Where Is Reason Headed?

[Krell]

What is needed IMO is a more holistic approach based on the way folks want to work today.

Have you tried Bitwig?

I was going to ask the same question...

[exxx]

I expect PH to gradually get out of the DAW market.

REASON has added many features, but the DAW internal tools have not surprisingly been updated.

Does it make sense to connect the KONG drum to use the transient shaper?

Separating the effectors should separate them.

Always have the same compressor and EQ stereo tools, even if the version goes up. They are not upgraded at all.
The internal racks are not at all like modern DAWs.

There are few benefits for existing users.

Policies favorable to new users only

I love REASON but I do not recommend it to my friends.

[antic604]

I expect PH to gradually get out of the DAW market.

REASON has added many features, but the DAW internal tools have not surprisingly been updated.

Does it make sense to connect the KONG drum to use the transient shaper?

Separating the effectors should separate them.

Always have the same compressor and EQ stereo tools, even if the version goes up. They are not upgraded at all.
The internal racks are not at all like modern DAWs.

There are few benefits for existing users.

Policies favorable to new users only

I love REASON but I do not recommend it to my friends.

Well, if Reason was to stop being Reason then what incentive would we have to use it instead of Cubase, Logic, Live, Bitwig or Reaper? I'd wager many people use Reason precisely because it's different. I know I do.

[calebbrennan]

Reason is Rock solid Daw like no other. I've used Cubase & Protools, played with Logic.And the whole Vst integration sucks and takes too much time

It reminds me how I hated REWIRING reason to cubase. Ugh!

the brilliance of Reason emerged when I was able to record audio in 6
A perfect self contained non flammable and reliable surface to record my audio and midi ideas

You can do anything in this program and don't need VST's. But now you can VSt if you want to go through the hassle for icing on cake


I went from 6 to 10 in the last year and I am dumbfounded by the brilliance of the prop head programmers.
Idea
As far as screen resolution PropellerSwedes might think about high resolution video projection so Reason can be projected on any wall

[mcatalao]

Exactly. Opposite to your example, my tracks have max 3-5 short samples (kick, hats, maybe some short spoken sentence) and everything else is a lot of virtual instruments (native, RE, VST) heavily processed with effects, parallel and frequency splits, lots of automation and send effects.

From my experience, the biggest CPU hogs at the base song (before mixing) are Synths. Anything sample related in Reason should not be a problem for your CPU untill you start adding inserts. Even NI Kontact, or East West (i have full orchestral East West projects in reason that run quite nicely) are working flawlessly in m system. The only issue i have with East West is that it only plays correctly when exporting in Real Time, so you have to mix down to an additional track (Quite easy to do tapping audio out of the master channel).

That being said, i like to separate the different production stages(at least that's what i'm doing with my projects). Most of the times, I'll have at least 2 projects, the more creative one (sequencing, recording and mixing) and the mastering work will be on a mastering project where I master a multitude of songs together to achieve cohesion on multi song projects. I use ozone on the main project if i need to pre- master something, like sending something to a customer at commercial level. Separating the stages also helps you to commit to that stage, and to close that stage, something that is very difficult for most hobby musicians - songs are never finished, only abandoned till your next hdd cleaning...

Anyway... I digress. There will always be the Synth hog, or the Tape effect that loads 30% of your cpu either in Reason or any other DAW.

[antic604]

Exactly. Opposite to your example, my tracks have max 3-5 short samples (kick, hats, maybe some short spoken sentence) and everything else is a lot of virtual instruments (native, RE, VST) heavily processed with effects, parallel and frequency splits, lots of automation and send effects.

From my experience, the biggest CPU hogs at the base song (before mixing) are Synths. Anything sample related in Reason should not be a problem for your CPU untill you start adding inserts. Even NI Kontact, or East West (i have full orchestral East West projects in reason that run quite nicely) are working flawlessly in m system. The only issue i have with East West is that it only plays correctly when exporting in Real Time, so you have to mix down to an additional track (Quite easy to do tapping audio out of the master channel).

