MClass Compressor vs Rack Extension Compressors

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DonnieAlan
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21 Nov 2017

scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Sounds like you need some OTT in your life
OTT? What is that again?

DonnieAlan
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21 Nov 2017

mark999 wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Compressor plugin developers often use words like, "silky, smooth, authentic, legendary" etc etc, which which is why I expect to hear a difference between the Mclass and more expensive plugins. I mean, if something is SO GREAT, and so silky, and so smooth, and so legendary, it should be able to immediately hear the difference. When you touch rough concrete with your hands, then you touch pure silk, you can feel the difference. Perhaps the problem is that in the audio world, things that are barely audible are described with exaggerated claims to justify the cost. And a lot of people fall for placebo and start hearing things that are not there.
One thing you could do that might help you hear the differences is run a little experiment. Take a 1k test tone and put in on an audio track (1-2 seconds long is enough. Add a second one same length but at -20db. Now, add compression to that track noting your settings, and then print the results to a new audio track and compare the results. This will help you both see AND hear what the compressor is doing. Rinse and repeat with different settings on the compressor and with different compressors. This will help you get a good idea of what the different compressors are doing and how they change attack, release, knee, etc.

Then, rinse and repeat with two samples of the same kick drum, 1 -20db softer than the other, and compare. Repeat with a bass guitar sample. A vocal sample, etc. It will help you understand your compressors behaviors better. Just a suggestion.

scratchnsnifff
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21 Nov 2017

DonnieAlan wrote:
21 Nov 2017
scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Sounds like you need some OTT in your life
OTT? What is that again?
“Over the top” compression. I believe it was a preset for abletons multiband compressor setup. It became very popular but it was exclusive to ableton. So Steve Duda (the guy who made serum) mimicked it so everyone else could have some OTT in their life. Try splex, it does upward and downward compression. Which to my ears sounds the same as the beloved OTT. It makes things very very very much louder
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Data_Shrine
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21 Nov 2017

MClass sounds kinda grainy/ low definition to my ears. If I can, I'll use something else.

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Loque
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21 Nov 2017

scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Nov 2017
DonnieAlan wrote:
21 Nov 2017


OTT? What is that again?
“Over the top” compression. I believe it was a preset for abletons multiband compressor setup. It became very popular but it was exclusive to ableton. So Steve Duda (the guy who made serum) mimicked it so everyone else could have some OTT in their life. Try splex, it does upward and downward compression. Which to my ears sounds the same as the beloved OTT. It makes things very very very much louder
4Dyn can also do upward compression.
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theshoemaker
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21 Nov 2017

selig wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Also note that compressors are not known for having the same setting ranges - to actually get them set the same is sometimes difficult if not impossible due to different attack/release curves (ms per dB rates) and often due to lack of matching parameters on both. For example, how do you match the attack/release on compressors that don't have attack/release settings like the LA-2a style compressors, or match threshold on an 1176 style compressor, or the soft knee setting of a DBX style compressor.
Is someone aware of a summary of what the different compressors do? In the end I'm going to use them creatively, too but a rough overview like ... What attack/release times, whether it is a colouring or transparent comressor and what its primary use case has been intended for. I'm particularly interested with very short attack AND release times ... and the opposite long attack/release times
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Loque
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21 Nov 2017

theshoemaker wrote:
21 Nov 2017
selig wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Also note that compressors are not known for having the same setting ranges - to actually get them set the same is sometimes difficult if not impossible due to different attack/release curves (ms per dB rates) and often due to lack of matching parameters on both. For example, how do you match the attack/release on compressors that don't have attack/release settings like the LA-2a style compressors, or match threshold on an 1176 style compressor, or the soft knee setting of a DBX style compressor.
Is someone aware of a summary of what the different compressors do? In the end I'm going to use them creatively, too but a rough overview like ... What attack/release times, whether it is a colouring or transparent comressor and what its primary use case has been intended for. I'm particularly interested with very short attack AND release times ... and the opposite long attack/release times
For short attack and release you may take a look at Lotus.
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selig
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21 Nov 2017

Loque wrote:
scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Nov 2017
“Over the top” compression. I believe it was a preset for abletons multiband compressor setup. It became very popular but it was exclusive to ableton. So Steve Duda (the guy who made serum) mimicked it so everyone else could have some OTT in their life. Try splex, it does upward and downward compression. Which to my ears sounds the same as the beloved OTT. It makes things very very very much louder
4Dyn can also do upward compression.
I understood both to have upwards expansion, not upwards compression (different things).


