reporting my system is having difficulty handling real time audio and other tasks...

A few questions. How should I be running LatencyMon should I start monitoring when Reason is open/project playing, either/both. simulates audio process, so no. Run it with nothing open just LM? How long should it be ran for?

Nothing open, as you noted, and it should run a few minutes. The point is to catch every interrupt that might interfere; some of them may happen only every 5 or 10 minutes for instance, so chances are if you run it 5 to 10 minutes you'll catch most of these. There are some processes that only launch once a day or once a week (typically, the windows clock syncing, or scheduled tasks for instance); I would argue that these happen infrequently enough that you can ignore them (if you're not in a live setting). Most of the problematic ISR/DPC calls are very frequent (in the seconds/minutes range at most).

[AttenuationHz]

Running LatencyMon there now. It is reporting my system is having difficulty handling real time audio and other tasks...

A few questions. How should I be running LatencyMon should I start monitoring when Reason is open/project playing, either/both. simulates audio process, so no. Run it with nothing open just LM? How long should it be ran for?

Nothing open, as you noted, and it should run a few minutes. The point is to catch every interrupt that might interfere; some of them may happen only every 5 or 10 minutes for instance, so chances are if you run it 5 to 10 minutes you'll catch most of these. There are some processes that only launch once a day or once a week (typically, the windows clock syncing, or scheduled tasks for instance); I would argue that these happen infrequently enough that you can ignore them (if you're not in a live setting). Most of the problematic ISR/DPC calls are very frequent (in the seconds/minutes range at most).

Had it running for about 55min. Lots of pagefaults from MSoffice click to run. Going set that to manual or disable and test again. Also going to disable throttling in the BIOS/check for bios update. Then run again. One thing I did notice is my CPU is running @40Mhz don't know what to make of that. 4.0 Ghz i7, is it the clock rate or something as opposed to clock speed.

There probably ought to be a thread for optimising for Reason! If one tool can detect problems it would be interesting to see what else is available to help optimise.

[WongoTheSane]

Nothing open, as you noted, and it should run a few minutes. The point is to catch every interrupt that might interfere; some of them may happen only every 5 or 10 minutes for instance, so chances are if you run it 5 to 10 minutes you'll catch most of these. There are some processes that only launch once a day or once a week (typically, the windows clock syncing, or scheduled tasks for instance); I would argue that these happen infrequently enough that you can ignore them (if you're not in a live setting). Most of the problematic ISR/DPC calls are very frequent (in the seconds/minutes range at most).

Had it running for about 55min. Lots of pagefaults from MSoffice click to run. Going set that to manual or disable and test again. Also going to disable throttling in the BIOS/check for bios update. Then run again. One thing I did notice is my CPU is running @40Mhz don't know what to make of that. 4.0 Ghz i7, is it the clock rate or something as opposed to clock speed.

There probably ought to be a thread for optimising for Reason! If one tool can detect problems it would be interesting to see what else is available to help optimise.

It think you pretty much linked to it already!

I wouldn't worry about ClickToRun, unless you have a non-SSD hard disk. Pagefaults are swaps to/from memory but they're not very high priority-wise. The throttling thing might be more crucial, but if your reported CPU speed is the one in the "Stats" tab, I wouldn't worry either: mine is 1 MHz (!) measured (reported is correct: 4008 MHz, no throttling, no speed step or anything). Do you have only one audio controller enabled in your Device Manager?

[seqoi]

All of these advices are useless (but does show superb community here) because OP have a point. It is not down to ASIO (it could be sometimes), down to computer settings (it could be sometimes) or down to user (it could be sometimes).

Please read other threads. There are PLENTY of experienced people which already noticed poor reason VST performance (not talking about Reason global performance just VST). Not only that but there is a lot of posted examples.

I am talking my experience here. Completely SAME setup, same buffer, same confifgurations, same samples in session, same VSTi sounc - Reason behave as much as x4 worse then ANY competition. There is no magical settings, HT on off, lala land option - Reason simply behave worse and i got it confirmed. Not only that but Propellerheads themselves CONFIRMED issue and told they are working on it. I have seen Mattias mentioned it several times now (on another forum).

So take your seat, make music - they will fix it.

[SA Studio]

I spent a lot of money on a ridiculously beefy PC, and it can't handle more than two of my favourite VSTs at once in Reason, it's as if something is wrong.

Youre by no means incorrect. Please talk to anyone else running a business using multiple DAWs and is familiar with the DAW industry worldwide.

I actually still use multiple DAWs all the time for my small business. The comparison between other DAWs on the exact same hardware currently is very, very bad. As much I as I'd like to make productions with VST's in Reason, I simply hit the ceiling MUCH faster than in any other DAW.

Jagwah, Reason needs immense optimization. On Facebook, I regularly post videos of me mixing various projects and most all of my videos these days sadly have to be done in Reaper. Not that Reaper is bad, it's amazing with a jaw-dropping capacity on even meager hardware, it's just that I'd rather be using Reason.

If I had my way, Props would confer with Cockos (the Reaper team who also developed WinAmp long ago) and Props would improve DSP efficiency in Reason.

