Reason 1.0 vs 10.0 - visual comparison

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Psuper
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Post 03 Dec 2017

I don't know a single Reason user who would like to see Reasons style changed (hardware-like interface). No one has ever suggested it in the 10+ years I've been writing about it, no one ever will. So lets take that off the table it's never been about that

Many subscribe to KISS, I prefer my own which defines what "simple" actually is. MILE: Make it Logical/Efficient. My own acronym I created while working on UIs for helpdesk software in the 90s.

There's plenty of ways Propellerhead can make their UI simple, logical, and efficient without sacrificing it's unique flavor or breaking the development bank. Should Propellerhead ever show a desire to do so, I'll be glad to offer my experience on how to achieve just that, as I'm certain others would.

However, as I mentioned plenty of times, I don't think Propellerhead have the expertise internally, don't want to hire the expertise externally, or simply have no desire to fix it.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

EdGrip
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Post 03 Dec 2017

Too late. It's on the table. I put it on the table. Can't put that genie back in the bottle off the table now. It's all over the table like roast dinner on a plate. On a table.

EdGrip
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Post 03 Dec 2017

It's tabled.

madmacman
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Post 03 Dec 2017

Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
However, as I mentioned plenty of times, I don't think Propellerhead have the expertise internally, don't want to hire the expertise externally, or simply have no desire to fix it.
To be fair: It took Ableton 10 incarnations of "Live" to switch from bitmap to vector based UI elements. And that's roughly the same timeframe as for Reason (Ableton Live 1.0 released in 2001)

This is by no means an excuse. But Propellerhead are not the only black sheep in DAW business. The competitors also haven't done their homework so far in many ways.

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Psuper
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Post 03 Dec 2017

EdGrip wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Too late. It's on the table. I put it on the table. Can't put that genie back in the bottle off the table now. It's all over the table like roast dinner on a plate. On a table.
lol noted!

-----

@ madmacman Sure I get that when talking about the GUI, and know you aren't giving them a pass. However Propellerhead is not on that GUI ball, never said they would be, yet also one of the worst initial interfaces for smooth workflow (as a DAW) to begin with and it hasn't changed.

More importantly, there's way more considerations as to 'why?'. Just compare any well-known DAW patch notes to Reason patch notes throughout any given year, and you'll see a huge disparity between the massive amount competitors push out in a year of tweaks and updates versus propellerheads paltry offers. In fact, aside from Audio in then VST, there's been almost no updates to the performance, GUI, options, and back-end worth mentioning.

Again, we could write masses amounts of critiques, I genuinely feel it's a waste of time -- they aren't listening. Or are, and ignoring...

... I always hold out hope though, hence my participation and support.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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EnochLight
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Post 03 Dec 2017

Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Sure I get that when talking about the GUI, and know you aren't giving them a pass. However Propellerhead is not on that GUI ball, never said they would be, yet also one of the worst initial interfaces for smooth workflow (as a DAW) to begin with and it hasn't changed.
I'm not giving them a pass either (hence my continual complaints about low resolution bitmaps for all of the devices and no zoom), but this is just plain wrong - and I strongly disagree with your assessment. Reason's interface workflow is literally its unique selling point - no other DAW has it. You either get it, or you don't. No big deal. In fact, it's smooth as hell, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think anyone here is complaining about Reason's interface workflow except you. Unless I'm misunderstanding your statement?
Win 10 | Reason 11 Suite |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Ensoniq SQ1 Plus | Korg Minilogue XD

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Psuper
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Post 03 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Sure I get that when talking about the GUI, and know you aren't giving them a pass. However Propellerhead is not on that GUI ball, never said they would be, yet also one of the worst initial interfaces for smooth workflow (as a DAW) to begin with and it hasn't changed.
I'm not giving them a pass either (hence my continual complaints about low resolution bitmaps for all of the devices and no zoom), but this is just plain wrong - and I strongly disagree with your assessment. Reason's interface workflow is literally its unique selling point - no other DAW has it. You either get it, or you don't. No big deal. In fact, it's smooth as hell, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think anyone here is complaining about Reason's interface workflow except you. Unless I'm misunderstanding your statement?
Reason's interface workflow is literally its unique selling point when it comes to the fancy stuff - hardware emulation, racks, wires, etc. I already stated that myself plenty of times, it's great.