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FLVZ
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21 Nov 2017

theshoemaker wrote:
21 Nov 2017
Is someone aware of a summary of what the different compressors do? In the end I'm going to use them creatively, too but a rough overview like ... What attack/release times, whether it is a colouring or transparent comressor and what its primary use case has been intended for. I'm particularly interested with very short attack AND release times ... and the opposite long attack/release times
Check this video out:


Fast attack and release are important usually if you want to want to tame transients from things like guitars or drums.

Here's a video visualising attack & release:

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Marco Raaphorst
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22 Nov 2017

What about super slow attack and release?

I love that, Mcdsp Moo can do that. Mu-type compression.

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BRIGGS
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22 Nov 2017

Another note on the mclass...

I was going to just stick with it, but it doesn't natively support parallel compression. So having a rack extension with a prewired dry out, speeds up workflow. In my case, a 'dry out' is a basic requirement. Most of the newer stuff has a 'dry out'...distortions included. I gotta have those natural transients to mix back in, after all the destruction! !! :mrgreen:
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manisnotabird
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26 Nov 2017

BRIGGS wrote:
22 Nov 2017
Another note on the mclass...

I was going to just stick with it, but it doesn't natively support parallel compression. So having a rack extension with a prewired dry out, speeds up workflow. In my case, a 'dry out' is a basic requirement. Most of the newer stuff has a 'dry out'...distortions included. I gotta have those natural transients to mix back in, after all the destruction! !! :mrgreen:
Using parallel compression with the MClass is identical to changing the ratio. https://www.reasontalk.com/2017/06/para ... -going-on/

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BRIGGS
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26 Nov 2017

manisnotabird wrote:
26 Nov 2017
BRIGGS wrote:
22 Nov 2017
Another note on the mclass...

I was going to just stick with it, but it doesn't natively support parallel compression. So having a rack extension with a prewired dry out, speeds up workflow. In my case, a 'dry out' is a basic requirement. Most of the newer stuff has a 'dry out'...distortions included. I gotta have those natural transients to mix back in, after all the destruction! !! :mrgreen:
Using parallel compression with the MClass is identical to changing the ratio. https://www.reasontalk.com/2017/06/para ... -going-on/
Thanks!

The mclass doesn't really squash enough to notice. I'll be sticking with Rough Rider for the more crazy stuff. Also, The old comp-01 does a ok job of extreme stuff.

What can I say? I love to destroy audio! :mrgreen:
r11s

RandomSkratch
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26 Nov 2017

BRIGGS wrote:
26 Nov 2017
The mclass doesn't really squash enough to notice. I'll be sticking with Rough Rider for the more crazy stuff. Also, The old comp-01 does a ok job of extreme stuff.

What can I say? I love to destroy audio! :mrgreen:
I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to mention the Comp-01. I love how it sounds when you really push it hard.

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Marco Raaphorst
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27 Nov 2017

The Comp-01 is like the Goodhertz Vulf

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manisnotabird
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28 Nov 2017

I would love to see a more detailed video exploring the differences between compressors: all the videos I've seen have been filled only with squishy subjective terms and vague gestures towards the different constructions of analog compressors (I know a real opto compressor uses a light sensor and is "warmer" or whatever, but what exactly is the DSP version doing differently to the signal?)

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Reasonable man
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29 Nov 2017

Ideally i think you need two compressors a clinical compressor to create effects and solve problems ( I have Fabfilter pro c2)
and a compressor thats going to add character or colour to your sound ( i now have the Re-2A).
The m-class I think is usefull when you just want to tame the sound a little.

Maybe iys just me but the comp-01 is great for fattening up tinney rex loops

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Marco Raaphorst
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29 Nov 2017

manisnotabird wrote:
28 Nov 2017
I would love to see a more detailed video exploring the differences between compressors: all the videos I've seen have been filled only with squishy subjective terms and vague gestures towards the different constructions of analog compressors (I know a real opto compressor uses a light sensor and is "warmer" or whatever, but what exactly is the DSP version doing differently to the signal?)
The only things which make compressors to sound different is the attack and release. The way the compressor responds to levels which go over the threshold/peak is a dynamic process which is lineair. It's volume compensation which is exact. The only optional thing is soft knee which smoothes out the threshold/peak trigger so the threshold works less as a on/off switch for the compressor.

And some add a bit of saturation, like the RE-2A (tiny bit).

