Drum reinforcement: Audio to MIDI -- are these tracks lined up right?

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PDX
Posts: 11
Joined: 07 Dec 2016

25 Jun 2017

Hi -- I'm using Reason 9's bounce to MIDI function for drums, and it doesn't look like the MIDI tracks line up precisely with the audio tracks. In the pic, the arrows show the original kick and snare audio tracks, with their bounced MIDI counterparts below each. You can see the MIDI tracks are slightly behind the original audio. For supplementing drum tracks, is this how it should look, or is something (bad) going on?


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Carly(Poohbear)
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26 Jun 2017

I find it very hard to look at that picture, too small...

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selig
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26 Jun 2017

If you are talking about absolute drum replacement, where the originals are not heard at all, then a delay of 1ms or less (and some slight variation/jitter over time) is probably OK for most folks in most situations.

If OTOH you're talking about drum supplement, where you need to hear a little of both the original and the samples, then you'll need something created specifically for this purpose IMO, such as Slate's excellent Trigger in my experience.
:)
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PDX
Posts: 11
Joined: 07 Dec 2016

27 Jun 2017

selig wrote:
26 Jun 2017
If you are talking about absolute drum replacement, where the originals are not heard at all, then a delay of 1ms or less (and some slight variation/jitter over time) is probably OK for most folks in most situations.

If OTOH you're talking about drum supplement, where you need to hear a little of both the original and the samples, then you'll need something created specifically for this purpose IMO, such as Slate's excellent Trigger in my experience.
:)
This would be for drum supplement. Are you suggesting Reason's audio to MIDI is not suited for this task?

PDX
Posts: 11
Joined: 07 Dec 2016

27 Jun 2017

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
26 Jun 2017
I find it very hard to look at that picture, too small...
Click the image and you can access a larger view ;)

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selig
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Posts: 11685
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27 Jun 2017

PDX wrote:
27 Jun 2017
selig wrote:
26 Jun 2017
If you are talking about absolute drum replacement, where the originals are not heard at all, then a delay of 1ms or less (and some slight variation/jitter over time) is probably OK for most folks in most situations.

If OTOH you're talking about drum supplement, where you need to hear a little of both the original and the samples, then you'll need something created specifically for this purpose IMO, such as Slate's excellent Trigger in my experience.
:)
This would be for drum supplement. Are you suggesting Reason's audio to MIDI is not suited for this task?
Possibly! I've never tried it on drums - how does it sound to you? How easy is it to get clean triggers?

Audio to MIDI is a general purpose process, as I understand it. It's primary application is taking mono melodic tracks and converting to MIDI. In these applications, transients and timing are not necessarily the first priority. Pitch detection takes time, literally - you can't know the pitch until a few cycles have pass. Transient detection takes less time because you are not measuring anything - you're responding to a transient.

Drum triggering is a special case, requiring fast and accurate transient detection and the need to ignore certain other aspects of the audio signal such as bleed from other drums. There are other things going on that also need to be accounted for such as defining the fine line between triggering fast enough to track grace notes and flams while also not double-triggering on single hits. All in all, it's a very specific process that have spawned very specific tools. IMO this is one of those times where for the best results you need tools designed specifically for this job.

I consider plugins such as Slate's Trigger to be the top of the line, and they also include some stellar samples that are perfect for drum supplementation. Other options include the venerable Drumagog, and SPL DrumXchanger. SmartElectronix's KT Drum Trigger is a freeware option that's worth checking out according to what I've read.

I only have experience with the older versions of Drumagog (apparently it's much better these days) and Slate's Trigger. Hopefully someone else can chime in if there are any options I've overlooked, or maybe with tips on how to get acceptable results with Reasons Audio to MIDI feature!
:)
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sleeper1400
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Feb 2016

28 Jun 2017

does it sound lined up? i mean, fuck the graphics man...does the beat sound off or not? loop it for a few measures and make sure it stays on the 1.

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Location: UK

28 Jun 2017

PDX wrote:
27 Jun 2017
Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
26 Jun 2017
I find it very hard to look at that picture, too small...
Click the image and you can access a larger view ;)
I did but it did not really go any larger for me, anyway looks like you have some solutions...

PDX
Posts: 11
Joined: 07 Dec 2016

28 Jun 2017

selig wrote:
27 Jun 2017
PDX wrote:
27 Jun 2017


This would be for drum supplement. Are you suggesting Reason's audio to MIDI is not suited for this task?
Possibly! I've never tried it on drums - how does it sound to you? How easy is it to get clean triggers?