However Reason wasn't even a DAW until it added Audio in 2011 - that's almost 11 years of it being an instrument only. People used it then as I assume most still use it today - as an instrument capable of being used as a Daw. As opposed to a DAW capable of playing an array of instruments. Big difference.

And until recently, VST - alone on an island of proprietary for 15+ years.

In 1080p or lower, you can't even put 1 rack and a few channels of the mixer interface up side-by-side without having silly scroll bars everywhere, grabbing the middle "bar" between the racks, constantly closing the browser to get more left-right room, paltry amount of vertical rack space, having to overlay the sequencer on the bottom, a cacophony of musical chairs with Reasons windows to get stuff done. Sorry man, but if someone uses Reason as much as I do, I fail to understand how they don't see these things. And I'm just scratching the surface on how inefficient the GUI is for actual music production.

I said it all before, and am not going to take the time to recreate what I spent plenty of time on in the past.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

michael.jaye
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Post 03 Dec 2017

I felt no need for an update to Reasons look until I just saw those renders. Now I want it! Although in the grand scheme of things, it's not high on my list of changes.

My biggest problem with Props' is the total lack of functional updates, especially since they are always championing 'fast workflow' and all that. Stuff like the Kilohearts Toolbox and Jiggery Pokery's cv and audio mergers/splitters are things that the Props themselves could've implemented easily as updated stock devices.

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EnochLight
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Post 03 Dec 2017

Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
In 1080p or lower, you can't even put 1 rack and a few channels of the mixer interface up side-by-side without having silly scroll bars everywhere, grabbing the middle "bar" between the racks, constantly closing the browser to get more left-right room, paltry amount of vertical rack space, having to overlay the sequencer on the bottom, a cacophony of musical chairs with Reasons windows to get stuff done. Sorry man, but if someone uses Reason as much as I do, I fail to understand how they don't see these things. And I'm just scratching the surface on how inefficient the GUI is for actual music production.
Perhaps you're doing it wrong? :lol: jk

I dunno, man - I use Reason at least several times a week, and I don't face any of the issues you describe - but my workstation is a dual monitor setup. That said, I don't have any issues switching between workflow windows (rack, sequencer, or mixer), and I always have at least 2 of those full screen at any given time.
I said it all before, and am not going to take the time to recreate what I spent plenty of time on in the past.
That's fair, but I think you may be in the minority when it comes to this.
Win 10 | Reason 11 Suite |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Ensoniq SQ1 Plus | Korg Minilogue XD

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EnochLight
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Post 03 Dec 2017

michael.jaye wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Stuff like the Kilohearts Toolbox and Jiggery Pokery's cv and audio mergers/splitters are things that the Props themselves could've implemented easily as updated stock devices.
Props are already getting enough shit for doing devices that RE devs made; not sure if that would be a wise step for them. ;)
Win 10 | Reason 11 Suite |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Ensoniq SQ1 Plus | Korg Minilogue XD

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Psuper
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Post 03 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
In 1080p or lower, you can't even put 1 rack and a few channels of the mixer interface up side-by-side without having silly scroll bars everywhere, grabbing the middle "bar" between the racks, constantly closing the browser to get more left-right room, paltry amount of vertical rack space, having to overlay the sequencer on the bottom, a cacophony of musical chairs with Reasons windows to get stuff done. Sorry man, but if someone uses Reason as much as I do, I fail to understand how they don't see these things. And I'm just scratching the surface on how inefficient the GUI is for actual music production.
Perhaps you're doing it wrong? :lol: jk

I dunno, man - I use Reason at least several times a week, and I don't face any of the issues you describe - but my workstation is a dual monitor setup. That said, I don't have any issues switching between workflow windows (rack, sequencer, or mixer), and I always have at least 2 of those full screen at any given time.
I said it all before, and am not going to take the time to recreate what I spent plenty of time on in the past.
That's fair, but I think you may be in the minority when it comes to this.
Perhaps if that minority is actually the overwhelming majority who run 1 monitor at 1080p!

