Where Is Reason Headed?

[Oquasec]

People not interested in the Re format have a billion alternatives to look at.
Those who like this format, have a place to stay for that :]
It's just like how there's guys out there using reaktor or something or kyma.

[etyrnal]

Vsts in reason slow me down. They also slow my computer down. I don't think the developers who write vsts even bother to try to make their signal processing code efficient. It's like they all assume that if you have 12 cores on your machine, that they can use all 12 of those cores to the maximum assuming that they're VST is the only thing running in your composition, leaving no power left over for the rest of your arrangement. Rack extensions and propellerhead have always been extremely light on processor usage.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[ejanuska]

I think anyone hoping for a major overhaul for the look in R10 is going to be disappointed. I wouldn't be surprised to see some new features related to clips or live performance.

The code base needs to be totally rewritten? I doubt it.

[seqoi]

Vsts in reason slow me down. They also slow my computer down. I don't think the developers who write vsts even bother to try to make their signal processing code efficient. It's like they all assume that if you have 12 cores on your machine, that they can use all 12 of those cores to the maximum assuming that they're VST is the only thing running in your composition, leaving no power left over for the rest of your arrangement. Rack extensions and propellerhead have always been extremely light on processor usage.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

I can assure you it's not VST that slowdown Reason it is Reason itself i mean VST integration. I am working in postproduction for over 15 years now. Decade ago VST was buggy. Today leading companies are icing the cake regarding sonics and cpu perfomance. And developers aren't fools they do optimize their products (competition is strong).

Regarding slowdown of VST in Reason read my bugs reported (more to follow) and actually Propellerhead themselves confirmed issue and are working on a fix.

link to some of the reports viewtopic.php?f=47&t=7502998

p.s. i think Reason is heading in right direction. App is excellent and productive. They just need to mature a bit in VST and that's all. RE is already fantastic.

[napynap]

Good post, Goodbye

I've been using Reason for some time now, and this addition of VST's had me excited that PH was moving in the right direction.

You bring up a solid point. Why would any developer of plugins spend extra time on RE's when they can just make a VST that's compatible with a wider market of DAW's to bring more sales overall?

The answer will depend on Propellerheads direction. If PH will make RE's available to more DAW's then they will enter more circles of users whom have never experienced their products. Then, that would bring more exposure/visibility to their Reason DAW and gain more sales, potentially. That would give more incentive for PH to compete and add features/fixes that are missing from the current Reason DAW.

[Gorgon]

The answer will depend on Propellerheads direction. If PH will make RE's available to more DAW's then they will enter more circles of users whom have never experienced their products.

Lol, what? The RE development kit has been custom made for Reason and the RE format alone. The whole idea about RE is the perfect integration into Reason. You can't do that in any other host.

[EnochLight]

Good post, Goodbye

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[Goodbye]

I think the thing that a lot of people are missing regarding REs vs VSTs is that yes, if you are happy using VSTs and don't mind the clunky integration (compared to REs) then things are great and it will make little odds to you if you pick up a VST instead of an RE. BUT if you love Reason because of the tight integration of REs, the fact that from here on out you won't get any ports is a disaster. I have zero interest in VSTs in a popover window. If that was my thing I wouldn't be using Reason as there are other DAWs that do VSTs integration better.

And don't forget that a lot of people have invested a lot of money into REs. Which they can't even sell to make the switch to VSTs even if they wanted to because of Propellerheads' frankly disgraceful licensing policy.

[kuhliloach]

The bulk of my Reason plug-in purchases are Rack Extensions not VST's. I'll admit that I have installed some free VST's and recently bought a cheap one for use in Reason. I find that a Rack Extension version of any existing VST is ideal over running the actual VST. The better I get at production and mixing the less it matters.

[EnochLight]

I think the thing that a lot of people are missing regarding REs vs VSTs is that yes, if you are happy using VSTs and don't mind the clunky integration (compared to REs) then things are great and it will make little odds to you if you pick up a VST instead of an RE. BUT if you love Reason because of the tight integration of REs, the fact that from here on out you won't get any ports is a disaster. I have zero interest in VSTs in a popover window. If that was my thing I wouldn't be using Reason as there are other DAWs that do VSTs integration better.

And don't forget that a lot of people have invested a lot of money into REs. Which they can't even sell to make the switch to VSTs even if they wanted to because of Propellerheads' frankly disgraceful licensing policy.

So for you, no more VST ports to RE is a disaster? I mean, I love the native rack integration of RE's too, but honestly - if I have to choose between (say for instance) Spire VST and ReSpire - in Reason - then the pop out window of Spire VST wins hands down, IMHO. I can get down and dirty and program if I want in a nice, giant, GUI/UX, or keep it "in the rack" and just play - or program some CV in the VST Rack Device programmer. I'd hardly call it clunky, anyway. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely!

I dunno - I just never ever EVER saw things like VPS Avenger, Serum, Omnisphere or Sonic Charge's own Permut8 (which was originally made to be a Rack Extension) or Micrtonic ever coming to Reason, but now we have them. And we have them all.

What's not to love?

