Propellerhead Releases Reason 10

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EnochLight
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28 Oct 2017

TritoneAddiction wrote:
28 Oct 2017
Has anyone compared the DSP usage between R9 and R10? According to this video there's a significant improved performance with VSTs.
Can anyone confirm or do some testing?
Has the DSP usage also been improved with REs?

youtube.com/watch?v=rIAzpQR-67o&t=10s
I didn't bother watching the video because that guy irritates me, but in my own testing, I found absolutely no performance difference between 9.5.2 and 10. Not with VST, and not with RE. Not sure what that guy is smoking.
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bsp
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28 Oct 2017

The only differences regarding VSTs I found so far are some UI fixes.

For example, the 3d waveform widget in Waldorf's Nave and the xy and slider widgets in Zynaptiq's Adaptiverb are working now.

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TritoneAddiction
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28 Oct 2017

EnochLight wrote:
28 Oct 2017
TritoneAddiction wrote:
28 Oct 2017
Has anyone compared the DSP usage between R9 and R10? According to this video there's a significant improved performance with VSTs.
Can anyone confirm or do some testing?
Has the DSP usage also been improved with REs?

youtube.com/watch?v=rIAzpQR-67o&t=10s
I didn't bother watching the video because that guy irritates me, but in my own testing, I found absolutely no performance difference between 9.5.2 and 10. Not with VST, and not with RE. Not sure what that guy is smoking.
Alright. Thanks for the reply. I'll upgrade either way, but of course it would be cool if there actually was an improvement.

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Psuper
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28 Oct 2017

TritoneAddiction wrote:
28 Oct 2017
EnochLight wrote:
28 Oct 2017


I didn't bother watching the video because that guy irritates me, but in my own testing, I found absolutely no performance difference between 9.5.2 and 10. Not with VST, and not with RE. Not sure what that guy is smoking.
Alright. Thanks for the reply. I'll upgrade either way, but of course it would be cool if there actually was an improvement.
No improvement.

Not only would I and other "tech savvy" users have it benchmark proven, propellerhead would have grandstanded it on the marketing trail.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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AttenuationHz
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28 Oct 2017

TritoneAddiction wrote:
28 Oct 2017
Has anyone compared the DSP usage between R9 and R10? According to this video there's a significant improved performance with VSTs.
Can anyone confirm or do some testing?
Has the DSP usage also been improved with REs?

I was comparing one song which was clicking and popping on my old interface. DSP was pretty high. Using a Focusrite interface now and getting slightly better DSP still the odd click from DSP spike.

The song I tested in 9.5.2 and 10rc4 d70 seemed to be giving slightly better performance in 10. Not much but definitely an improvement.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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Catblack
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28 Oct 2017

I think vst scanning at startup is better in 10, but I haven't sat here with a stopwatch or anything.
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Damn.

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AttenuationHz
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28 Oct 2017

Catblack wrote:
28 Oct 2017
I think vst scanning at startup is better in 10, but I haven't sat here with a stopwatch or anything.
That's true d72 doesn't scan unless you change something in the folder, beta was scanning everything on startup as was 9.5.2
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28 Oct 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
27 Oct 2017
Creativemind wrote:
26 Oct 2017


So the notes aren't in the same clip so you can't see them all?
Cheeky! You added that bit of the request in a subsequent post I didn't see until now. :redface:

Ok, with that addition to the workflow you're describing, you're absolutely right. Sorry!
No problem. Yeah it's one of the few niggles that need ironing out in Reason.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
27 Oct 2017
I totally, 100% agree. In fact that has always been one of the top, top frustrations about the Reason sequencer (and I mostly love the Reason sequencer): the lack of any ability to view two tracks to get any kind of context, or, in your scenario, where you want a function just like "Extract Notes to Lane" but Muting the selected note range. That would be very useful. It's also something akin to the long-asked-for "ghost notes".
+1 for Ghost Notes.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
27 Oct 2017
These are the kinds of things major Reason updates should be doing, but the internal focus seem to be solely on grabbing new users with bold headlines about content. :puf_unhappy: Reason 10.x is looking more and more like make-or-break release in terms of whether it offers any enhanced functions. But given the lack of attention to finer details in large swathes of Reason 10s content (Kong pads with Congas labelled as Toms, no legato on a choir etc etc),, my big fear is that any active enhancement in a point release will also be equally half-arsed. I'm aware of issues reported by Test Pilots months ago and being roundly ignored and making it to release.
I agree. To not address a single one of (I have over 100 features, sounds a lot but a good 80 are just little tiny things. About 50 are midi and inline (sequencer) audio editing features. I asked Propellerhead straight out on their Facebook page a few days ago if any core features would be added and sent them a message asking as well. Neither were responded / replied to. When you ask them a question that doesn't seem to be on their agenda or to do with anything they haven't implemented, they go mute. Like all other questions asked on the Facebook thread (ones that weren't when is this gonna happen or why have no core features being added) they were responded to. if it was a question about Grain or Europa or whatever. The others were either ignored or were given the (something like) thanks for your feedback /Stefan.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
27 Oct 2017
2.
I still think there's mileage in Ghost Notes, an ability to view another Track's clip, at the same timeline position, in the current open clip. (It would probably look a little like non-active notes from a previous/subsequent clip currently do when they overlap an active clip, but it would need a way to distinguish from overlapped clip's note on the same track).
Yes and being able to see 2 or more midi editors above each others as when I've used ghost notes in FL Studio (it is good yeah and like it) it can sometimes be a little confusing having notes there in the way, a bit cluttery (if that's a word lol!) so for me, both options of ghost notes and multi clip midi editors above each other so I could just line them up that way would be another good option.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
27 Oct 2017
3.
And lastly, and it kind of pains me to say it given my long-standing hatred for masses of floaty windows, but given we're in a VST era now ... ;) The ability to right-click any clip (at least MIDI, but audio would be useful too) and select "Open Track in New Window". That would open a new window per track with its own mini-sequencer that could be resized, and include all the use tools. It would remember the last Track Window position. It would track the main sequencer clip/playhead. Potentially you would be able to open as many track windows as you like, but I'd guess that mostly even just one window, as a compositional reference for things like bass line or current chord, would have saved a lot of people a lot of hassle.

It's still not too late to add this stuff, if there is any desire left to make the program more flexible.
Is that like the thing you get in Studio One where you can open (say it was Reason) a Thor track in a new floating window and make a midi clip (edit it etc) and then once you're happy with it, cut and paste the midi clip to the main Thor track in the original sequencer? If so, I loved that feature when I went to Studio One masterclass a couple of years ago. Think it was called Clip Launcher (which I believe is different to Clip Launch like Abelton) but might be wrong.

Another easily implementable feature that niggles me is sync'ing the windows on the fly (and a sync button for the browsers. One on the sequencer file browser, press it and it will make the sequencer browser display what the rack browser has and vice versa, rack to sequencer sync button in the rack). I have e-mailed Propellerhead about 8-10 months ago asking for both of these features.

Anyway, here is something I was working on last night that brought to light the the issue of syncing all 3 windows on the fly (in regard to solo'ing, muting, order and labelling) and it ruined my video actually. I made a little track with a 32 bar loop on Reason 10 to show a mate Europa and Grain in action and was recording it using bandicam. I was in the rack and had Grain muted in the sequencer. I wanted to unmute (on the fly) as I was recording the video obviously and it also was to be in time with the track. So I switched to the rack and wanted to show Grain playing the sample and unmute it (as I had multiple samples playing on different tracks) but it wasn't muted in the rack was it, so had to go back to the sequencer to unmute it and flick back to the rack to show it in action as intended and obviously then the sample would've been a third or half way through on Grain so for live purposes especially there needs to be sync'ing windows on the fly.