I haven't been on a dedicated single monitor at 1080p for quite some time, but had been for many years - when I wrote up the mockup it was during 1024x 768 time - what an abysmal mess that was. Been through the gauntlet of monitor resolutions and 1440p is the sweet spot for 1 monitor, or two with the rack in portrait mode. Going full-steam 4k here on out, not looking back. I easily recall how insanely frustrating it is at lower resolutions, annoyed I have to get a 40" monitor to see in 4k.... and from responses in other threads I'm not alone in this frustration.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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EnochLight
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Post 03 Dec 2017

Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Going full-steam 4k here on out, not looking back. I easily recall how insanely frustrating it is at lower resolutions, annoyed I have to get a 40" monitor to see in 4k.... and from responses in other threads I'm not alone in this frustration.
I'm curious... If you're on a 40" 4K monitor, Windows should have recommended a 150% app scaling. Did it? I just hooked up my PC to a 40" 4K panel (the TV from our den), and Windows scaled everything to 150% - which doesn't look too bad, actually. Sure, it's not perfect - Reason looks a little "soft" (which is likely due to up-scaling with linear interpolation), but it's very usable.

I'm re-thinking my dual 1080p 27" panel approach. Might be time to go YUGE with a couple of 4K panels. :D :puf_smile: :lol:
Win 10 | Reason 11 Suite |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Ensoniq SQ1 Plus | Korg Minilogue XD

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Psuper
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Post 03 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Going full-steam 4k here on out, not looking back. I easily recall how insanely frustrating it is at lower resolutions, annoyed I have to get a 40" monitor to see in 4k.... and from responses in other threads I'm not alone in this frustration.
I'm curious... If you're on a 40" 4K monitor, Windows should have recommended a 150% app scaling. Did it? I just hooked up my PC to a 40" 4K panel (the TV from our den), and Windows scaled everything to 150% - which doesn't look too bad, actually. Sure, it's not perfect - Reason looks a little "soft" (which is likely due to up-scaling with linear interpolation), but it's very usable.

I'm re-thinking my dual 1080p 27" panel approach. Might be time to go YUGE with a couple of 4K panels. :D :puf_smile: :lol:
My soon-to-be-retired-to-the-kids DAW is Windows 7, 1440p. Both of which I prefer, as there is still no 120+hz 4k options and I hate Win10. But I can live with 60hz fake 120, and Windows 10 nlited for purely a DAW - just takes a lot more time cutting out all the bloat.

I dislike using multiple monitors, always preferred 1 optimized working screen. I have too small a 4k monitor, and the other is in our living room, so never bothered until now that I'm building a new dedicated daw and more customized music room. And for my physical setup, 40" 4k is ideal, I just don't appreciate knowing Reason needs it that size, and yet won't take advantage of it the way I'd like. Regardless, it will be much better than the 1080p and 1440p alternatives.
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full-of-life
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Post 04 Dec 2017

@EnochLight
Viewing Distance and genuine 4k content. There are limits to what the eye can perceive, so if you sit too far from your panel (the distance depending on the panel’s size), you won't be able to see all the detail in the image. While 4k UHD won't give you much of a benefit after a certain distance, it will always be better from up close. PHILIPS BDM4065UC 40" distance 4ft (1,22m) 3840x2160 DisplayPort 60Hz Windows will recommend a percentage but you can play around with the offerings to find the right balance. I got 125%

@Psuper Add Custom Resolutions on Windows 7, 8 - more information "enable Custom Resolutions" check the manual of your graphics card

Don't confuse pixel numbers with resolution!
If you mean that you can have a 4k UHD screen that's four times the size of an HD screen, then yes, it is quite literally four times better.
That's because there are four times the number of pixels. But how much better is the resolution? It's only two times.
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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 04 Dec 2017

Psuper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
EnochLight wrote:
03 Dec 2017


I'm curious... If you're on a 40" 4K monitor, Windows should have recommended a 150% app scaling. Did it? I just hooked up my PC to a 40" 4K panel (the TV from our den), and Windows scaled everything to 150% - which doesn't look too bad, actually. Sure, it's not perfect - Reason looks a little "soft" (which is likely due to up-scaling with linear interpolation), but it's very usable.

I'm re-thinking my dual 1080p 27" panel approach. Might be time to go YUGE with a couple of 4K panels. :D :puf_smile: :lol:
My soon-to-be-retired-to-the-kids DAW is Windows 7, 1440p. Both of which I prefer, as there is still no 120+hz 4k options and I hate Win10. But I can live with 60hz fake 120, and Windows 10 nlited for purely a DAW - just takes a lot more time cutting out all the bloat.

