Where Is Reason Headed?

[Jmax]

Reason is definitely NOT losing it's way. Quite the opposite, it's gaining features and strength all the time. Sure people complain and about things being improved. Especially on the graphics end, that I can understand. More features like video support etc.. but that will come with time. The one thing that always brings me back to Reason, is the ease of use. Not just creating a track, but adding in quick reverb or delay. A simple right click and automate. Try doing that with Studio One. Ain't so easy. Ableton as well.

[daisky]

I am a Logic user but I have not opened Logic since I bought Reason two months ago.

Logic looks SO much better, but Reason is a lot of fun. It has this playful quirky vibe that makes me always end up making something and experimenting with sounds and arrangements. Logic is great if I bring in a song to record, but I feel Reason is the more creative tool.

I still use Logic and love it. I am happy to be able to use both. The only thing I want Props to do ---which I really think is a must at this stage as it is getting too fucking late-- is to bring the graphics/resolution out of the 90s. It really detracts from the experience that their product deserves.

[Oquasec]

Sorry but I think Reason didn't do anything to lose it's way because it's the exact same thing it has always been, with more features that don't need rewiring.
Not big news if you rewire, big news when you don't wanna rewire.

[Reasonable man]

I am a Logic user but I have not opened Logic since I bought Reason two months ago.

Logic looks SO much better, but Reason is a lot of fun. It has this playful quirky vibe that makes me always end up making something and experimenting with sounds and arrangements. Logic is great if I bring in a song to record, but I feel Reason is the more creative tool.

I still use Logic and love it. I am happy to be able to use both. The only thing I want Props to do ---which I really think is a must at this stage as it is getting too fucking late-- is to bring the graphics/resolution out of the 90s. It really detracts from the experience that their product deserves.

Imo Reason and Logic are the perfect combination. Opened up Logic myself for 1st time in 6 months the other day to check out if Europa Vst works (it does).
With both sets of libraries and synths everything is kinda covered (apart from maybe live performance) The ES2 is a fantastic clean sounding synth and logic's little effects plugins sound great. I just have to find a workflow between the two that dosnt involve rewire.....rewire sucks donkey balls,

[jlgrimes]

Not just creating a track, but adding in quick reverb or delay. A simple right click and automate. Try doing that with Studio One. Ain't so easy. Ableton as well.

Studio One has about the quickest GUI I've seen for adding effects. You can do sends and insert effects all within a few seconds (drag and drop)

Ableton is almost just as easy but a bit harder for sends.


Both Studio One and Ableton makes it very easy to rearrange insert effects via Drag & Drop. Studio One is a tad bit easier because of its mixer view.

I always found Reason harder in adding effects as you have to think more and go to back of rack.

Reason has the most advanced routing for any DAW but it sometimes can be a curse.

Sidechaining of Studio One is easy.
Sidechaining of Ableton if using stock Ableton plugins very easy (not so easy if using VSTs or Audiounits though)
Reason you often have to prethink stuff out, use spiders etc.

Ableton's Drum/Live Racks are also a bit easier to work with as well than Reason's Kong/Combinator especially when needing to add effects.


Ableton/Studio One might suffer from having harder to understand GUI, but once figured out, they can do things faster in some cases than in Reason.


Reason is the easiest for quickly automating but Ableton is only a bit harder and has some cool tricks. As with its Clip Envelopes it can do things like Synchronus right in its GUI.

Studio One is more advanced but more powerful than both but has a learning curve.

[esselfortium]

Both Studio One and Ableton makes it very easy to rearrange insert effects via Drag & Drop. Studio One is a tad bit easier because of its mixer view.

I always found Reason harder in adding effects as you have to think more and go to back of rack.

Reason has the most advanced routing for any DAW but it sometimes can be a curse.

A good tip for this is to hold shift while moving an effect around in the rack. This will automatically redo the routing to change its order in the signal path, so you don't have to flip the rack around.

(It'd be great if they could come up with some way to make this functionality more obvious to new users, as it's pretty obscure for something so incredibly convenient!)

[hurricane]

Imo Reason and Logic are the perfect combination.