Audio to MIDI is a general purpose process, as I understand it. It's primary application is taking mono melodic tracks and converting to MIDI. In these applications, transients and timing are not necessarily the first priority. Pitch detection takes time, literally - you can't know the pitch until a few cycles have pass. Transient detection takes less time because you are not measuring anything - you're responding to a transient.

Drum triggering is a special case, requiring fast and accurate transient detection and the need to ignore certain other aspects of the audio signal such as bleed from other drums. There are other things going on that also need to be accounted for such as defining the fine line between triggering fast enough to track grace notes and flams while also not double-triggering on single hits. All in all, it's a very specific process that have spawned very specific tools. IMO this is one of those times where for the best results you need tools designed specifically for this job.

I consider plugins such as Slate's Trigger to be the top of the line, and they also include some stellar samples that are perfect for drum supplementation. Other options include the venerable Drumagog, and SPL DrumXchanger. SmartElectronix's KT Drum Trigger is a freeware option that's worth checking out according to what I've read.

I only have experience with the older versions of Drumagog (apparently it's much better these days) and Slate's Trigger. Hopefully someone else can chime in if there are any options I've overlooked, or maybe with tips on how to get acceptable results with Reasons Audio to MIDI feature!
:)
@selig @sleeper1400 -- it sound pretty awesome using this method, I was just curious why the transients don't line up exactly. I've used Drumagog before and this is far superior. Since you are dealing with a MIDI track, you can trigger anything Reason has to offer. I use a mix of the dry track and blend in 1-3 sample tracks of kick, snare, whatever. Bounce to MIDI is new with Reason 9, only downside is cleaning up the false hits from bleed or whatever when you convert from audio, but gating the audio track before converting saves a lot of time.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

28 Jun 2017

PDX wrote:
selig wrote:
27 Jun 2017
Possibly! I've never tried it on drums - how does it sound to you? How easy is it to get clean triggers?

Audio to MIDI is a general purpose process, as I understand it. It's primary application is taking mono melodic tracks and converting to MIDI. In these applications, transients and timing are not necessarily the first priority. Pitch detection takes time, literally - you can't know the pitch until a few cycles have pass. Transient detection takes less time because you are not measuring anything - you're responding to a transient.

Drum triggering is a special case, requiring fast and accurate transient detection and the need to ignore certain other aspects of the audio signal such as bleed from other drums. There are other things going on that also need to be accounted for such as defining the fine line between triggering fast enough to track grace notes and flams while also not double-triggering on single hits. All in all, it's a very specific process that have spawned very specific tools. IMO this is one of those times where for the best results you need tools designed specifically for this job.

I consider plugins such as Slate's Trigger to be the top of the line, and they also include some stellar samples that are perfect for drum supplementation. Other options include the venerable Drumagog, and SPL DrumXchanger. SmartElectronix's KT Drum Trigger is a freeware option that's worth checking out according to what I've read.

I only have experience with the older versions of Drumagog (apparently it's much better these days) and Slate's Trigger. Hopefully someone else can chime in if there are any options I've overlooked, or maybe with tips on how to get acceptable results with Reasons Audio to MIDI feature!
:)
@selig @sleeper1400 -- it sound pretty awesome using this method, I was just curious why the transients don't line up exactly. I've used Drumagog before and this is far superior. Since you are dealing with a MIDI track, you can trigger anything Reason has to offer. I use a mix of the dry track and blend in 1-3 sample tracks of kick, snare, whatever. Bounce to MIDI is new with Reason 9, only downside is cleaning up the false hits from bleed or whatever when you convert from audio, but gating the audio track before converting saves a lot of time.
EQ/filtering before conversion can also help - sometimes you need extreme narrow boosts along with cuts on either side to more effectively isolate a drum if not close mic'ed etc. But there's no free lunch there, because if you filter too much it may be more difficult for transient detection.

In Pro Tools my favorite tool for audio to MIDI drums is the Massey DTR, which unfortunately is PT only.
:)


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MarkTarlton
Posts: 795
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

28 Jun 2017

what I do is make a copy of the kick, snare, and toms and delete all the ghost notes and bleed so your left with only the sound your supplementing...than you have a few options... a clean trigger and/or pasting grid to just copy/paste it in by hand...old school!

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

28 Jun 2017

I wish Reason had a "convert audio clips to MIDI" feature - then you could use "Split at Slices" in Slice Edit mode to create a clip/note for each hit.


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ljekio
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

28 Jun 2017

If you want get rid of unwanted notes you can prepare audio source with any gate fx with needed threshold and release. Bounce in place it separately from main track and bounce to midi prepared wave.
selig wrote:
28 Jun 2017
I wish Reason had a "convert audio clips to MIDI" feature - then you could use "Split at Slices" in Slice Edit mode to create a clip/note for each hit.
Reason have it.

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