I dislike using multiple monitors, always preferred 1 optimized working screen. I have too small a 4k monitor, and the other is in our living room, so never bothered until now that I'm building a new dedicated daw and more customized music room. And for my physical setup, 40" 4k is ideal, I just don't appreciate knowing Reason needs it that size, and yet won't take advantage of it the way I'd like. Regardless, it will be much better than the 1080p and 1440p alternatives.
I run a 49" 4K at 100% scaling, looks perfect to me, in fact this screen goes with me if I take my laptop as I can't work on a smaller screen now.
Note my laptop only really moves when I go on holiday.

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Raveshaper
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Post 04 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Raveshaper wrote:
03 Dec 2017
Let's be real for a second. Reason uses simulated masking tape for its labels. Imitation tape and sharpied letters turned 90 degrees. Kids are learning on gear that has segmented displays and visual feedback. Whoever has actually labeled a mixing board with masking tape and sharpie since the late 90s, raise your hand.
Depends. Perhaps there should just be the "Reason X: Hans Zimmer Mixer Edition"? :puf_bigsmile:



Hans_Z.jpg
Good catch. It doesn't make sense to me because it seems like buying a car and then choosing to push the thing around instead of drive it, but i guess writing down where things are routed is more efficient than adjusting wires on those larger solid state boards. I would have thought that digital assignment would be onboard in a rig that size or maybe it's more to stay focused with so much in front of you?

Anyway, point taken. My original intent was: it's a computer. Why are we are we simulating having to turn our heads to the side to read the names of things in a computer. There's a lot about the aesthetic that doesn't make sense to me as a visual thinker and learner.

More scientifically precise infographics! Less clutter! Less squinting! Analysis of cable signals (scope view)!
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antic604

Post 04 Dec 2017

Assuming Props are not interested in up-rezzing the devices and making the interface zoomable, I'd want them to at least enable putting the Rack and Mixer side by side on one screen, with vertical divider. Whoever thought putting all 3 views on top of each is great idea - especially with that huge transport and two Windows bars up top - is still probably using a 4:3 monitor**, or a big 16:9 tilted 90 degrees...

If they'd enable that (Sequencer full screen, Rack+Mixer side-by-side full screen) then that would already be awesome for single screen / laptop users, as you'd only need to flick between two screens.

Image

Cherry on top would be if it was dynamic*, i.e. you click a device on a Rack and Mixer jumps to appropriate channel and its section.



* BTW, it still bugs me how I can't click anything in Sequencer to be transported to appropriate device or mixer channel... smh...

** you can laugh, but if you actually go to (https://www.propellerheads.se/en/reason) then the carousel of screens at the bottom is 4:3 :(

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esselfortium
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Post 04 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017


* BTW, it still bugs me how I can't click anything in Sequencer to be transported to appropriate device or mixer channel... smh...
Click on the left part of the sequencer where the track name is, it’ll take you right there and highlight it and everything.
Last edited by esselfortium on 04 Dec 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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Psuper
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Post 04 Dec 2017

full-of-life wrote:
04 Dec 2017
@EnochLight
Viewing Distance and genuine 4k content. There are limits to what the eye can perceive, so if you sit too far from your panel (the distance depending on the panel’s size), you won't be able to see all the detail in the image. While 4k UHD won't give you much of a benefit after a certain distance, it will always be better from up close. PHILIPS BDM4065UC 40" distance 4ft (1,22m) 3840x2160 DisplayPort 60Hz Windows will recommend a percentage but you can play around with the offerings to find the right balance. I got 125%

@Psuper Add Custom Resolutions on Windows 7, 8 - more information "enable Custom Resolutions" check the manual of your graphics card

Don't confuse pixel numbers with resolution!
If you mean that you can have a 4k UHD screen that's four times the size of an HD screen, then yes, it is quite literally four times better.
That's because there are four times the number of pixels. But how much better is the resolution? It's only two times.
I know, I've done the resolution and hz dance for quite some time too. It has more to do with not liking 60hz on a smaller 4k screen than smaller or scaled viewing. Plus my templates were built around 1080p, converted to 1440p and sitting at a comfy-eye 144hz on one monitor, knowing eventually I'd move to a larger 4k screen when the time is right for me, which is now.

If I weren't convinced props will never update their GUI or even core options (how hard is it to just add 4 more combinator rotary/buttons... seriously), I'd re-make the mockups to show exactly how much better it should be - but know it's a waste of time. I'm resigned to just using Reason as it is on 4k along with Reaper, and gravitating to whichever one feels the best over a couple weeks of using both.