This is exactly why I'm not as emotionally invested in Reason as I used to be. I'll start a track in Reason and work on it till its 80-90% done then move it to Logic and finish it off there. If it's a track that I know I will want to finish in Logic, then I won't use any REs or internal devices or automation and just use VSTs so that I can basically recreate the project in Logic. Takes a little bit of setup time but it's no big deal. My Logic template has the same fx sends that I use in my Reason template, in the exact same order. Any insert FX I use are usually Waves, in which case I load them in Studiorack and then save off the preset chain (like a combi) so I can then reload it in Logic. So the only work involved is exporting the midi from Reason, loading it in Logic, connecting the right instruments with the right presets to the appropriate track, applying my effects combis, and done. Automation and mixing is all done in Logic. Plus I get to add Logic's effects and instruments to the track. Best of both worlds.

[daisky]

^^ What do you think about exporting the audio from Reason and working on it in Logic? So that for example you can use instruments or sounds that you cannot replicate in Logic? Is it too much of a pain?

[EnochLight]

^^ What do you think about exporting the audio from Reason and working on it in Logic? So that for example you can use instruments or sounds that you cannot replicate in Logic? Is it too much of a pain?

This is how I used to work with Reason and Studio One until Reason hit 9.0 and added its own pitch editor for vocals and 9.5 added VST. I exported everything I had (hated using ReWire) and just finished it off in Studio One. It wasn't a pain at the time, but in hindsight (now that I do everything in Reason), I guess it was. YMMV, of course.

[selig]

Quick question:
How many here feel Reason is a better place to start songs than to finish them?

I really wish this was addressed in future updates, knowing it has to keep existing users happy (by not changing how Reason feels) while also attracting new users and keeping current user in the ecosystem to the end.

I also see half the users wanting Reason to stay the same and the other half wanting Reason to catch up with, and even pass, the other popular DAWs.

I see one way towards these seemingly mutually exclusive goals as creating two related versions of the app, as it’s done in the visual world with Photoshop Elements vs Photoshop, Premier Elements vs Premier, or DaVinci Resolve vs DaVinci Resolve Studio.

I could see a future with “Reason” (based on the current app) and “Reason Studio” (expanding on the current features addressing the mixer and sequencer) with the ability to cross collaborate between versions.

One of my design “exercises” of the past few years is to imagine how I would build a new music creation application based on what I NOW know rather than strictly building on the current paradigms. It’s fun and enlightening in many ways, and I’ve only recently realized some of the concepts could be applied to Reason if one is willing to create a more “pro” version of the app.
[emoji3]


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[EnochLight]

Quick question:
How many here feel Reason is a better place to start songs than to finish them?

Now that I can use Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced in Reason, I'm all on-board, 100%, start to finish. But that's just me - I don't really need anything else, honestly.

[hurricane]

^^ What do you think about exporting the audio from Reason and working on it in Logic? So that for example you can use instruments or sounds that you cannot replicate in Logic? Is it too much of a pain?

Not a pain, and I do that with drums. I just prefer to have instruments as midi because I almost always end up dramatically changing the song in Logic. And I'm not an experimental sound designer, or a sound tweaker or delve into creating "interesting" sounds with esoteric REs or CV - my stuff is pretty unexciting, simple, and generic lol so I'm never faced with trying to replicate a reason-exclusive sound in Logic. If I ever did do that (probably not - I'm too lazy) I would def bounce to audio.

[hurricane]

Quick question:
How many here feel Reason is a better place to start songs than to finish them?

Now that I can use Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced in Reason, I'm all on-board, 100%, start to finish. But that's just me - I don't really need anything else, honestly.

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

[EnochLight]

Now that I can use Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced in Reason, I'm all on-board, 100%, start to finish. But that's just me - I don't really need anything else, honestly.

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

Lately, I bounce my tracks down to audio stems first for the mixdown and mastering session, and work with instances on all tracks without issue. An average project of mine is about 20-25 tracks. When I hit around 25 tracks without bouncing down to stems first, I'm pushing the limits of my system.

[selig]

Now that I can use Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced in Reason, I'm all on-board, 100%, start to finish. But that's just me - I don't really need anything else, honestly.

