Where Is Reason Headed?

[Goodbye]

I love Reason and I've been using it since version 1 (in fact since Rebirth), but I feel like it's really losing its way. The very thing that makes it great was it's unique eco-system comprised of the included devices and, later, the Rack Extensions. I've been willing to put up with the limitations (particularly the tiny size of the items in the rack and lack of a zoom) because I enjoyed the limitations. But by adding VSTs Propellerhead have killed the Rack Extension market. Sure a few developers will continue, but why would anyone who makes VSTs bother with REs now? So now we have a DAW that hasn't been designed to work with VSTs with VSTs bolted on, and the thing it was designed to work with (Rack Extensions) dead in the water.

I'm hoping that Reason 10 will make some big changes - they desperately need to add a zoom so REs can be used at a larger size (some of the REs are ludicrously cramped) and hopefully they will find a way to better integrate VSTs into the rack, but I just don't understand the game plan. It seems like they have suddenly decided to compete with all the other VST-driven DAWS but are way too late to the game. And are sacrificing the very thing that made them stand apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong but what do other people think?

[aeox]

People will still make REs.

Maybe Reason 10 will have some nice improvements but there is currently nothing stopping me from doing my job in 9.5.

[QVprod]

Rack Extensions aren't dead, you're just unlikely to see ports of VSTs. But most RE's in the shop are Reason exclusive devices made by smaller developers anyway. Many of them will likely continue.

[davidvilla]

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they? VST support was announced in like April. So for the past 100+ days REs have been doing what? Sleeping? Have all the RE developers been on vacation? Are they STILL waiting to see how the VST release will affect things???

Anyway, I'm glad they can stop worrying about providing us with decent synths and effects. I want them to concentrate on improving the core Reason experience.

Oh, and yeah people will still make REs, but people are also still making Sega Genesis games.

[aeox]

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they? VST support was announced in like April. So for the past 100+ days REs have been doing what? Sleeping? Have all the RE developers been on vacation? Are they STILL waiting to see how the VST release will affect things???

Anyway, I'm glad they can stop worrying about providing us with decent synths and effects. I want them to concentrate on improving the core Reason experience.

Oh, and yeah people will still make REs, but people are also still making Sega Genesis games.

Some Sega Genesis games are still better than the crap they are passing off as games now days.

Even if devs stopped making RE, I wouldn't really care. I've got all the ones I need. Some will go out of their way to make RE because they really like the CV/routing possibilities.

Before VST support in Reason, people could actually get away with releasing pretty subpar REs like IDT and sampler stuff. Now the RE devs sort of have to think about whats already being done in the VST world as well. Which makes developing something new and innovating that much harder.

I'll be on the look out for anything from Blamsoft, because eXpanse and Viking 2 really blow all VST i've ever used out of the water.

[seqoi]

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they?

You may find it weird but i like RE version of effect/instrument to begin with when working inside Reason. I have more then 15 years DAW background on various platforms from Nuendo to Sonar, Cubase Live etc. I will still continue to use these because it is my job but i enjoy simplicity of RE.

Example Kratos Maximizer. I like RE version when working in Reason. It flow and works more easily then VST version (have that one as well).

My point is some people like me will continue and prefer to use RE. On top of that simplicity of maintenance is absolutely top notch. I have everything in one place. Trust me after almost 20 years of having constant logs of updates, maintenance files, copy protection drivers, failures, numerous downloads across mutiple DAW and platforms in studios - Reason RE simplicity and workflow is truly a relief at least for my brain.

I hope some people will still continue to produce RE.

Kind regards

[Zac]

I love Reason more than ever. It has taken me a little while to wittle down my mainly free vsts to ones I'll regularly use but I'm happy now with what I have and the snapshot browsing is nice.

Apart from the newish big RE synths which are just out of my price range right now I really didn't want much from the recent sale. Seems I have all I need for now, so I'm really not too concerned with where reason goes. Using the melodyne like feature to pitch drums is great fun atm, etc. I'm settling in to R9.5 and loving it.

[Loque]

I agree with the problematic decision to VSTs for RE. But in POV of PH it was right, it opens Reason to other users. It will be interesting how PH continues RE (they told they will do). IMO there is the only chance, to make porting between VSTs and RE much easier and coding of RE in general. As i noted from porting Spire and other devs, it might be a hard bunch of work just to make the graphics work. For me it sounds like devs are used to code in 20 year old ways, taking bunch of code and stuff just for a single knob. Under the hood, i dont think the core-code of engines isnt to difficult to port (depending on devs skill and architecture ofc).

IMHO, i like RE more over VSTs. VSTs are often fiddly, but i also enjoy having VSTs and sometimes i also like the still open window of the VST while scrolling. RE SDK needs some bigger improvements to get ready for future. I always thought, pls let me pull out my rack and leave it on the desk or why i dont have mono left and right cables and so on.

Due everybody knows, the code of Reason is around 20 years now(?), that means a hall bunch of sh!t is in there and this needs to be cleared and this is expensive and time consuming. Not sure if the architecture of Reason is fit for the future. The fact that we do not see so many new features per version is a high indicator for that problem and shows high maintenance costs.