That being said, i like to separate the different production stages(at least that's what i'm doing with my projects). Most of the times, I'll have at least 2 projects, the more creative one (sequencing, recording and mixing) and the mastering work will be on a mastering project where I master a multitude of songs together to achieve cohesion on multi song projects. I use ozone on the main project if i need to pre- master something, like sending something to a customer at commercial level. Separating the stages also helps you to commit to that stage, and to close that stage, something that is very difficult for most hobby musicians - songs are never finished, only abandoned till your next hdd cleaning...

Anyway... I digress. There will always be the Synth hog, or the Tape effect that loads 30% of your cpu either in Reason or any other DAW.

Well, I'm a hobbyist - I don't have 'production stages', not 'sending something to customer', etc. It's just fun and therefore I don't like to bounce stuff to audio, because I don't have deadlines and there's always something to be tweaked

[mcatalao]

You mean re-re-re-(re)-tweaked...

Sent from my WAS-LX1A using Tapatalk

[antic604]

You mean re-re-re-(re)-tweaked...

Usually, yes

[jlgrimes]

I expect PH to gradually get out of the DAW market.

REASON has added many features, but the DAW internal tools have not surprisingly been updated.

Does it make sense to connect the KONG drum to use the transient shaper?

Separating the effectors should separate them.

Always have the same compressor and EQ stereo tools, even if the version goes up. They are not upgraded at all.
The internal racks are not at all like modern DAWs.

There are few benefits for existing users.

Policies favorable to new users only

I love REASON but I do not recommend it to my friends.

For them to leave the DAW market would be bad.

Their sequencer has its pluses. Easy to use and sketch ideas. Even the audio recording is good.


Maybe mixing large projects and such is probably its biggest weakness but that is the same for Ableton and probably FL Studio.

Alot of their weaknesses IMO could be fixed with a few most likely simple features.


I think Props biggest issue is they tend to focus mainly in certain very specific areas while completely ignoring others and their historically slow development cycles. All DAWS have this issue to a degree though.


It is very rare to see a Reason update where they make changes all across the board. 10 is a good example. It was only synths and sounds.

Sometimes this is good though as I had Sonar where they would try to please everybody and have an upgrade where you forget how to use program with alot of bugs.

[Hauser+Quaid]

I expect PH to gradually get out of the DAW market.

REASON has added many features, but the DAW internal tools have not surprisingly been updated.

Does it make sense to connect the KONG drum to use the transient shaper?

Separating the effectors should separate them.

Always have the same compressor and EQ stereo tools, even if the version goes up. They are not upgraded at all.
The internal racks are not at all like modern DAWs.

There are few benefits for existing users.

Policies favorable to new users only

I love REASON but I do not recommend it to my friends.

For them to leave the DAW market would be bad.

Their sequencer has its pluses. Easy to use and sketch ideas. Even the audio recording is good.


Maybe mixing large projects and such is probably its biggest weakness but that is the same for Ableton and probably FL Studio.

Alot of their weaknesses IMO could be fixed with a few most likely simple features.


I think Props biggest issue is they tend to focus mainly in certain very specific areas while completely ignoring others and their historically slow development cycles. All DAWS have this issue to a degree though.


It is very rare to see a Reason update where they make changes all across the board. 10 is a good example. It was only synths and sounds.

Sometimes this is good though as I had Sonar where they would try to please everybody and have an upgrade where you forget how to use program with alot of bugs.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

I'm not sure exactly where it's headed overall but I've always loved using Reason. Unfortunately I've had to step into the Logic realm for the past few tracks I worked on simply because Reason couldn't handle what I needed to throw at it. But for now I'll just enjoy the ride & look forward to the next update later this year!

[mcatalao]

(...)
Maybe mixing large projects and such is probably its biggest weakness but that is the same for Ableton and probably FL Studio.
(...)

I don't agree with this.

The only 2 weaknesses i find mixing in reason is that the way they created the automation lanes depends on an additional device, and the automation of the mixer is separated from the main track. Automating is a complete mess (Selig commented about it before) because you will have 2 versions of the same channel and that is IMHO messy. The selection of tracks for single mode controlling if you use a midi controller is also crap. The simple idea of selecting a channel to edit parameters on surface in single channel mode is a pain. To solve this, some developers made single mode configs available on the surfaces, but these are limited to a set of channels, and is not very usefull in multi controller environmnets.

