Combinator - why does it consume CPU?

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tobypearce
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17 Aug 2017

Using a blank template and playing a single note over 4 bars I with Thor, here's how many instances I can have before I get a red bar in the CPU meter:

Thor 350
Thor in Combinator 266.

Whilst that's an awful lot of instances, the difference is enough to put me off using combinators by default. If there was negligible CPU usage for combinators I'd love to use them more.

Any idea why combinators consume this level of CPU?
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Marco Raaphorst
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17 Aug 2017

tobypearce wrote:
17 Aug 2017
Using a blank template and playing a single note over 4 bars I with Thor, here's how many instances I can have before I get a red bar in the CPU meter:

Thor 350
Thor in Combinator 266.

Whilst that's an awful lot of instances, the difference is enough to put me off using combinators by default. If there was negligible CPU usage for combinators I'd love to use them more.

Any idea why combinators consume this level of CPU?
hypertheading on/off?

can you share the file?

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tobypearce
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18 Aug 2017

I had hyper threading on. When off, I get the message that computer is too slow. But even if I reduce the number of instances to a point where it does play with hyper threading off, the same principle applies: it seems like you can get way more instances of just thor than you can with thor in combinator.
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tobypearce
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18 Aug 2017

For some reason I'm getting an http error trying to upload the zip file.

It's easy enough to replicate:
make a totally blank reason doc and create a thor playing a note on each beat over 4 bars.
duplicate track over and over until you get the computer too slow message.
then do the same again, this time with that same thor in a combinator.
If you're like me you'll find that you can't have nearly as many instances before you get the message.
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Loque
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18 Aug 2017

To make a guess : turn off delay compensation
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tobypearce
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18 Aug 2017

This was happening before 9.5 Loque - I first noticed it back in Reason 8 :-)
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Ahornberg
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18 Aug 2017

As long as MIDI and/or CV and/or audio run through the combinator it will consume CPU.

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selig
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20 Aug 2017

tobypearce wrote:Using a blank template and playing a single note over 4 bars I with Thor, here's how many instances I can have before I get a red bar in the CPU meter:

Thor 350
Thor in Combinator 266.

Whilst that's an awful lot of instances, the difference is enough to put me off using combinators by default. If there was negligible CPU usage for combinators I'd love to use them more.

Any idea why combinators consume this level of CPU?
Are you putting one Thor in one Combinator, and duplicating that Combi 266 times? Or are you saying 266 Thors in one Combinator vs 350 Thors not in a Combi? If it's the former, it makes some sense, but if it's the latter then that's a LOT of overhead for one Combinator!

Still, that's a 24% hit for using a Combinator, which is more than I would have expected…




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scratchnsnifff
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20 Aug 2017

I combin everything I make to keep my sequencer tidy, Iv never noticed any CPU problems. But my question is, what are you doing with so many instances of Thor haha, I can get a decent sounding mix with 3 bass synths a lead synth a few samplers and a few more random synths I couldn't imagine what to do with so many instances :p also how does one check CPU usages on a Mac?
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Ahornberg
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20 Aug 2017

scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Aug 2017
I combin everything I make to keep my sequencer tidy, Iv never noticed any CPU problems. But my question is, what are you doing with so many instances of Thor haha, I can get a decent sounding mix with 3 bass synths a lead synth a few samplers and a few more random synths I couldn't imagine what to do with so many instances :p also how does one check CPU usages on a Mac?
Maybe additive synthesis :puf_bigsmile:



Fortunately PH already added Thor's wavetables to Parsec :puf_wink:

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aeox
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20 Aug 2017

Time to go uncombine everything :lol:

scratchnsnifff
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20 Aug 2017

Ahornberg wrote:
20 Aug 2017
scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Aug 2017
I combin everything I make to keep my sequencer tidy, Iv never noticed any CPU problems. But my question is, what are you doing with so many instances of Thor haha, I can get a decent sounding mix with 3 bass synths a lead synth a few samplers and a few more random synths I couldn't imagine what to do with so many instances :p also how does one check CPU usages on a Mac?
Maybe additive synthesis :puf_bigsmile:



Fortunately PH already added Thor's wavetables to Parsec :puf_wink:
Yep, not sure how I didn't think of that when I first read this post haha, I like doing small time additive synthesis using sine waves to make organs :D
And as far as PH adding Thor wavetables to parsec, I'm dying for them to add malstroms wavetables to Thor! Haha
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tobypearce
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21 Aug 2017

selig wrote:
20 Aug 2017

Are you putting one Thor in one Combinator, and duplicating that Combi 266 times? Or are you saying 266 Thors in one Combinator vs 350 Thors not in a Combi? If it's the former, it makes some sense, but if it's the latter then that's a LOT of overhead for one Combinator!

Still, that's a 24% hit for using a Combinator, which is more than I would have expected…
It's the former Selig. Each Thor is in its own combinator. I put one Thor in a combinator, then duplicated that combinator over and over.

It does seem a lot of overhead doesn't it. It's just enough to get me to think twice about using combinators routinely, which is a shame.
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ltbrunt00
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22 Aug 2017

I used to combine everything. I would in reason 7, 8 get the computer to slow to play the song message quite often. Upgraded computer CPU, More memory and added solid state drives which did not improve the issue one bit. I used to think that I had to many instruments/effects in my songs.

After reason 9.5 came out someone somewhere in the forums recommended in a post to reduce combinators to improve performance. I went through these same songs and removed most of the combinators and sure enough no more computer to slow error messages. I stopped combining everything and now rarely get the computer to slow message.

When I do get the computer to slow message now it is due to issues with VST instruments and Reason being new to VST. These issues will probably be worked out future updates.
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riemac
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22 Aug 2017

In my opinion it is a better workflow to put all effects in the insert of the mixerchannel. This saves CPU and you can open the fx very fast from the ssl mixer.

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Ahornberg
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22 Aug 2017

I'm lazy. I only put something in a combinator when I need the combinator's functionality.

avasopht
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22 Aug 2017

It's not much CPU when you really think about it.

Every device (including combinators) has to copy audio from its inputs to its outputs (2xinput to Combinator internal input port, then 2x Combinator internal output port to output port). Each device will also have an I/O port overhead, and if you're only comparing with a single waveform with just 2 filters then that's pretty reasonable.

If you compare CPU load with a Spider it just might use about the same.

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syncanonymous
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22 Aug 2017

I seldom use combinators because of the cpu strain. I am still using 2009 Vaio i3. Lately...wellll, this week, I started using combinators to more easily save patches as I evolve versions of songs. It actually works really well and avoids having to open up previous song versions to verify what I had routed before and retains settings. Then I just uncombine to lighten the load in the newer versions.

I do use spiders all the time, and do not notice a performance hit. I never fill the spiders though.
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miscend
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24 Aug 2017

riemac wrote:
22 Aug 2017
In my opinion it is a better workflow to put all effects in the insert of the mixerchannel. This saves CPU and you can open the fx very fast from the ssl mixer.
Isn't the mixer channel just a combinator?
Last edited by miscend on 24 Aug 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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miscend
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24 Aug 2017

The fx inserts of the SSL channels are no different from a combinator.

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Oquasec
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24 Aug 2017

I use combinators if I actually have a reason to.
cuz after reason 5 you got 2 combinators.
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riemac
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24 Aug 2017

miscend wrote:
24 Aug 2017
riemac wrote:
22 Aug 2017
In my opinion it is a better workflow to put all effects in the insert of the mixerchannel. This saves CPU and you can open the fx very fast from the ssl mixer.
Isn't the mixer channel just a combinator?
Yes, that is my point, because you've got a mixer channel for every instrument already. In most cases there is no need to put an additional combinator below the mixer channel only to combine the instrument with some effects.

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