Here is the video. You can see what I mean at 40 seconds. Had to go back to the sequencer to unmute Grain and go back to the rack.

:reason:

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FlowerSoldier
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28 Oct 2017

I see what you mean at the :40 mark. It is a quirk, but it does make sense in my workflow. I usually save clips in a separate note lane and edit to taste. That way I keep all the previous edits and can compare them. I like having the option to mute MIDI tracks without muting the device output.
I do see how it could inconvenience you in some regards. I'm not trying to disparage your opinion, but it does have some useful applications.

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plaamook
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28 Oct 2017

AttenuationHz wrote:
28 Oct 2017
... beta was scanning everything on startup as was 9.5.2
I never had that with 9.5.2. It just opened.
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AttenuationHz
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28 Oct 2017

plaamook wrote:
28 Oct 2017
AttenuationHz wrote:
28 Oct 2017
... beta was scanning everything on startup as was 9.5.2
I never had that with 9.5.2. It just opened.
Happened to me after 9.5 just after the second update iirc. There was someone who had loads of VST's and it was taking forever to scan for them. Wonder if the same person has any trouble now!?
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plaamook
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28 Oct 2017

Maybe. I don't have very many VSTs
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bsp
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28 Oct 2017

TritoneAddiction wrote:
28 Oct 2017
Has anyone compared the DSP usage between R9 and R10? According to this video there's a significant improved performance with VSTs.
Can anyone confirm or do some testing?
Has the DSP usage also been improved with REs?

okay, so I watched the first 3min of that video.

the guy said he saw a 30%..40% performance improvement when using Waves channel strip VSTs.

Since I still have R9 installed, I created two identical test projects in R9 and R10 that both have 8 tracks, each with a Subtractor and an instance of Waves Scheps 73 (I saved the track template as a combinator to make sure the settings are identical).

Here's how the task manager CPU graphs look like on my Windows 7 PC ( i7 4770, hyperthreading disabled). First R9, then R10:
t_r9.png
t_r9.png (3.94 KiB) Viewed 3879 times
t_r10.png
t_r10.png (3.98 KiB) Viewed 3879 times

I took the screenshots when the CPU usage peaked.

Reason shows 1 bar of DSP for this test in both R9 & R10.

Here's the graph of another test that uses the same track setup but has 32 tracks instead of 8 (3 DSP bars):
t32_r9_r10.png
t32_r9_r10.png (7.48 KiB) Viewed 3863 times

as for the 30..40% improvement: my guess is that the guy in the video accidentally used different audio buffer size settings. In my tests I used a 128 samples buffer and when I change that to 256, the peak CPU usage is decreased by ~30%.


by the way: does anyone have an explanation for the CPU usage fluctuation ? Reason's always been doing that (using it since R7) and I always wondered about that.

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wendylou
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28 Oct 2017

Anyone having fun with Reason 10? I have found some neat sounds in there that inspire me to jam and doodle. It's easy to forget the wish list and fix it list when you find new sounds to play with. :)
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DonnieAlan
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30 Oct 2017

sublunar wrote:
27 Oct 2017
DonnieAlan wrote:
27 Oct 2017
OR or better yet AND...make it so VST hosting can take place with Reason in slave mode.
Agree with everything you say (except reason is my one and only DAW), but I believe this is a technical limitation of rewire technology. At least according to the livestream.
I don't think that's accurate because Reaper can host VSTs when in slave mode. I do it all the time. I can put Reaper on an instrument track in Pro Tools and use it to host VSTs, both 64 and 32bit, and use PT for all the MIDI and routing the audio out to PT AUX or Audio tracks.

And speaking of Rewire, the other thing I'd like to see is Rewire be a two way street. It'd be great to be able to have Reason in slave mode, send audio TO the Reason rack to add some of the unique rack fx such Alligator or Scream, and then send the processed audio right back to a PT Aux or Audio track via Rewire.