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

That's more or less how I feel, but I have used PT instead of Logic (but since my move I don't have PT, as I ditched it on my home computer years ago).

I just can't quite get into Logic as it still feels like a MIDI sequencer that added audio than an DAW that added MIDI.

Things like the CPU load and general workflow are why I feel certain elements of Reason are in need of a re-write, and older apps like Logic and PT are reasons why I feel a "re-think" of the DAW is in order as both started as one thing and were then morphed into another. What is needed IMO is a more holistic approach based on the way folks want to work today.

[Reasonable man]

^^ What do you think about exporting the audio from Reason and working on it in Logic? So that for example you can use instruments or sounds that you cannot replicate in Logic? Is it too much of a pain?

Not a pain, and I do that with drums. I just prefer to have instruments as midi because I almost always end up dramatically changing the song in Logic. And I'm not an experimental sound designer, or a sound tweaker or delve into creating "interesting" sounds with esoteric REs or CV - my stuff is pretty unexciting, simple, and generic lol so I'm never faced with trying to replicate a reason-exclusive sound in Logic. If I ever did do that (probably not - I'm too lazy) I would def bounce to audio.

The whole thing sounds like a plan . Cause i'm a creative person i find it hard to do all the rack stuff i try and do in Reason in Logic's Sequencer and the smart controls aren't enough for me to work with diffeent routings ... but the truth is i havn't had time to really test those limitations. I intially bought the Fabfilter mixing bundle to do a similar aporoach to yourself and mixing down in Logic ..but the CV modular thing in Reason swayed me and now i have bought too many rack extensions not to try mix in Reason. Also ......the Hydlide videos were a major influence (that man i feel still dosn't get enough credit). The thing is...... he manages to mix in Reason to such a high standard that with alot of extra planning ahead he's shown that it is possible (even if he does use a dangerous amount of subtractors.. an instrument i just personally cant get to sound right apart from 3 stepper sub-bass sinewaves!).
I think everyone should know one daw inside out and for better or worse i've chosen Reason but since Logic has a more simplistic and straight forward take on midi i have given serious thought to writing music alternanitivley ( helps with variety) ie. one track in Reason ...the next in Logic etc etc but thats just an idea and although there shouldn't be a mismatch in audio quality that would be a real test. The thought of getting back to using Logic in that sense in a pain as there has been so many little updates here and there that it would take a few intensive months getting fluent with all the sub menues, shorcuts and stuff that is is unique to that daw.
I'm not in a position to give people pointers but i think music is evolving at a rapid rate and there are so many sounds now that simply aren't achievable outside of the cv-gate modular enivornement and since thats what reason excels at most you could be missing a trick not getting into it while you can . I bought midi-cv converter and Noteview rack extensions today (even though i know i cant afford em!) cause i know they can open up avenues that simply aren't possible in a standard midi enviornment and i see them as an investment into partly creating those sounds that normally i hear but have no idea how to create.

[mcatalao]

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

I wonder... Do you really feel that much of a difference from that chain (SSL Chan Strip -> Tape plug) to Reason's Main Mixer Strip (i try hard not to call it ssl)?

I start most of my mixes with the main mixer, and then build up inserts where i need something different/better and i'm quite happy with the results of this approach. And well... I also have Neutron and Ozone advanced, I really love what Ozone 8 does and it's integration with tonal balance, but... I used neutron for a couple of songs (going away from my workflow) and in the end i didn't have a too big sonic difference for my normal Reason workflow of SSL and Re's. Set aside the fact I can't side chain with VST's in reason. I now resolve to go to Neutron if i need something that i don't have as a RE or a Reason device witch with more than 150 Re's in my arsenal is quite hard not to have one (or even a few) option. Or if i need to check some masking between 2 or more tracks, but end by taking it out,

Also, i put Softube Tape on some of my newest songs, but I'm either using it on the master bus or on groups of tracks.

I find these posts quite hard to understand. Maybe these projects are much more processed than my own, or the base song already takes too much CPU (as if you have a lot of synths and very CPU hungry devices).

But to be honest, my pop mixes are all on the 30/40 track count and i don't have much trouble to mix them. I do master them on a separate project and there is the odd one where i sometimes can't do a fast master on the bus with ozone 8, but i don't think there are much i can't mix on a single session.