I surpased these weeknesses with automation and colorcoding. ATM i can mix a full project based on Reason's console without touching the mouse and going to the sequencing. Most of my actions if not all can be done with my consoles and this makes reason the perfect tool. There are things i'd like changed, but they are mor functional (like having the ability to save and recall mixer channels, hide tracks, have collapseable track folders that you could remove from the mixer (and thus not be controlled by a controller), and a better bounce in place (or a reall freeze).

Of course I'd want reason to be the most performance DAW, but i also want the platform to evolve. But i also know that the main features of these daw (that allows me to route audio and CV completely freely) came from the first iteration of this software at a cost, and that was performance. Routing Audio and CV completely freely has it's cost. It doesn't compare to ANY other daw and a lot of other companies have tried to do it and none has achieved it in such a functional, beatifull and fun way (and don't get me started on the combinator).

[Ollie]

My prediction is that Reason will go entirely cloud based as a web app you can access from anywhere there is an internet connection.

DSP in Reason could become the most powerful of any host due to entirely offloaded cpu in the cloud.

Collaboration will be possible in real time within the same session.

Users will be able to piece together devices using a grab bag of common components similar to Reaktor blocks.

EDIT: development will be opened up to JS and other languages, allowing for unmonetized homebrew device widgets.

No? Just me?

I had similar thoughts. Online colabs in realtime would be amazing!

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they? VST support was announced in like April. So for the past 100+ days REs have been doing what? Sleeping?

Developing REs?

[jlgrimes]

(...)
Maybe mixing large projects and such is probably its biggest weakness but that is the same for Ableton and probably FL Studio.
(...)

I don't agree with this.

The only 2 weaknesses i find mixing in reason is that the way they created the automation lanes depends on an additional device, and the automation of the mixer is separated from the main track. Automating is a complete mess (Selig commented about it before) because you will have 2 versions of the same channel and that is IMHO messy. The selection of tracks for single mode controlling if you use a midi controller is also crap. The simple idea of selecting a channel to edit parameters on surface in single channel mode is a pain. To solve this, some developers made single mode configs available on the surfaces, but these are limited to a set of channels, and is not very usefull in multi controller environmnets.

I surpased these weeknesses with automation and colorcoding. ATM i can mix a full project based on Reason's console without touching the mouse and going to the sequencing. Most of my actions if not all can be done with my consoles and this makes reason the perfect tool. There are things i'd like changed, but they are mor functional (like having the ability to save and recall mixer channels, hide tracks, have collapseable track folders that you could remove from the mixer (and thus not be controlled by a controller), and a better bounce in place (or a reall freeze).

Of course I'd want reason to be the most performance DAW, but i also want the platform to evolve. But i also know that the main features of these daw (that allows me to route audio and CV completely freely) came from the first iteration of this software at a cost, and that was performance. Routing Audio and CV completely freely has it's cost. It doesn't compare to ANY other daw and a lot of other companies have tried to do it and none has achieved it in such a functional, beatifull and fun way (and don't get me started on the combinator).

I think my biggest gripe is the lack of a decent track manager like Sonar/Reaper/Studio One where you can hide/archive tracks.

Makes it harder when you get to high track counts like 50+ tracks especially if working with client that don't want you to delete stuff.

I got spoiled with more standard DAWS. Reaper is cool too how you can set multiple tracks to same level all with key commands. And lack of VCAs and ability to select multiple tracks with mixer and move faders. Automation is a little basic as well.

I agree performance is a killer too. As with large projects, performance can creep up. I think though with freeze and hiding/archiving tracks, performance wouldn't be too bad in Reason or any DAW.

Ableton has pretty bad performance as well but it usually isn't a big deal when you can quickly freeze CPU intensive tracks. Studio One can be a hog as well but it has Freeze and a great CPU meter that actually shows what tracks and plugins are hurting your performance. Reaper probably has the best performance though but it is very uninspiring for actually creating. It was actually late in getting freeze but it was so customizable users created freeze macros that were great.

Reason don't need all of those features. Just a few of those would be very helpful.

[selig]

(...)
Maybe mixing large projects and such is probably its biggest weakness but that is the same for Ableton and probably FL Studio.
(...)

I don't agree with this.