Lastly, I still see videos all the time of people using stock Reason devices, and RE's too, making incredible productions! By no means is VST the "ticket to good productions", that's not the concern. You can still produce AMAZING music without VST's.

I'm really hoping to see MARKED improvement in the next version or I fear Reason is going to slip through the cracks.

[AttenuationHz]

I spent a lot of money on a ridiculously beefy PC, and it can't handle more than two of my favourite VSTs at once in Reason, it's as if something is wrong.

Youre by no means incorrect. Please talk to anyone else running a business using multiple DAWs and is familiar with the DAW industry worldwide.

I actually still use multiple DAWs all the time for my small business. The comparison between other DAWs on the exact same hardware currently is very, very bad. As much I as I'd like to make productions with VST's in Reason, I simply hit the ceiling MUCH faster than in any other DAW.

Jagwah, Reason needs immense optimization. On Facebook, I regularly post videos of me mixing various projects and most all of my videos these days sadly have to be done in Reaper. Not that Reaper is bad, it's amazing with a jaw-dropping capacity on even meager hardware, it's just that I'd rather be using Reason.

If I had my way, Props would confer with Cockos (the Reaper team who also developed WinAmp long ago) and Props would improve DSP efficiency in Reason.

Lastly, I still see videos all the time of people using stock Reason devices, and RE's too, making incredible productions! By no means is VST the "ticket to good productions", that's not the concern. You can still produce AMAZING music without VST's.

I'm really hoping to see MARKED improvement in the next version or I fear Reason is going to slip through the cracks.

You're not alone there. Imaging Props and Cock o s merging as a company. Damn that would be a great day. Reaper is stupidly great for performance.

[Psuper]

Youre by no means incorrect. Please talk to anyone else running a business using multiple DAWs and is familiar with the DAW industry worldwide.

I actually still use multiple DAWs all the time for my small business. The comparison between other DAWs on the exact same hardware currently is very, very bad. As much I as I'd like to make productions with VST's in Reason, I simply hit the ceiling MUCH faster than in any other DAW.

Jagwah, Reason needs immense optimization. On Facebook, I regularly post videos of me mixing various projects and most all of my videos these days sadly have to be done in Reaper. Not that Reaper is bad, it's amazing with a jaw-dropping capacity on even meager hardware, it's just that I'd rather be using Reason.

If I had my way, Props would confer with Cockos (the Reaper team who also developed WinAmp long ago) and Props would improve DSP efficiency in Reason.

Lastly, I still see videos all the time of people using stock Reason devices, and RE's too, making incredible productions! By no means is VST the "ticket to good productions", that's not the concern. You can still produce AMAZING music without VST's.

I'm really hoping to see MARKED improvement in the next version or I fear Reason is going to slip through the cracks.

You're not alone there. Imaging Props and Cock o s merging as a company. Damn that would be a great day. Reaper is stupidly great for performance.

But the absolute greatest DAW available for customizing , yet continuing insane performance. Plus... it's cheap, consistent more-than=fair pricing, and top-notch quality stuff.

https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php

Have a look at those 'incremental' updates, so you can get a gauge of how things should be done when you are working with your DAW audience.

[chaosroyale]

There have been a lot of threads like this recently and a lots of Reason "fans" (and I'm a fan too, more or less, so don't take it personal) start talking about things like "whats your exact setup", "try reducing graphics resolution", "fiddle with your audio drivers" and so on, which is completely missing the point and seems like a blind spot similar to "I'm sure Props are working on such-and-such for a future version which never comes"

Reason has terrible performance with VST compared to other DAWs *on the same PC with the same setup*. It's not the case that Reaper runs eg. 20 instances of Kontakt on your PC and Reason only runs eg. 4 instances because you need to tweak some tiny setting on your 3D graphics card and suddenly Reason will get similar performance to Reaper. Maybe all your optimizations might get you ONE extra instance of Kontakt but that's not what we are talking about.

People consistently report several multiples the number of VSTs running in other DAWs compared to Reason.

One RE developer (maybe Normen?) explained that part of the cause is because Reason does everything in a particular chunk size in order to make CV implementation work - and of course CV is necessary for Reason so that cannot be helped. Even, so I very much doubt this slows things down by 400 percent, and if there IS a limit to the performance then it has to be addressed for the future survival of Reason.

The 2 most realistic and popular suggestions are:

1.Add a Freeze option to ease the load. This is a band-aid but it would be a nice feature anyway especially for people on older machines.

2.Optimize the core engine. <- This, basically.

In other words if Reason 11 is more kalimbas and drum samples then Props have really lost the plot.

[sdst]

Reason 10 need some improvements with vst, prop is working on that

meanwhile I am very happy I also have Reason 8 installed, the most stable DAW ever

[Oquasec]

Got Versions 8, 9 & 10 so far.
Ima just keep using vsts in Cubase if I want to look at vsts again tbh.
Props made a workflow that fit perfectly for what I needed to do. Integrated vsts that can be toggled on and off, and a complete set of modules that is a part of Reason's core design as the wooden rackmount it has always aimed to emulate in digital form without much hurdle and inconvenience.

