Europa Shapeshifting Synthesizer (Thread)

[Goodbye]

Unfortunately it appears we now have a product manager whose main goal is dumbing things down. Like he said in the livestream, this is his release. He has made these choices. I'm guessing that the investment firm that now owns Propellerhead is applying pressure to radically grow the user base and make the company more profitable. This means attracting those who just want a bunch of presets and samples. Ready to use out of the box.

Those are people who don't care about improvements to the engine, fixes for longstanding bugs, CV control etc. They just want more. More shiny shit. More presets. More devices.

This also means releasing new things without fixing previous new things that were buggy. The way the platform looks to a new user is more important than how it works for old users.

Lots of people seem to be grabbing hold of the idea that they will iterate on the devices in the future - add the missing things that people want. This has rarely happened in the past and I doubt it will happen in the future. You are buying a half-baked synth that will remain a half-baked synth. When people say 'But serum costs more than this update', that is because it is a brilliantly thought out modern synth. This is a clumsy attempt at competing that fails to use the platform to its advantage.

But we'll all buy it anyway.

[TritoneAddiction]

Unfortunately it appears we now have a product manager whose main goal is dumbing things down. Like he said in the livestream, this is his release. He has made these choices. I'm guessing that the investment firm that now owns Propellerhead is applying pressure to radically grow the user base and make the company more profitable. This means attracting those who just want a bunch of presets and samples. Ready to use out of the box.

Those are people who don't care about improvements to the engine, fixes for longstanding bugs, CV control etc. They just want more. More shiny shit. More presets. More devices.

Yeah I get your point. It wouldn't hurt to add some more CV stuff for the people that are into that (it's on the back anyway). But you can still do a shit ton of stuff with it. It's still looks like a beast of a synth. There will still be plenty of stuff to play around with. To call Europa a product for just the preset guy seems like a very exaggerated statement.

[Goodbye]

Yeah. Fair enough. It's not just for the preset guy, but it is built primarily for the preset guy. Why else add those draggable effects? Rehashes of independent effects that already exist but with less controls. It's because presets. Without them built in they are left with a pretty feeble sounding synth, but with them included they can 'verb distort and delay the shit out everything to make them sound better. The preset crowd have no interest in adding their own effects. They just want a preset with a couple of sliders to tweak.

I'm sure we'll be able to milk some good sounds from it, but it's just frustrating to see how little emphasis has been placed on opening it up. They have an amazing modular platform but don't seem to do anything to take advantage of it.

[EdGrip]

Hello goodbye,
I agree, a CV in for filter cutoff and wave position would save time and save a mod slot. Beyond that it becomes a bit of an exercise in PH second-guessing what parameters people are most often going to CV. That's not to say they shouldn't - I think the back panel would be a good opportunity for them to really showcase CV.

I don't think they've kept CV out to make it less scary for noobs. Noobs don't look at the back. I don't think they've kept CV out to throw the independent RE devs a bone. I don't know why they've done it.


But apart from that, what would you like to see added to "open it up"? What do you feel you don't have immediate access to right now on the front panel, or what do you wish the synth could do that it doesn't do?
Sample import, for instance, or maybe it could do with a step sequencer?

I gather you don't like the included effects. Is it that you don't want them at all? Or is it something else you don't like about the effects? All big-ticket synths have included effects. People like them and they are a standard feature. There is nothing unusual about having built-in effects.

I haven't seen (or heard!) any evidence that it's a "feeble sounding synth" so far. I thought it sounded much the same as any other wavetable synth you might bump into, but with some unique features besides. Chuck an OTT at it and I reckon it can deadmau5 with the best of them.

My view is that as a native, PH designed product, it should have audio ins for access to the filters and effects, because sure, why not?
It should have loads of immediate CV for all sorts of things, because sure, why not?
When someone thinks "oh! I like this! I've just had a thought, can I..." the synth should just say "yeah, sure, try it."