As for your and Selig's workflow complains, i created a crazy 24 chan mixing rig with controllers, i hate using a mouse for mixing and about monitors (either sound or screens) the more the better. Reason has the perfect workflow for me now.

PS.: I'm working in a 4 year I7 4790k box... I just opened one of my pop songs and i counted 32 Effect Re's, and an organ synth (revival). The rest of the song comprises a lot of sampled instruments, some recorded instruments (a flute and a tamborine) and at least 12 vocal tracks between to mains and a bunch choir stuff.
Without the mastering effects, the song hits only 2 dsp bars. Adding Ozone 8 without tonal balance plus Softube Tape makes it hit 4. Adding Tonal balance, makes it hit five with the occasional drop out - you don't need tonal balance on all the time, just to analyze stuff. But i have enough juice to Record, mix and master in a single project though most of the time i opt to master on a different project.

[selig]

To be more clear about what I see as mixing limitations in Reason, it has to do with things like poor automation support (especially as it has to do with using hardware), not being able to use Mix Channels as returns and have solo work properly, not being able to inactivate and hide tracks or hide tracks that are a part of a group (so I can just use the bus masters to mix), no proper pre-fader sends (they are post mute, which is not like any other mixer I know), no peak metering option per channel or peak hold display per channel, no way to adjust fader automation in decibels, no way to see fader automation imposed on top of audio waveform or have it move with clips, no way to shrink the mixer view horizontally to see more/all mixer channels at once, no fader groups, no edit groups, no way to import track data from previous mixes when creating new mixes, no way to import audio from another project into current project (alternative way of working to previous comment), no markers so you can jump to different sections quickly while mixing, no real-time export to include external FX while mixing, etc.

Some of these have workarounds, many do not. But I can still get mixes out of Reason, it’s just frustrating knowing how much easier/quicker it could be!



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[Exowildebeest]

Now that I can use Neutron 2 Advanced and Ozone 8 Advanced in Reason, I'm all on-board, 100%, start to finish. But that's just me - I don't really need anything else, honestly.

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

That workflow might even be an advantage for your creativity.

I used to do something similar, start a loop in Reason, export, build loops and sounds on that in Ableton, and re-import those loops and sounds in Reason. While seemingly complicated, these different stages did help me come up with good stuff, and commit to it when exporting those loops. I find I fuck around and waste time a lot more now that I'm almost exclusively working in Reason (except mastering).

[QVprod]

To be more clear about what I see as mixing limitations in Reason, it has to do with things like poor automation support (especially as it has to do with using hardware), not being able to use Mix Channels as returns and have solo work properly, not being able to inactivate and hide tracks or hide tracks that are a part of a group (so I can just use the bus masters to mix), no proper pre-fader sends (they are post mute, which is not like any other mixer I know), no peak metering option per channel or peak hold display per channel, no way to adjust fader automation in decibels, no way to see fader automation imposed on top of audio waveform or have it move with clips, no way to shrink the mixer view horizontally to see more/all mixer channels at once, no fader groups, no edit groups, no way to import track data from previous mixes when creating new mixes, no way to import audio from another project into current project (alternative way of working to previous comment), no markers so you can jump to different sections quickly while mixing, no real-time export to include external FX while mixing, etc.

Some of these have workarounds, many do not. But I can still get mixes out of Reason, it’s just frustrating knowing how much easier/quicker it could be!



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And this is why I mix in Studio One. Though admittedly prefader sends in S1 seem to be post mute as well.

[jlgrimes]

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

That's more or less how I feel, but I have used PT instead of Logic (but since my move I don't have PT, as I ditched it on my home computer years ago).

I just can't quite get into Logic as it still feels like a MIDI sequencer that added audio than an DAW that added MIDI.

Things like the CPU load and general workflow are why I feel certain elements of Reason are in need of a re-write, and older apps like Logic and PT are reasons why I feel a "re-think" of the DAW is in order as both started as one thing and were then morphed into another. What is needed IMO is a more holistic approach based on the way folks want to work today.

I have Logic as well and I couldn't vibe with the sequencer.