A lot of compressors sound the same when you are able to set the same attack and release times. But the extremes, like super fast, or super slow, shows the differences. Many people are interested in super fast, but I am interested in super slow as well. I consider the McDSP Moo as the best compressor ever for slow attack for example. I am using a Klanghelm MJUC variable-tube compressor which comes very close and can do things Moo can't do, but the Moo is capable of a little more "slowness" which I truly love.

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selig
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29 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
29 Nov 2017

The only things which make compressors to sound different is the attack and release…
There can be many more differences than just attack/release times in my experience, including the "soft knee" function you mentioned (which is often designed differently for each manufacturer).

"Mu" compressors such as the Moo by McDSP ALSO have a different ratio response than other compressors, where the ratio changes with input level.

In addition to different attack/release ranges (some compressors have a wider range on one or both ends of the dial), there is also the attack/release CURVE to consider (similar to the ratio curve mentioned above). Also, the difference between fixed and variable/auto attack/release (when available) can be a complicating factor…

There is also the difference between how different compressors calculate attack/release rates, some using a 20 dB reference, many not. Remember, attack/release is a RATE, not a TIME parameter, so there are three parameters involved in calculating it (though the front panels only show one). There is the Time, the Distance, and the Rate. For example, the SSL channel comp's Fast attack time is spec'ed at 3ms per 20 dB, which is the "Rate". The "Time" is 3ms, the "Distance" is 20 dB. All to say that matching the attack/release settings of different compressors (even when the settings are given in ms) will not always give you the same results.

Then there are the "auto" modes added by some developers, which are pretty much all different! Some of these modes "look" at the signal over a wide period of time to determine how to adjust the time constants, and these algorithms can all vary greatly making direct comparisons difficult.

Then of course there are the options for Peak vs RMS response, which can vary the response times greatly - and not all compressors include this feature in any form.

There are also other controls such as with the GML compressors, such as Crest Factor and Hysteresis which are not found on other devices I'm aware of, further complicating the issue of matching compression settings.

Finally, add in the different ways to achieve output compensation, such as is present on the SSL channel comp, and you've got TONS of variables making it difficult to match settings between any two compressors in many if not most cases, even of the other variables can be matched!
-------
And then there is saturation etc, an entire additional subject that can affect the sound of a compressor and cause it to give you a much different result than another compressor set up identically (in as much as it is possible to set up two different compressors identically).

[EDIT: I've build "compressors" in Reaktor that do some very different things and are not like any existing devices, but can still be classified as "compressors" - you'd be hard pressed to match the sound of these with 'traditional' compressors.]
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Marco Raaphorst
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29 Nov 2017

selig wrote:
29 Nov 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
29 Nov 2017

The only things which make compressors to sound different is the attack and release…
There can be many more differences than just attack/release times in my experience, including the "soft knee" function you mentioned (which is often designed differently for each manufacturer).

"Mu" compressors such as the Moo by McDSP ALSO have a different ratio response than other compressors, where the ratio changes with input level.

In addition to different attack/release ranges (some compressors have a wider range on one or both ends of the dial), there is also the attack/release CURVE to consider (similar to the ratio curve mentioned above). Also, the difference between fixed and variable/auto attack/release (when available) can be a complicating factor…

There is also the difference between how different compressors calculate attack/release rates, some using a 20 dB reference, many not. Remember, attack/release is a RATE, not a TIME parameter, so there are three parameters involved in calculating it (though the front panels only show one). There is the Time, the Distance, and the Rate. For example, the SSL channel comp's Fast attack time is spec'ed at 3ms per 20 dB, which is the "Rate". The "Time" is 3ms, the "Distance" is 20 dB. All to say that matching the attack/release settings of different compressors (even when the settings are given in ms) will not always give you the same results.

Then there are the "auto" modes added by some developers, which are pretty much all different! Some of these modes "look" at the signal over a wide period of time to determine how to adjust the time constants, and these algorithms can all vary greatly making direct comparisons difficult.

Then of course there are the options for Peak vs RMS response, which can vary the response times greatly - and not all compressors include this feature in any form.

There are also other controls such as with the GML compressors, such as Crest Factor and Hysteresis which are not found on other devices I'm aware of, further complicating the issue of matching compression settings.

Finally, add in the different ways to achieve output compensation, such as is present on the SSL channel comp, and you've got TONS of variables making it difficult to match settings between any two compressors in many if not most cases, even of the other variables can be matched!

And then there is saturation etc, an entire additional subject that can affect the sound of a compressor and cause it to give you a much different result than another compressor set up identically (in as much as it is possible to set up two different compressors identically).