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EnochLight
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30 Oct 2017

DonnieAlan wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I don't think that's accurate because Reaper can host VSTs when in slave mode. I do it all the time.
Well, it's accurate because this is what Propellerhead said in the FB livestream video. It's a technical limitation of Reason.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

dezma
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30 Oct 2017

I'd have prefered VST implementation working properly instead of some new devices

Still miss:

Drag n drop wave files (e.g. drum vst pads)
Avenger VST automation is not possible

Guess it'll be my first update to skip since reason 5.

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AttenuationHz
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30 Oct 2017

dezma wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I'd have prefered VST implementation working properly instead of some new devices

Still miss:

Drag n drop wave files (e.g. drum vst pads)
Avenger VST automation is not possible

Guess it'll be my first update to skip since reason 5.
If you open the window on your pc/mac you can drag n drop them. I use wavelab to audition the samples then drag and drop.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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EnochLight
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30 Oct 2017

dezma wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I'd have prefered VST implementation working properly instead of some new devices

Still miss:

Drag n drop wave files (e.g. drum vst pads)
Avenger VST automation is not possible

Guess it'll be my first update to skip since reason 5.
I have Avenger as well. I tend to drag and drop right from my OS, but automation works for me. Are you sure you're clicking the "automate" button in your VST window and then the parameter you want to automate?
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DonnieAlan
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30 Oct 2017

EnochLight wrote:
30 Oct 2017
DonnieAlan wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I don't think that's accurate because Reaper can host VSTs when in slave mode. I do it all the time.
Well, it's accurate because this is what Propellerhead said in the FB livestream video. It's a technical limitation of Reason.
I didn't see the livestream. If that's the case, then its a self-imposed technical limitation since there are other programs, i.e. Reaper, that can host VSTs while in slave mode. I doubt the limitation is of such a nature that it can't be overcome. I do know that there are several who have made the request, so I suspect the P-heads are looking into how to make that work.

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EnochLight
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30 Oct 2017

DonnieAlan wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I didn't see the livestream. If that's the case, then its a self-imposed technical limitation since there are other programs, i.e. Reaper, that can host VSTs while in slave mode. I doubt the limitation is of such a nature that it can't be overcome. I do know that there are several who have made the request, so I suspect the P-heads are looking into how to make that work.
Always a possibility. I wonder how big of a demand there is for it, though? Certainly not as big of a demand as there is to improve VST performance in Reason, or for workflow improvements (sequencer and otherwise).
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yamguitar
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30 Oct 2017

My Quick 2¢ Review
For context: I upgraded from 9.2. I’m not really a synth guy… I’m a guitarist… but I’ve been a Reason fan and user for a long time. It’s always fun for me to play with, and just fantastic for throwing stuff together quick. I use it whenever I need to do something electronic-y, and I nearly always sequence drums in it for Rewire to my other DAW.

▪ Radical Piano: Fine, I guess. I like the interface, but I already had more piano options than I needed.
▪ Synchronous: I love this, but I already had it.
▪ Pangea: Very underwhelming. The kind of junk that comes with every Kontakt package and never really comes in handy… very, very dated, small instrument selection, and most of the instruments were already included in some form in Reason and have been for years.
▪ Humana: YUCH. I can’t imagine ever using this. Again, corny, generic, unrealistic, and dated. Very few vocal articulations available, too… just aahs and oohs, really.
▪ Klang: Better! I write a lot of music for the theatre, and I frequently wind up adding chimey noises like glockenspiels and music boxes to help outline simple melodies in a busy mix. Kinda corny selection, but the sounds are nice and clear and I know I’ll use this… convenient to have these tuned percussion elements all in one package. Nothing too cutting-edge, though, and, again, many similar instruments already existed in the Reason soundbanks.
▪ Europa: Ooh, I like this… every sound I’ve tried has been inspiring. Really cool and lively sounds! Lots of big, fat, wide patches with lots of motion to them.
▪ Grain: Now, this interests me. I like being able to mangle something I recorded acoustically to get an unfamiliar, yet organic sound. I haven’t quite doped it all out yet, but the possibilities are exciting.
▪ Drum Supply: Welcome, though I already spend too much time wading through and auditioning kick samples.
▪ Loop Supply: Also definitely welcome. I was very happy to see that most of the loops come with a few variations… that’s frequently more useful to me than a million unique loops, as it lets me throw together credible song arrangements to jam with quickly.