Depends on what you mean…I'm with jlgrimes with regards to track management on large projects. Even if working alone, it's nice to put some tracks on "ice" while you try other ideas. With client work it's damn near essential. It's also handy to hide individual tracks and just work with sub groups, especially with stacks where many of the individual tracks are similar anyway and would never need to be individually adjusted.

Then there's versions, which means saving more than one incremental version OR saving multiple final versions - both of which are difficult with high track count and the current system of saving the entire track count with each save (takes drives space AND lots of time!).

Plus there's no way to import data from other mixes, which when dealing with a large track count on album mixing projects means a lot of careful copy/paste or similar.

[Raveshaper]

Back to reality from that cloud based stuff i did earlier, the main challenge here is that the market simply changes too fast for a slow development cycle. Having allowed the gulf to widen between what they have kept on doing and what others are now doing doesn't help matters.

Yes other companies have taken years to bring stuff out, but when they delivered the product it resulted in things like: Ableton Link, Studio One V3, SoundGrid, and NKS, to name a mainstream few.

If this brand is to continue, there absolutely needs to be a shift away from having to ask how to do something standard, with fiddly answers, to intuitively being able to do that thing in ways that make sense.

I'm just going to give it a name: struggle. Music is a struggle, sure, but people who like Reason like the struggle. I don't. I like the struggle to be in getting enough material created fast enough to keep up with my ideas.

Case in point, take a moment and check out this video when thinking about where this could go. This is where things are already, out there:

If you skip through and watch how quickly he can work, how the hardware is integrating into a variety of hosts, that is what's happening now. If you listen to the audience you can hear them gasping or cheering. That is not the future, that video was made last year.

The point is, I'm sold and so are a lot of other people. Anything with that much integration and expressive power combined with ease of use and scalability? Maschine -- a "DAW" even more limited in practical terms than Reason -- was designed to also work as a plugin and has more users? Come on.

And really think about that. Why would someone who spends hours in their studio daily choose to get less value out of their time simply on principle or solely out of loyalty? Today's market moves much too fast for a company to limp on one foot in a NASCAR race.

To do a fraction of what this video shows in Reason, you need to apply to be a developer and wait quite a while for confirmation, then edit or create a small book's worth of tab delimited text files in a spreadsheet editor, and in some cases learn an entire scripting language. We're talking potentially weeks or months to years worth of forced DIY to only approximate what you're seeing on the video: a live setting, what the user needs, when the user needs it, how the user needs it.

Methodical, linear programming of tab delimited text files cannot and never will compete with plug and play and is just a baffling no-sell of a way to do things. I say that from having pushed that part of Reason as far as it can be made to go. It's a nightmare to work with and defiantly resistant to progress or efficiency. All of this is part of what is wrong and needs to be addressed going forward. The future needs to look very different to the current situation that contains these problems.

So there are two things that I feel need to be done here. The first thing is figuring who they are marketing to. Seriously, who is Reason for? Who would benefit from having this as opposed to NKS or similar. I'm talking about people serious enough about making music to buy a host and install it.

The second is adjusting strategy in every possible way if the target demographics don't match the current paradigm, or liquidating the company if the intent is to not compete. But if a radical new direction is needed to stave off dissolving the company or something like that, I don't think they have the resources to do it. It has seemed to take everything they have just to arrive in last place. I can't sugar coat that.

I think the "reason" why a lot of features aren't in there yet is because everyone else patented everything good, and now there aren't any scraps left to swoop on. New material almost seems to be added when outmoded samples or technologies from other companies become royalty free. I swear i heard Humana on late 90s keyboards as a generic choir sound. Must be my imagination.

Anyway, that's my take. Who is Reason for and how does it benefit them in its current state. I'm all for people liking Reason, some people are amazing with it. It's just not for me and I'm not alone. That's a part of looking to the future as well, if there is one.

EDIT: In short, they are going to have to identify and reverse any and every glaring (and lingering) root cause for someone to leave their platform.

[jlgrimes]

I think the "reason" why a lot of features aren't in there yet is because everyone else patented everything good, and now there aren't any scraps left to swoop on. New material almost seems to be added when outmoded samples or technologies from other companies become royalty free. I swear i heard Humana on late 90s keyboards as a generic choir sound. Must be my imagination.