[aeox]

Chuck an OTT at it and I reckon it can deadmau5 with the best of them.

[scratchnsnifff]

I almost feel like it should be standard for reason wavetable synths to have a dedicated cv slot for the wavetable position. Hopefully between now and the 25th it could be added, maybe during the public beta If enough people bring it up they might address it before release, the back side did appear to look "un finished" thors back rack, malstroms, subtractors, all have nice labels and dedicated slots for assumed parameters like FM filter cutoff and rotaries. Mattias did say the spectral filter wouldn't be able to have an audio in, but maybe the regular filter could. Those resonant daft punk sweeps sounded amazing! The regular filters seem powerful Enough as it is

[QVprod]

I don't think they would have done that if there wasn't already a substantial user base of not so heavy CV users. Remember not all music makers are not sound designers. Aside from the bare basics of CV control in Reason, (gate in/out, RPG8...etc) CV has relatively little value to those not into modular synthesis. That's probably most music makers in general

I personally barely ever use CV in actual song creation. Reason has other good qualities besides CV.

Well I respect that view but clearly you are an engineer/producer from your comments.

CV, modulation, connectivity are hugely important to me. It was slightly disappointing to see the back of Europa for me. Lots of opportunities lost IMO.

Understandable. There's no real right or wrong to this. Just simply different perspectives depending on your creative process. My comments were more so in response to the idea that there's no point in using Reason if you're not heavy into CV.

[QVprod]

Yeah. Fair enough. It's not just for the preset guy, but it is built primarily for the preset guy. Why else add those draggable effects? Rehashes of independent effects that already exist but with less controls. It's because presets. Without them built in they are left with a pretty feeble sounding synth, but with them included they can 'verb distort and delay the shit out everything to make them sound better. The preset crowd have no interest in adding their own effects. They just want a preset with a couple of sliders to tweak.

I think there's a whole different way to look at this. All synths are equally designed for both kinds of users. The preset users who can tweak to taste, and also the sound designers. Sound designers can simply initialize the patch and do what ever they wish with it. Use the included fx, or bypass them and use whatever fx of their choosing. The inclusion of fx doesn't automatically mean the synth is feeble sounding on it's own. Most of the huge soft synths people use nowadays have built in fx. Even Thor has some built in fx. Disappointment at less CV options is one thing, but I'm not understanding the annoyance at included fx that can be bypassed entirely. If it were primarily for preset users there would be limited controls and be something more like Nexus. Europa is a full blown synth. I'm lost how preset users are the priority on this one.

[Goodbye]

I'm not understanding the annoyance at included fx that can be bypassed entirely.

I'm not annoyed by them. I actually don't care about them. However I think they are indicative of the direction PH are headed. If they were added in addition to modular functionality then that would be fine. However it doesn't feel like any concession has been made to breaking out the things that make this synth unique for use as modular tools.

Like I said, go ahead and add the effects to the synth, but offer the functionality of the synth up to use in a modular way.

[QVprod]

I'm not understanding the annoyance at included fx that can be bypassed entirely.

I'm not annoyed by them. I actually don't care about them. However I think they are indicative of the direction PH are headed. If they were added in addition to modular functionality then that would be fine. However it doesn't feel like any concession has been made to breaking out the things that make this synth unique for use as modular tools.

Like I said, go ahead and add the effects to the synth, but offer the functionality of the synth up to use in a modular way.

Then you don't mean that it's not intended for sound designers, but rather that it's not designed with modular synthesis in mind. Those are two different statements. That latter makes more sense to me. That said, Propellerhead has never gone in the modular direction entirely. Europa lacks the designated CV inputs to specific things but it does still have 4 assignable CV ins and outs (as Thor does). Of course that means more mod matrix slots have to be used for the more experimental users, but Mattias did mention modulating any parameter with the CV ins during the live stream.