[Tweak]

Is what I foresaw some time ago now a reality?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7502969&p=349514#p349514

Imagine if it were possible for all instrument REs to be compiled to a VST!

[emilng]

I fancy that Propellerhead start compiling instrument and effect REs to VSTs, then start selling them via their shop. If they could have a write once, export/compile to multiple formats SDK, it would significantly increase the market size for REs (sold as VSTs) and might make the format more attractive for some. Feasibly, they could have the SDK export to other platforms completely too - iOS/Android REs anyone?

This makes the most sense and will probably be overlooked by most people focusing solely on Reason. It looks like their SDK also exports to the browser also.

I think long term their biggest money maker isn't Reason, but turning the shop into a central hub for all plugin creators and buyers. Focusing on Reason is like focusing on Half-Life 3 while ignoring that Steam is way more important to Valve.

[-008']

Come to think of it... In all these years, I've never known where Reason is headed but I do always like where we end up.

[ltbrunt00]

I always said I wished other DAWs would support the RE format. Like most things I don't see these software companies doing much development that throws something out of left field.

[Ottostrom]

I think long term their biggest money maker isn't Reason, but turning the shop into a central hub for all plugin creators and buyers. Focusing on Reason is like focusing on Half-Life 3 while ignoring that Steam is way more important to Valve.

That's a great comparison!
I don't mind the shift in focus as long as they still actively try to develop the perfect Reason

[normen]

The new Europa VST plugin could also mean a great prospect for RE developers: RE's being VST compatible by default. That would mean having a new market in VST land while not having to do one bit more for distribution or platform support.. Just like people use JUCE now they could use the RE toolkit and boom, you're done with platform pain.

[Raveshaper]

My prediction is that Reason will go entirely cloud based as a web app you can access from anywhere there is an internet connection.

DSP in Reason could become the most powerful of any host due to entirely offloaded cpu in the cloud.

Collaboration will be possible in real time within the same session.

Users will be able to piece together devices using a grab bag of common components similar to Reaktor blocks.

EDIT: development will be opened up to JS and other languages, allowing for unmonetized homebrew device widgets.

No? Just me?

[jimmyklane]

My prediction is that Reason will go entirely cloud based as a web app you can access from anywhere there is an internet connection.

DSP in Reason could become the most powerful of any host due to entirely offloaded cpu in the cloud.

Collaboration will be possible in real time within the same session.

Users will be able to piece together devices using a grab bag of common components similar to Reaktor blocks.

EDIT: development will be opened up to JS and other languages, allowing for unmonetized homebrew device widgets.

No? Just me?

In order to “off load processing” PH would have to invest in some of the most powerful servers around....Cloud-based? Sure...in fact, just like many other apps the authorization and verification of purchase (and RE support) are already there.... but think of EVERY other app that runs on a cloud-based platform....Photoshop and Lightroom are great examples. I believe that Adobe has greater resources than PH, and that if it could be done as you suggest then Adobe would do it. Working with large image files is at least as demanding upon the CPU as Reason.

So while I would absolutely LOVE to see a scalable solution, if Reason heads that way I see it as something Ethernet based where you can hard wire a Reason specific network to (for example) have all your instruments ran by one machine and all your aux sends processed by another machine, etc. Cubase already has a solution like this (and has for at least 10 years) that uses one bit of a 24-bit SPDIF connection between computers. I ran a second machine in my studio for years and used it effectively as another “rack mount” box that hosted all my convolution reverbs and other really processor intensive processors. MUCH cheaper at the time (circa 2005) than the $10,000 Sony hardware convolution box!

[EnochLight]

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[jetpilot00]

I left Reason for the last two years simply to try another workflow that had integrated surface control. That was with Studio One and the Faderport 8. I also invested in a UAD interface and Softube's Console 1. Each of those pieces of hardware and software, individually, are phenomenal. As a grouped workflow, I can't stand it. There are simply too many excess downloads, programs, security, etc. that end up killing the experience for me.

I brought up Reason 9 for the first time in a LONG time about a week ago (I have two young kids so it's not only because I gave up on Reason, I simply didn't have enough time). I can honestly say that I have had more fun and ideas over the last week than I can remember and it got me very excited to work in Reason again.

Here is what I want:

1.) An upgraded experience for the mixer. The concept of the visual mixer is the best in the business but like other DAW's, you MUST have the ability to put any VST / RE in the channel strip. What I see is similar to putting in a device in the rack. Let me see a visual of the EQ, Gate, Compressor, ect. that I choose to use, not simply an outdated visual of a modeled SSL where the sound is not endorsed by SSL. I think that was the big turnoff for most is that while it looked great at the time and functioned properly, there was no way to change important aspects while keeping the visual experience. If the Props plan on having a static mixer in the future, have more models that are endorsed by the manufactures and give users a choice. Very similar to the Console 1 but with drop dead visuals.

2.) VST reliability for the big name brands. Reason HAS to work with UAD, Waves, etc. I know a lot of people don't like VST's (I was with you for the longest time until I started playing guitar through the UAD sim's). To me, UAD plug-in's in Reason is the perfect combination.