[EdGrip]

I was very surprised when I tried Repro-5 in Reaper the other day, with HQ (8x oversampling), and my computer didn't even seem to notice.
In Reason, one instance of Repro-5 can cause crackles or even a "computer to slow" without HQ enabled.
Hopefully at some point I'll see how many instances of Repro-5 I can run at the same time in Reaper.

[avasopht]

One RE developer (maybe Normen?) explained that part of the cause is because Reason does everything in a particular chunk size in order to make CV implementation work - and of course CV is necessary for Reason so that cannot be helped. Even, so I very much doubt this slows things down by 400 percent, and if there IS a limit to the performance then it has to be addressed for the future survival of Reason.

Actually smaller block sizes has exactly that effect. It's why we have batch processing in the first place. If you reduced it to 1 sample it would slow things down by a factor of anything from 1000% to 100,000%.

Basically every time a plugin has to produce a block of audio your CPU has to load memory into its 'cache'. The smaller the block size, the higher the total performance hit for switching. On top of that there will be overhead costs for the plugin as well such as retrieving parameters, the cost of being invoked, the cost of invoking its own functions that now cannot run in batches.

... lots of Reason "fans" (and I'm a fan too, more or less, so don't take it personal) start talking about things like "whats your exact setup", "try reducing graphics resolution

This is nothing to do with being a fan and all about experience. I've been fiddling with hardware and DAWs for a good 20 years, and Reason for 15 (I'm not Reason exclusive).

The whole, "what's your exact setup," is all about TROUBLESHOOTING. It happens far more often than you seem to be aware of, so it's got nothing to do with being a fan who is blind to any issues. If you try to prescribe without diagnosing, you're doing it wrong.

Also some workarounds such as, "try reducing graphics resolution," are not about ignoring the problem of performance or whatnot at higher resolutions, it's just plain PRAGMATISM. You can either sit there being unable to use your application, or you can just reduce your resolution. You can want better performance at full resolution and be using it at lower resolutions while it is still a problem. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[normen]

Actually smaller block sizes has exactly that effect.

*strongly* depends on the algorithms used in the plugin.

[seqoi]

Yeah what avasopht said - sometimes these things does help and pragmatism of this forum and fans is really very welcome. Honestly.

But at this point we can all agree that Reason need VST optimization - it is like x5 times worse then any other daw but Propellerhead said they are working on it, and late show and conspiracy theory i saw at KVR that: Propellerheads intentionally crippled VST performance to favor RE and to not reveal how RE is poor when compared to VST is way of the mark and utter nonsense - IMHO.

I just hope PH will release this VST optimization sooner then Reason v11.

[SA Studio]

Yeah what avasopht said - sometimes these things does help and pragmatism of this forum and fans is really very welcome. Honestly.

But at this point we can all agree that Reason need VST optimization - it is like x5 times worse then any other daw but Propellerhead said they are working on it, and late show and conspiracy theory i saw at KVR that: Propellerheads intentionally crippled VST performance to favor RE and to not reveal how RE is poor when compared to VST is way of the mark and utter nonsense - IMHO.

I just hope PH will release this VST optimization sooner then Reason v11.

Well, as far as the conspiracy theory, I have to disagree because of this: Any working professional doesn't see the bad VST performance as something that makes RE's look good, it's just something that makes Reason look bad. I don't think Props limited VST's in Reason so the 10 people who are insanely loyal RE users can feel good about the struggling platform.

There is no benefit, industry wise, to be trying to make RE's look good compared to VST. That battle was lost years and years ago. So that conspiracy theory just doesn't hold up. There's so few RE users compared to VST users, trying to make RE's look good by crippling VST's wouldn't make a difference, especially in 2017. You'd just be killing your brand out of spite if you did that. I didn't see the KVR thread, but I don't agree with it either.

[EdGrip]

That conspiracy theory = obviously nonsense.

[Gorgon]

But at this point we can all agree that Reason need VST optimization - it is like x5 times worse then any other daw but Propellerhead said they are working on it, and late show and conspiracy theory i saw at KVR that: Propellerheads intentionally crippled VST performance to favor RE and to not reveal how RE is poor when compared to VST is way of the mark and utter nonsense - IMHO.

I just hope PH will release this VST optimization sooner then Reason v11.

LOL. Crazy KVR people.

[avasopht]

LOL. Crazy KVR people.

Conspiracy theories seem all the rage these days.

[normen]

Conspiracy theories seem all the rage these days.

They always were At one point my guess was that because people are so ashamed of what they believed at some point they try to hide it but by that they in turn give it that "occult knowledge" touch again (occult literally means "hidden"). Like you can find so many out of print books with the most outrageous theories from all ages.

[33db]

I'm back with one last addition to this thread, after a lot of experimentation with a variety of VST's including Native Instruments Komplete 11, some freebies, and various synths I've bought over the years.
I decided that while Outputs Exhale runs terrible in Reason, most of the VST's I have either run better better than Exhale or have no issue at all.
I think in this particular instance, Exhale is the issue, not Reason.