[jayhosking]

Unfortunately it appears we now have a product manager whose main goal is dumbing things down. Like he said in the livestream, this is his release. He has made these choices. I'm guessing that the investment firm that now owns Propellerhead is applying pressure to radically grow the user base and make the company more profitable. This means attracting those who just want a bunch of presets and samples. Ready to use out of the box.

Those are people who don't care about improvements to the engine, fixes for longstanding bugs, CV control etc. They just want more. More shiny shit. More presets. More devices.

This also means releasing new things without fixing previous new things that were buggy. The way the platform looks to a new user is more important than how it works for old users.

Lots of people seem to be grabbing hold of the idea that they will iterate on the devices in the future - add the missing things that people want. This has rarely happened in the past and I doubt it will happen in the future. You are buying a half-baked synth that will remain a half-baked synth. When people say 'But serum costs more than this update', that is because it is a brilliantly thought out modern synth. This is a clumsy attempt at competing that fails to use the platform to its advantage.

But we'll all buy it anyway.

1. Don't buy it if you don't want it. Easy. Done. Problem solved. If it's all about this investment firm conspiracy theory, then they'll listen to your buying power.
2. Yes, he made choices. Like making a synth with automatable features and a variety of interesting sound design ideas. Like updating the stock sound palette of Reason to include a couple of powerful modern devices, rather than forcing us to build combinators of stacked older synths. Europa is meant to compete with other modern synthesizers, and thus they bundled effects into the synth itself, the same as is done with eXpanse or Spire or whatever.
3. Would I like to see some improvements in the DAW? Sure. Would the Props team like to see some improvements in it? I bet they would more than you or me. But they have finite time and resources (despite their regularly-mentioned-by-grouches investment firm) so they have to allocate their resources to the features that are highest priority to them. Personally, I think the stock devices were the weakest part of Reason, and I think Europa and Grain will substantially change that. Don't think having modern synths bundled into Reason is a priority? See point 1.
4. Europa sounded great and varied on the livestream and probably sucks up a fraction of the CPU that whatever you consider not half-baked uses. There are numerous design decisions that will never be clarified to us, and they're not beholden to do so. They make a product; we buy it or don't buy it. Don't mistake them being friendly and personable with their users as meaning they owe us something that you don't get from a big faceless company. If I were Props, I'd probably never come on ReasonTalk and see all the endless griping. Personally, I am looking forward to playing around with Europa, especially since running multiple eXpanse devices is often prohibitive. But...
5. Seriously, if you don't want it, then just don't buy it. That's cool and totally OK. There's a lot of great software out there for making music. This is the one I like more than the others. If you like another program better, then more power to you.

[miscend]

Where in that video do they show the ability to draw your own waveforms?

[alex]

Where in that video do they show the ability to draw your own waveforms?

If I'm not mistaken, envelope 3 & 4 curves can be used as a waveform generators: you basically draw an envelope and it can be used as a oscillator waveform...

[Exowildebeest]

Where in that video do they show the ability to draw your own waveforms?

If I'm not mistaken, envelope 3 & 4 curves can be used as a waveform generators: you basically draw an envelope and it can be used as a oscillator waveform...

That begs for a "random" button!

PH should go panda hunting.

[alex]

That begs for a "random" button!

PH should go panda hunting.

+1000!

[Catblack]

Has anyone seen the back of Europa yet? I see people complaining about it's lack of CV but I don't think anyone's seen the back side of it.

[alex]

Has anyone seen the back of Europa yet? I see people complaining about it's lack of CV but I don't think anyone's seen the back side of it.

it has been shown during the live, not sure at which minutes tho...

[Goodbye]

@jayhosking I'm not going to quote your reply, but briefly:

1. Thinking that a company selling majority shares to a large investment firm isn't going to effect the product is laughably naive. Saying "Don't buy it" is a silly argument. I've invested a lot of time and money in the platform. I want things fixed. I want it to improve. I don't want to wait another 18 months for fixes and improvements.

2. In my opinion they are short sighted decisions that are about pulling new users, not satisfying long term users like me.