3.) Surface control, surface control, surface control!!! If the Props could design hardware as tightly integrated as the Faderport is with Studio One, they would rule the roost. A new mixer design with surface control, IMHO, would be a huge game changer. One rule, however; design it to look like it belongs on a professionals desk and not my desk as a hobby. The Faderport works perfectly......but looks so cheap.

I love Reason. Have used it since V.1 in 2000. They just simply need to partner up with others and truly become the one stop shop I think it can be.

-JP

[kitekrazy]

I am confident that there will be big changes with Reason 10. I feel that they are listening to our concerns and adding features to make the interface better is one of the highest priorities. The Propellerheads want people using Reason. Now with VST support REs are a huge value add to their platform. I don't think REs will be outdated or made obsolete.

I'm not confident in that since they removed their forum. There's plenty of simple things they haven't addressed. Updates have been freebies and not workflow.

[tallrobphilp]

I personally find it a bit confusing that people here try to compare VST and RE as if they are a like-for-like format. VST is an open standard so it can be supported by any software that cares to implement that standard. RE is a Reason-specific standard that supports the modular system that is essentially Reason's USP.

Bottom line - there is functionality that is unique to Reason that is only possible in RE, and is unlikely to ever be possible in VST. That's a key difference, it's the reason (excuse the pun) that myself and many others use RE and it's the reason that RE will likely continue as long as the market/sales support it. We can all speculate based on zero real evidence all day long but that's all it is - speculation. Propellerheads have their business model and a company that's been operating successfully for about 20 years isn't making these decisions lightly or without thinking them through.

It's perfectly possible for the company to have multiple revenue streams, multiple different target markets (in-the-box Reason purists, VST users, hobbyists, professional producers etc) and multiple teams of developers in order to support all of this. I'm not an expert by any means but I've worked in the industry for a major plugin developer and I can tell you for a fact that the company will be thinking carefully about every decision they make. They don't want to annoy their customers or fail as a business.

I've been kicking around KVR for 15+ years (but only recently joined here) and there's a pervasive problem that will surely continue - every forum member thinks that they represent the user base and that if they aren't happy then there must be something wrong with what company X is doing. I assure you - they've thought about what they're doing a lot more than you have and there are many other users that have their own wants and needs and the company will be keeping track of that.

VST and RE can and do co-exist and Propellerheads have probably got plans up their sleeve that nobody even knows about yet. Have faith!

[Undistraction]

My prediction is that Reason will go entirely cloud based as a web app you can access from anywhere there is an internet connection.

DSP in Reason could become the most powerful of any host due to entirely offloaded cpu in the cloud.

Collaboration will be possible in real time within the same session.

Users will be able to piece together devices using a grab bag of common components similar to Reaktor blocks.

EDIT: development will be opened up to JS and other languages, allowing for unmonetized homebrew device widgets.

No? Just me?

I think this is so far from possible that it isn't going to happen any time soon. One device is not proof that the entire app could be ported. Somewhere down the line maybe but right now I can't see it in the near future. I would love it if I could script devices in JS - it would be perfect for generative devices - but this is actually the opposite to what Propellerhead have done - they are converting C++ to web assembly, meaning that a developer could (potentially) write code in C++ and deploy to the browser.

The idea of offloading DSP to the cloud and collaboration is just not feasible imho. One day, but not yet, at least not without radically scaling things back.

[normen]

JS - it would be perfect for generative devices

I guess this only seems like that to you because you're fluent in JS? What do you think the advantages to LUA or C++ would be?

[EnochLight]

I personally find it a bit confusing that people here try to compare VST and RE as if they are a like-for-like format. VST is an open standard so it can be supported by any software that cares to implement that standard. RE is a Reason-specific standard that supports the modular system that is essentially Reason's USP.

Bottom line - there is functionality that is unique to Reason that is only possible in RE, and is unlikely to ever be possible in VST. That's a key difference, it's the reason (excuse the pun) that myself and many others use RE and it's the reason that RE will likely continue as long as the market/sales support it. We can all speculate based on zero real evidence all day long but that's all it is - speculation. Propellerheads have their business model and a company that's been operating successfully for about 20 years isn't making these decisions lightly or without thinking them through.

It's perfectly possible for the company to have multiple revenue streams, multiple different target markets (in-the-box Reason purists, VST users, hobbyists, professional producers etc) and multiple teams of developers in order to support all of this. I'm not an expert by any means but I've worked in the industry for a major plugin developer and I can tell you for a fact that the company will be thinking carefully about every decision they make. They don't want to annoy their customers or fail as a business.

I've been kicking around KVR for 15+ years (but only recently joined here) and there's a pervasive problem that will surely continue - every forum member thinks that they represent the user base and that if they aren't happy then there must be something wrong with what company X is doing. I assure you - they've thought about what they're doing a lot more than you have and there are many other users that have their own wants and needs and the company will be keeping track of that.

VST and RE can and do co-exist and Propellerheads have probably got plans up their sleeve that nobody even knows about yet.

This is a great (almost) first post. Totally agree.

Have faith!

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