[Innerst]

I also prefer Rack Extensions over VSTs.

Very glad I bought 'The Legend' as a RE instead of the VST version. My analog synth of choice should sit cleanly in my DAW environment and fit tightly with my workflow. Also I do not like cluttered windows everywhere and always run Reason on two monitors maximized.

For me VSTs can never compete with the lovely and thight integration of a RE.

For the zooming part I totally agree!

I zoom in the Reason rack using the Windows zoom tool. This almost looks like the old bitmapped computers of the 80s and 90s Amiga and the sorts. I guess proper zooming cannot be easily implemented by PH since most devices (except the mixer?) are based on fairly low resolution bitmaps. So PH redoing the graphics would probably involve vectorizing everything which would mean almost a completely new DAW front end.

[ejanuska]

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they? VST support was announced in like April. So for the past 100+ days REs have been doing what? Sleeping? Have all the RE developers been on vacation? Are they STILL waiting to see how the VST release will affect things???

Anyway, I'm glad they can stop worrying about providing us with decent synths and effects. I want them to concentrate on improving the core Reason experience.

Oh, and yeah people will still make REs, but people are also still making Sega Genesis games.

The devs never published REs at a very fast pace.

[PadShifta]

What do we get right now? 4 Racks, right? I posted this a while ago but I think it went unnoticed.
My solution for the future is a multiscale Rack with at least two Rack sizes (like in the real world). Starting from the left, leave the first two racks as they are now and increase the size of the two on the right by quite a bit.
This way, it stays neat and tidy in the rack and both old devices and new upcoming bigger devices have their place in the rack. I´m quite sure people would like that idea , though it is only a draft and could be fleshed out with even more approvements but I think you get the idea.

Let me know what you guys think.
Cheers

[joeyluck]

What do we get right now? 4 Racks, right? I posted this a while ago but I think it went unnoticed.
My solution for the future is a multiscale Rack with at least two Rack sizes (like in the real world). Starting from the left, leave the first two racks as they are now and increase the size of the two on the right by quite a bit.
This way, it stays neat and tidy in the rack and both old devices and new upcoming bigger devices have their place in the rack. I´m quite sure people would like that idea , though it is only a draft and could be fleshed out with even more approvements but I think you get the idea.

Let me know what you guys think.
Cheers

We have unlimited racks. And you can even create a rack to the left of the Master section

[pjeudy]

The only direction for Reason, is the direction that Propellerheads needed to go when they Surrendered and implemented VST's

...in my opinion they don't have a choice. RE's only helped to isolate and seclude Reason. Yes people know of it and use it , but I don't think that simply enough for Reason. I have been calling for Propellerheads to rebuild Reason from the ground up and then add VST support. They of course decided to get a little more market share by adding Vst first

But I still think there next move should be a new Reason look and feel. The crowds who are asking for things to stay the same in Reason and regret having to deal with VST's in there beloved wall garden DAW, don't represent the future of Reason in my opinion, but the stagnation of Reason.

[Dante]

I think propellerheads know better than anyone else where to take Reason next. So as always I will follow with their next great edition.

[4filegate]

The idea of buying a VST-plugin-synth for their presets is »a special« concept. Initialized or Init Patch, reset clears any pending errors or events and brings a system to normal condition or an initial state. One might think that the former has nothing to do with the latter.

[Ostermilk]

Ah, the forum Board is convening.

I love these kind of threads, as if anyone ought give a rats about any of my projections if I ever bothered to think about someone else's business.

I bought a product that I like to use, if it ever stopped being that I probably wouldn't upgrade at that point. Reason has outlasted any and all speculation up until now, so I guess, as ever, none of us know where Reason is headed.

[Nerveclinic]

My next biggest wish for Reason is a logical way to use it for Live performance, which seems doubtful given the CPU issues they are already bumping up against.

[Gorgon]

My next biggest wish for Reason is a logical way to use it for Live performance, which seems doubtful given the CPU issues they are already bumping up against.

Some sort of session mode would be awesome. And CPU issues can be fixed by optimization and I'm sure they're working on that.

[Goodbye]

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

I think @Loque is bang on the money. What we are seeing is a codebase that desperately needs to be overhauled, but because of complexity and age, it is probably far too costly a proposition. One of the reasons it is so stable (or at least was until recently), was the rudimentary nature of the graphics. Graphics are a notorious eater of processing power, so keeping the UI very simple and the resolution very low has allowed the app to remain stable. I'm guessing this is the main reason why they have neglected doing any work on the UI other than a quick lick of paint every now and again. But I think things are coming to a head - people have bigger, higher resolution screens now and the resolution is only going to increase. Reason looks terrible on High-dpi screens and will only look worse and worse as time goes on. In all honesty I can't believe they've left it so long to increase the resolution.

The addition of VSTs seems like a rather clumsy way of trying to add features without adding features. And to try and increase the user base - trying to lure people over by adding a feature they have had forever doesn't seem like a great proposition - sure its great if you use Reason and have a heap of VSTs, but I can't imagine it will sell them many more licenses.