Some of its features are great and the instruments are stellar but alot of its features seemed overly complicated.

I guess it all comes down to what is comfortable. Some of my best work was done in Reason though, with all of its shortcomings, it makes some things dead simple. And Reason has great included synths and samplers, a great user community.

I think Reason biggest strength is the immediacy of its synths. They make everything tweakable and logical. Logics synths while great sounding, GUI seems like it was designed by aliens.

That said Logic for some reason reminds me of Reason in some ways.

[jlgrimes]

I love Reason and I've been using it since version 1 (in fact since Rebirth), but I feel like it's really losing its way. The very thing that makes it great was it's unique eco-system comprised of the included devices and, later, the Rack Extensions. I've been willing to put up with the limitations (particularly the tiny size of the items in the rack and lack of a zoom) because I enjoyed the limitations. But by adding VSTs Propellerhead have killed the Rack Extension market. Sure a few developers will continue, but why would anyone who makes VSTs bother with REs now? So now we have a DAW that hasn't been designed to work with VSTs with VSTs bolted on, and the thing it was designed to work with (Rack Extensions) dead in the water.

I'm hoping that Reason 10 will make some big changes - they desperately need to add a zoom so REs can be used at a larger size (some of the REs are ludicrously cramped) and hopefully they will find a way to better integrate VSTs into the rack, but I just don't understand the game plan. It seems like they have suddenly decided to compete with all the other VST-driven DAWS but are way too late to the game. And are sacrificing the very thing that made them stand apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong but what do other people think?

Props do have alot of work ahead to improve Reason.

I think about every aspect can be improved.

That said I think they are at a good point with included synths.

I would think they are focusing more on modernizing the GUI.

[Data_Shrine]

Do you use Neutron on each track or one instance on a group of tracks? Is CPU performance reasonable? Assuming you are working with more than 10 tracks...

I just keep running out of juice. I HAVE to finish tracks in Logic. And I like to put a console emulation, an SSL channel strip, and tape plugin on each track. Reason can't handle that right now. But even if it did, mixing a song with over 20 tracks is clunky, and I hate having to switch between the 3 windows all the time to make simple changes (for example - I wish I could adjust the volume of a channel from the sequencer window). I'm a one screen guy. And I just don't like the multiple windows/one screen view.

This is why, for me, it's better starting a song in Reason, where ideas flow quickly, and then finishing it off in Logic - where CPU performance is not an issue (I don't even have to THINK about it!), I can use VST3 plugins, and mixing is a much more streamlined experience.

That workflow might even be an advantage for your creativity.

I used to do something similar, start a loop in Reason, export, build loops and sounds on that in Ableton, and re-import those loops and sounds in Reason. While seemingly complicated, these different stages did help me come up with good stuff, and commit to it when exporting those loops. I find I fuck around and waste time a lot more now that I'm almost exclusively working in Reason (except mastering).

I'd recommend you try making a template of (say, X number of channels...) in both Reason and in Ableton, and put them both as your start-up templates in both software. In Ableton, put all the Reason' channels in a group, so you can show/hide them and it keep things tidy and clean.

It's super easy to resample audio (and use synths) from Reason into Ableton this way, you don't have to export it, you don't have to setup it up every time either. So you can pretty much use everything with everything !

[antic604]

What is needed IMO is a more holistic approach based on the way folks want to work today.

Have you tried Bitwig?

[antic604]

I find these posts quite hard to understand. Maybe these projects are much more processed than my own, or the base song already takes too much CPU (as if you have a lot of synths and very CPU hungry devices).

Exactly. Opposite to your example, my tracks have max 3-5 short samples (kick, hats, maybe some short spoken sentence) and everything else is a lot of virtual instruments (native, RE, VST) heavily processed with effects, parallel and frequency splits, lots of automation and send effects.

I really need to start bouncing things, but for that to work comfortably I need at least 2 things:
- ability to bounce the track WITH the processing added in sends/returns, without having to: mute everything else, disabling the master inserts, bouncing the master,
- ability to disable the track (stop all the DSP processing) and hide it; I can obviously save the project, bounce the track, delete the MIDI & save with an incremental date/number so I can always drag it back, but it's very clunky.