Highly doubt patent is the reason. DAWS copy off of each other all the time. I think Logic invented the piano roll. Now every DAW has one. Props Recycle invented slicing, Ableton built upon it with Warping, now Reason have it. Reason invented the Combinator, Ableton responded with Live Racks.


I think the reason certain features don't make it in is complex as they only have so many programmers, who have to support company's vision/standards of product, old codebase that was either 3rd party developed or developed by someone no longer with company, having to redo other aspects of program to implement certain things. Resolving bugs. Etc.

[djadalaide]

Have you tried Bitwig?

I was going to ask the same question...

I have tried it, its like Ableton but not as fully formed and a bit clunky workflow-wise.

[Undistraction]

I have to say I was really shocked seeing a friend use Ableton the other day. I guess I live in a bit of a Reason bubble. I knew from what others have said that Reason was behind, but man i didn't realise just how far it was behind.

I guess they must be working on a radical update at the moment. That would make sense. I just wonder how many users will have jumped ship before it arrives. But then I guess most people using Reason are not pros anyway (or at best semi-pros). I know a few famous tracks have been made with it, but compared to the number of big acts using Ableton it is a drop in the ocean. A big part of that is how well Ableton has built a community around it (from what I see on YouTube anyway), but also that they focus so much on performance and workflow.

I'm definitely planning on looking more at Ableton now, using Reason as an RE host. It's pretty hard to see how they can compete in terms of the sequencer without starting again from scratch. I love the rack paradigm, but even that needs an update. I think they've left it really late to make their move, but they have all the ingredients for something wonderful. They question is whether they have the vision (and the budget).

The idea of having two versions is an interesting one, but the complexity and confusion is probably going to outweigh the benefits. Just look what happened with Record. I think it's more likely they will have a stripped down mobile version and a rewritten desktop version with support for hi-res screens and big sequencer improvements. If they can nail the mobile think they could make a tonne from that, but I worry it is happening at the expense of the desktop version.

[antic604]

I was going to ask the same question...

I have tried it, its like Ableton but not as fully formed and a bit clunky workflow-wise.

That's a very surface / shallow observation, I'm afraid... I own both Live 10 Suite and Bitwig 2.4 so if you're interested here are my thoughts based on using both extensively:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7070551

[djadalaide]

I have tried it, its like Ableton but not as fully formed and a bit clunky workflow-wise.

That's a very surface / shallow observation, I'm afraid... I own both Live 10 Suite and Bitwig 2.4 so if you're interested here are my thoughts based on using both extensively:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7070551

I'm comparing to 2.2, thats the last version i tried.

[chaosroyale]

Hey, that's a really good, unbiased comparison, how would you like to add Reason into that mix and compare the 3? (let's say instead of plus and minus signs, use B, L and R).

I think it would help people who only use Reason or who use older-style DAWs to understand what it's like at the cutting edge of DAW tech these days. Live and Bitwig are certainly the 2 DAWs that appeal to the "tweaky" crowd, like Reason.

I have tried it, its like Ableton but not as fully formed and a bit clunky workflow-wise.

That's a very surface / shallow observation, I'm afraid... I own both Live 10 Suite and Bitwig 2.4 so if you're interested here are my thoughts based on using both extensively:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7070551

[EnochLight]

That's a very surface / shallow observation, I'm afraid... I own both Live 10 Suite and Bitwig 2.4 so if you're interested here are my thoughts based on using both extensively:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7070551

When you said:

Bitwig aims at sound designers, modular systems users, experimentators liking to tweak and fiddle with stuff;

..I immediately thought “that’s a great description of how I still feel about Reason”. Anyway, nice review/comparison to Live Suite. I started out not liking Bitwig at all (as I wasn’t fond of Live, and the two shared a lot of DNA), but as it’s gone on I keep considering it. But as much time as I spend in Studio One these days, it would be a waste of money for me.

[antic604]

Hey, that's a really good, unbiased comparison, how would you like to add Reason into that mix and compare the 3? (let's say instead of plus and minus signs, use B, L and R).