Only time will tell if they have killed REs, but I think it's pretty evident. They have spent years trying to build up an ecosystem, then blown it apart by opening the gates to the competition. All these sales feel like they are trying to get as much money out of REs as quickly as possible before people totally disengage.

All of that said, I asked the question because I was genuinely interested in what people thought, not because I wanted a definitive answer (only people in the company know that, or maybe even they don't). It's definitely an interesting time. For my money I think they need to make some big updates to the graphics with Reason 10 and show they are really committed to REs.

Of course it's worth bearing in mind that the founders no longer have majority shares, so there is now a VC firm calling the shots (so more money but less control) and It's also worth remembering that they are aiming to release Reason for the iPad soon, so perhaps they are going to pivot to concentrating on mobile.

[EnochLight]

I have no issue with where Reason is headed. I still find it to be the most inspiring ecosystem for me to work in, so I'm good. I hope for new features in the updates, and I always get some semblance of what I want to a certain degree, though I'll always be left wanting more. I'm glad they added VST and think implementation is practically perfect as far as rack integration goes (though again, I'd love to have "more" CV, etc).

As far as zoom, all RE's are built with the assets to easily be zoomed in on 4K+ monitors and look great (this is a well known fact among most of us older members here). It's just Reason's native devices that need to be updated, so I'm not sure why they're holding out on that. Just spend some time doing the graphics, implement the feature, and just let me resize the damn thing on my 4K monitor. They don't even need to change how Reason handles graphics!

Eh... whatev's. When the next update comes out, I'm sure we'll all be excited to get it, and there will always be the critics decrying the end/downfall as they have with every version since 2.0. Keeps things interesting!

[Data_Shrine]

My feeling is that Reason is headed in the right direction ; we have seen a lot of updates so far on v9 and I hope this trend continues. Right now Reason feels a bit awkward, the VST makes browsing bloated, they're all over the place and not in their own sections. Zooming needs improvement. The UI is starting to look busy. It still doesn't downsample synth-audio (but does downsample audio itself) when exporting. The rack' graphics are blurry on Retina-like displays. I think that they will keep on improving, and at faster rate, as we've seen with R9 so far. If R10 doesn't have a better graphical engine tough, I will really be wondering what's going on in PH' minds.

I will keep supporting RE. I mostly use Reason rewired in another DAW, and I only use a handful VST in the master DAW itself anyway. I'm a sucker for stock devices, coz a lot of them can just do the job fine.

[seqoi]

It still doesn't downsample synth-audio (but does downsample audio itself) when exporting.

Excuse me can you explain what you mean?

[Tweak]

I fancy that Propellerhead start compiling instrument and effect REs to VSTs, then start selling them via their shop. If they could have a write once, export/compile to multiple formats SDK, it would significantly increase the market size for REs (sold as VSTs) and might make the format more attractive for some. Feasibly, they could have the SDK export to other platforms completely too - iOS/Android REs anyone?

[QVprod]

Lol, oh puh-leeease. If REs aren't dead then what are they? VST support was announced in like April. So for the past 100+ days REs have been doing what? Sleeping? Have all the RE developers been on vacation? Are they STILL waiting to see how the VST release will affect things???

Anyway, I'm glad they can stop worrying about providing us with decent synths and effects. I want them to concentrate on improving the core Reason experience.

Oh, and yeah people will still make REs, but people are also still making Sega Genesis games.

Before VST support in Reason, people could actually get away with releasing pretty subpar REs like IDT and sampler stuff. Now the RE devs sort of have to think about whats already being done in the VST world as well. Which makes developing something new and innovating that much harder.

^This exactly. I think we remember certain overpriced devices that took advantage of there being no other Reason alternative...cough* ReStereo cough*... VST support mainly means we wont be getting anymore REs like those. And of course ReSpire will probably be the last port to be made. Shop is mostly populated by smaller and new RE exclusive developers though.

Also Props go on vacation most if not all of July every year I believe so of course there were no new REs over the summer.

The addition of VSTs seems like a rather clumsy way of trying to add features without adding features. And to try and increase the user base - trying to lure people over by adding a feature they have had forever doesn't seem like a great proposition - sure its great if you use Reason and have a heap of VSTs, but I can't imagine it will sell them many more licenses.

Only time will tell if they have killed REs, but I think it's pretty evident. They have spent years trying to build up an ecosystem, then blown it apart by opening the gates to the competition. All these sales feel like they are trying to get as much money out of REs as quickly as possible before people totally disengage.

Actually the main reason a lot of people didn't get into Reason in the past was lack of VST support. While I can't speak for Prop's financials I can say we did get quite a few more new members here after 9.5 was announced, and not only because we hosted the beta. As for the sales, they're pretty normal around this time. It's not rare for them to have sales around commercial American holidays like many other companies/stores.

[Catblack]

I am confident that there will be big changes with Reason 10. I feel that they are listening to our concerns and adding features to make the interface better is one of the highest priorities. The Propellerheads want people using Reason. Now with VST support REs are a huge value add to their platform. I don't think REs will be outdated or made obsolete.