[EDIT: I've build "compressors" in Reaktor that do some very different things and are not like any existing devices, but can still be classified as "compressors" - you'd be hard pressed to match the sound of these with 'traditional' compressors.]
Thanks! Didn't know this although I do experience getting a couple of compressor to sound the same in not extreme settings.

Didn't know that about the McDSP Moo either. I find that compressor very unique. Sounds almost as if you're not using a compressor. Extremely smooth. Never found anything like that.

RandomSkratch
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29 Nov 2017

Don't forget about upward and downward too :P

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selig
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29 Nov 2017

RandomSkratch wrote:
29 Nov 2017
Don't forget about upward and downward too :P
Indeed - I was just comparing downward compressors - you add upwards and expansion possibilities and multiply these differences and things get even crazier!
;)
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selig
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29 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
29 Nov 2017
selig wrote:
29 Nov 2017


There can be many more differences than just attack/release times in my experience, including the "soft knee" function you mentioned (which is often designed differently for each manufacturer).

"Mu" compressors such as the Moo by McDSP ALSO have a different ratio response than other compressors, where the ratio changes with input level.

In addition to different attack/release ranges (some compressors have a wider range on one or both ends of the dial), there is also the attack/release CURVE to consider (similar to the ratio curve mentioned above). Also, the difference between fixed and variable/auto attack/release (when available) can be a complicating factor…

There is also the difference between how different compressors calculate attack/release rates, some using a 20 dB reference, many not. Remember, attack/release is a RATE, not a TIME parameter, so there are three parameters involved in calculating it (though the front panels only show one). There is the Time, the Distance, and the Rate. For example, the SSL channel comp's Fast attack time is spec'ed at 3ms per 20 dB, which is the "Rate". The "Time" is 3ms, the "Distance" is 20 dB. All to say that matching the attack/release settings of different compressors (even when the settings are given in ms) will not always give you the same results.

Then there are the "auto" modes added by some developers, which are pretty much all different! Some of these modes "look" at the signal over a wide period of time to determine how to adjust the time constants, and these algorithms can all vary greatly making direct comparisons difficult.

Then of course there are the options for Peak vs RMS response, which can vary the response times greatly - and not all compressors include this feature in any form.

There are also other controls such as with the GML compressors, such as Crest Factor and Hysteresis which are not found on other devices I'm aware of, further complicating the issue of matching compression settings.

Finally, add in the different ways to achieve output compensation, such as is present on the SSL channel comp, and you've got TONS of variables making it difficult to match settings between any two compressors in many if not most cases, even of the other variables can be matched!

And then there is saturation etc, an entire additional subject that can affect the sound of a compressor and cause it to give you a much different result than another compressor set up identically (in as much as it is possible to set up two different compressors identically).

[EDIT: I've build "compressors" in Reaktor that do some very different things and are not like any existing devices, but can still be classified as "compressors" - you'd be hard pressed to match the sound of these with 'traditional' compressors.]
Thanks! Didn't know this although I do experience getting a couple of compressor to sound the same in not extreme settings.

Didn't know that about the McDSP Moo either. I find that compressor very unique. Sounds almost as if you're not using a compressor. Extremely smooth. Never found anything like that.
The Fairchild was the first compressors I'm familiar with that has these qualities, which the Manley "Vari-Mu" was loosely based upon.
http://www.manley.com/products/view/mslchp

This is in addition to the "tube" sound they both embody.
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Marco Raaphorst
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29 Nov 2017

selig wrote:
29 Nov 2017
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
29 Nov 2017


Thanks! Didn't know this although I do experience getting a couple of compressor to sound the same in not extreme settings.

Didn't know that about the McDSP Moo either. I find that compressor very unique. Sounds almost as if you're not using a compressor. Extremely smooth. Never found anything like that.
The Fairchild was the first compressors I'm familiar with that has these qualities, which the Manley "Vari-Mu" was loosely based upon.
http://www.manley.com/products/view/mslchp

This is in addition to the "tube" sound they both embody.
The Moo is totally clean. No tube emulation. Although I am a huge saturation lover I love the Moo for it's cleanness :)

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esselfortium
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29 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
29 Nov 2017
selig wrote:
29 Nov 2017


The Fairchild was the first compressors I'm familiar with that has these qualities, which the Manley "Vari-Mu" was loosely based upon.
http://www.manley.com/products/view/mslchp

This is in addition to the "tube" sound they both embody.
The Moo is totally clean. No tube emulation. Although I am a huge saturation lover I love the Moo for it's cleanness :)
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