The Bottom Line: Is this upgrade worth $129? I’d have to say that just for the sheer volume of stuff, it’s a deal… if you were going to purchase this stuff anyway. I could see charging $50 a pop for Grain or Europa easily, and it would be a bargain if you’re a synth nut, or $20-45 for a big new collection of loops. I probably wouldn’t have sought out any of these items on my own, though, and I’m definitely disappointed that simple things that I could use more, like a proper marker system for the sequencer, the ability to have multiple versions or mixes within the same project, or an EQ that felt like it really did something when I turned the knobs, are left out. I’m glad to have upgraded, though, and I’m also optimistic that the point updates will bring a lot more of the workflow features that I’d prefer.

dezma
Posts: 268
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30 Oct 2017

EnochLight wrote:
30 Oct 2017
dezma wrote:
30 Oct 2017
I'd have prefered VST implementation working properly instead of some new devices

Still miss:

Drag n drop wave files (e.g. drum vst pads)
Avenger VST automation is not possible

Guess it'll be my first update to skip since reason 5.
I have Avenger as well. I tend to drag and drop right from my OS, but automation works for me. Are you sure you're clicking the "automate" button in your VST window and then the parameter you want to automate?
Yeah tried it a dozen of times. Only things that seem automatable are osc1 to osc3 params then it stops. Did not manage to automate cutoff for example. Click automate then cutoff nothing happens

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EnochLight
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31 Oct 2017

dezma wrote:
30 Oct 2017
EnochLight wrote:
30 Oct 2017


I have Avenger as well. I tend to drag and drop right from my OS, but automation works for me. Are you sure you're clicking the "automate" button in your VST window and then the parameter you want to automate?
Yeah tried it a dozen of times. Only things that seem automatable are osc1 to osc3 params then it stops. Did not manage to automate cutoff for example. Click automate then cutoff nothing happens
Which version of Avenger are you on? I'm on 1.2.5, and can automate most of the features on a few oscillators (as many as 1-3 Osc), but yeah - looks like I run out after that point. No effects parameters. No filter parameters. :( Instead of clicking the automate button on the VST window, I'm just tweaking knobs with my mouse in record mode. Looks like there's a bit of work that Vengeance/Props need to work out.
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dezma
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31 Oct 2017

EnochLight wrote:
31 Oct 2017
dezma wrote:
30 Oct 2017


Yeah tried it a dozen of times. Only things that seem automatable are osc1 to osc3 params then it stops. Did not manage to automate cutoff for example. Click automate then cutoff nothing happens
Which version of Avenger are you on? I'm on 1.2.5, and can automate most of the features on a few oscillators (as many as 1-3 Osc), but yeah - looks like I run out after that point. No effects parameters. No filter parameters. :( Instead of clicking the automate button on the VST window, I'm just tweaking knobs with my mouse in record mode. Looks like there's a bit of work that Vengeance/Props need to work out.
It's for props, as avenger automation works perfectly for all parameters in Ableton. Seems they have 9 groups (you can check this in piano roll, if you go to automation). Once that runs out, all other parameters are not automatable. I'd guess this would be a general issue/limitation with all synths with a lot of parameters. The thing that worries me is that props don't seem to care. I get the feeling customer support doesn't seem to be very high on the priority list. I logged this issue again with the beta test, they just deleted the ticket.

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