I think it would help people who only use Reason or who use older-style DAWs to understand what it's like at the cutting edge of DAW tech these days. Live and Bitwig are certainly the 2 DAWs that appeal to the "tweaky" crowd, like Reason.

To be really frank, I think there would be four categories Reason would "win" with Live or Bitwig, and they mostly wouldn't be without caveats:

- the looks - I mean Reason's design is beautiful and very tasteful, from Sequencer, through Rack to Mixer it's just fun & inspiring to use; I like how I can quickly identify my sounds by looking at Rack devices, instead of anonymous boxes I have in Live/Bitwig (and that's why I don't like and try to avoid using Combinator or VSTs in Reason); even the color palette is great - caveat? it's low-res and pixelated on high-DPI screens,

- the mixer - even if it doesn't model the real SSL console in terms of how it sounds, it's - once you 'get it' - very easy to use, quick to get results and very fun to work with - caveat? I don't think they should have limited the features to strict SSL replica, for example the slopes on the filters, number of nodes in the EQ, insert FX on sidechain source would be very useful, etc.

- the RE environment - they're much better integrated in Reason than VSTs will ever be and because of that there's a lot of unique devices that couldn't work as VSTs, it's super convenient to have all of them right there in your account to d/l or update - caveat? well, it's a walled garden so if you use other DAWs or in the future would decide to switch DAW, you just lost a lot of money as they can't be sold/transferred,

- audio comping & pitch editing - missing from both Live & Bitwig and Reason's implementation is really, really good! no caveats here

Everything else I guess is not in favour of Reason - sequencer is a mess, workflow is missing a lot of modern (usually very basic) features, Rack is incredibly fun for small/medium projects but patching cables is very laborious & difficult to maintain as the projects get more complex, VST performance (and sometimes support of, for example for MIDI VSTs, external sidechain input) is way behind all other DAWs

[antic604]

When you said:

Bitwig aims at sound designers, modular systems users, experimentators liking to tweak and fiddle with stuff;

..I immediately thought “that’s a great description of how I still feel about Reason”. Anyway, nice review/comparison to Live Suite. I started out not liking Bitwig at all (as I wasn’t fond of Live, and the two shared a lot of DNA), but as it’s gone on I keep considering it. But as much time as I spend in Studio One these days, it would be a waste of money for me.

Indeed, in that respect both Bitwig & Reason feel very similar, although how you get the results is the differentiating factor.

That's why I'm not at all surprised by your choice, as Reason & Studio One is a much better combo of complementary DAWs where there's not much overlap.

[dandandaaan]

Everything else I guess is not in favour of Reason - sequencer is a mess, workflow is missing a lot of modern (usually very basic) features, Rack is incredibly fun for small/medium projects but patching cables is very laborious & difficult to maintain as the projects get more complex, VST performance (and sometimes support of, for example for MIDI VSTs, external sidechain input) is way behind all other DAWs

I think this sums up how I've started to feel about Reason lately. I adore Reason and have quite heavily (maybe foolishly) bought into the RE environment. But having said that, I'm slowly getting deeper into Ableton Live and its workflow is simply leaps and bounds ahead. Everything is visible in one window (or if not, it's just a keyboard tap away), flexible (seriously, how I lived without freely resizable sequencer tracks and nested groups I will never know), clearly labeled and looks great. There are a hundred little things I didn't even realise I needed that have soon become quite indispensable. I have a lot of love for Reason but if I'm really honest with myself, I don't think PH has the manpower or the desire to try and catch up with this or any other modern DAWs in terms of workflow anymore; I'm no programmer but I get the impression that it would require basically rebuilding the whole program from the ground up, and that's really before you get into the interface problems, the lack of advanced MIDI capabilities, the mixer limitations...

Basically, ITT: Reason is the rack environment, which is both its blessing and its curse. Its many sequencer and mixer shortcomings are innately tied to this "hardware" paradigm. Will there always be a market for tinkering with its instruments and effects, building crazy CV machines and combinators etc.? Yes, absolutely. Is this way of working really compatible with what we now consider to be basic modern DAW features/workflow? I'm really not sure.

Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but off the back of the Europa VST release I can just about imagine (and would be very in favour of) a future where the Reason rack becomes some kind of Reaktor-esque mega-VST. Who's in?