I don't give Propellerhead the benefit of the doubt anymore, been on this "update yer DAW" broken record for way too long -- so many core things that needs done , a slew that could be done, and all way overdue. Will always love Reason, and frankly keep using it because of that love and familiarity. Yet Propellerhead isn't supporting the app or it's RE devs and users the way I think will keep the majority hooked, engaged, and excited for Reasons future. All the while other Daw Developers are packing up their patch notes every month with meaningful updates and long-term vision.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

antic604

Post 04 Dec 2017

esselfortium wrote:
04 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017


* BTW, it still bugs me how I can't click anything in Sequencer to be transported to appropriate device or mixer channel... smh...
Click on the left part of the sequencer where the track name is, it’ll take you right there and highlight it and everything.
Really?! It can't be that simple! Also, why wouldn't they expand the area to cover the device thumbnail as well? I'll have to test it when I'm home, because I though I clicked everywhere where it was making sense...

madmacman
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Post 04 Dec 2017

esselfortium wrote:
04 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017


* BTW, it still bugs me how I can't click anything in Sequencer to be transported to appropriate device or mixer channel... smh...
Click on the left part of the sequencer where the track name is, it’ll take you right there and highlight it and everything.
Is this a (hidden) new feature on R10? Or can you provide a screenshot marking the trigger zone? No luck here on R9.5 Mac - and I clicked everywhere, either.

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esselfortium
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Post 04 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017
esselfortium wrote:
04 Dec 2017


Click on the left part of the sequencer where the track name is, it’ll take you right there and highlight it and everything.
Really?! It can't be that simple! Also, why wouldn't they expand the area to cover the device thumbnail as well? I'll have to test it when I'm home, because I though I clicked everywhere where it was making sense...
Testing it now to be sure, it works anywhere on the sequencer's left column, including the thumbnail.

madmacman
Posts: 652
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 04 Dec 2017

esselfortium wrote:
04 Dec 2017
antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017


Really?! It can't be that simple! Also, why wouldn't they expand the area to cover the device thumbnail as well? I'll have to test it when I'm home, because I though I clicked everywhere where it was making sense...
Testing it now to be sure, it works anywhere on the sequencer's left column, including the thumbnail.
Got it! It only works if you are in single-window mode. But I usually work with separate windows for Rack/Mixer/Seq distributed over multiple desktops. And then the click doesn't work. :(

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esselfortium
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Post 04 Dec 2017

madmacman wrote:
04 Dec 2017
esselfortium wrote:
04 Dec 2017


Testing it now to be sure, it works anywhere on the sequencer's left column, including the thumbnail.
Got it! It only works if you are in single-window mode. But I usually work with separate windows for Rack/Mixer/Seq distributed over multiple desktops. And then the click doesn't work. :(
That's what I had thought as well, but I just tested it with the sequencer, rack, and mixer all split off to separate windows and it still worked. I'm running Reason 10 on Mac OS Sierra, fwiw.
Last edited by esselfortium on 04 Dec 2017, edited 1 time in total.

RandomSkratch
Posts: 431
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Post 04 Dec 2017

antic604 wrote:
04 Dec 2017
Assuming Props are not interested in up-rezzing the devices and making the interface zoomable, I'd want them to at least enable putting the Rack and Mixer side by side on one screen, with vertical divider. Whoever thought putting all 3 views on top of each is great idea - especially with that huge transport and two Windows bars up top - is still probably using a 4:3 monitor**, or a big 16:9 tilted 90 degrees...

If they'd enable that (Sequencer full screen, Rack+Mixer side-by-side full screen) then that would already be awesome for single screen / laptop users, as you'd only need to flick between two screens.

Image

Cherry on top would be if it was dynamic*, i.e. you click a device on a Rack and Mixer jumps to appropriate channel and its section.



* BTW, it still bugs me how I can't click anything in Sequencer to be transported to appropriate device or mixer channel... smh...

** you can laugh, but if you actually go to (https://www.propellerheads.se/en/reason) then the carousel of screens at the bottom is 4:3 :(
Wow that's a great idea for screen layout. I would like to add an option for the browser to be hideable and pop out when you mouse over to the left side (like some applications have pin/unpin windows).

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