3. Again, bad decision on their part and see point 1.

4. For once we can agree. They aren't our buddies. They want to make money from us. I wish more people understood a this about companies. As for spending time on this forum, it's pretty obvious that they haven't listened to people's valid concerns so yes I I don't know why they do spend time on here. And thanks for giving me permission not to buy buy it. Perhaps if you give me permission not to complain I'll stop complaining.

[jayhosking]

OK, Goodbye. You do you.

I'm sure the firm is one day going to affect the product. Truly. But this just feels like Props doing what they do. I say this as a fellow "long term user".

Likewise, as someone who has been using this program since the very beginning (minus a couple versions in the middle), I am satisfied with this update. As I said, I'd love to see improvements to the DAW itself, but I understand that their development resources are finite and that this update addresses arguably the most pressing issue with Reason (the stock sounds). I would say that they have been listening to valid concerns but cannot address everything all at once. We'll have to continue to disagree about which concerns needed addressing first.

Just because a person has put time and money into something doesn't mean that they should continue to do. That's called the sunk-cost fallacy. I wasn't being glib: there are so many awesome solutions for making music out there. This one is the best fit for me, which is why I continue to give them money. If it weren't (as happened with ProTools), I'd pay another company instead.

My sincere apologies if my tone was too brusque in that first reply.

[Catblack]

Has anyone seen the back of Europa yet? I see people complaining about it's lack of CV but I don't think anyone's seen the back side of it.

it has been shown during the live, not sure at which minutes tho...

Found it, it's at 49:30.

Only 4 CV in and out? And only 8 items on the mod matrix?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand they want it running lean, but come on! I am a total CV freak and would love to really dig into what we can do with this. I really felt Nostromo stepped up the game by having as many options in the mod matrix it did.

[tronam]

Unfortunately it appears we now have a product manager whose main goal is dumbing things down. Like he said in the livestream, this is his release. He has made these choices. I'm guessing that the investment firm that now owns Propellerhead is applying pressure to radically grow the user base and make the company more profitable. This means attracting those who just want a bunch of presets and samples. Ready to use out of the box.

Those are people who don't care about improvements to the engine, fixes for longstanding bugs, CV control etc. They just want more. More shiny shit. More presets. More devices.

Funnily enough this is actually a return to form for Propellerhead. New versions of Reason were heavily geared around new instruments and effects, while the core application and sequencer would languish for years.

[kungubu]

If imported wavetables or other features don't work with Europa, thats fine. And the missing ability tho use the filter would have been ok if Grain had the same filter (and the possibility to use it - which I assume it has). But it doesent seem to be the same (it lacks a Drive knob anyway). But really, why not a few more dedicated cv-ins - at least for wavetable position and filter cut off. How diffucult can it be? And if the argument is that a bigger mod matrix would intimidate people - a few more cv-ins on the back wouldn't harm anyone. Even if cv isn't a big selling point for Propellerheads anymore, it is still at least a part of the Reason-concept that it seems foolish to abandon. Those who don't use it can ignore it. But for those who use it it means a great deal and there is always a possibility that poeple after a while starts to use it. I really can't see the conflict. The possibility to expand synths with other devices can not really hurt anyone...

[AzureEyes]

Yeah we may get wavetables importation in "Europa" Mattias said "you can't load wavetable in at the moment" so I guess if there's enough requests they may make it possible

Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

[scratchnsnifff]

Yeah we may get wavetables importation in "Europa" Mattias said "you can't load wavetable in at the moment" so I guess if there's enough requests they may make it possible

Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

K where's the poll :p

[Jagwah]

Only 4 CV in and out? And only 8 items on the mod matrix?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand they want it running lean, but come on! I am a total CV freak and would love to really dig into what we can do with this. I really felt Nostromo stepped up the game by having as many options in the mod matrix it did.

I think a new 'super' Combinator with a much larger mod matrix would alleviate a lack of CV input problems. This has been asked for for so many years it's a bit of a worry though :/