Yes, Virginia, There is a Reason Sound

[Oquasec]

Well he is correct in the sense of everything being coded to have a certain sound. some developers model their stuff after hardware, some model their stuff as digital.

[aeox]

also, what are you using for the bode diagram? could i do these tests myself?

[selig]

also, what are you using for the bode diagram? could i do these tests myself?

I'm using FuzzMeasure (Mac), but there are plenty of other options. The tech behind this app is called the "swept sine" approach, which produces very accurate response plots and also shows any delay, the phase response, and distortion components.

[aeox]

also, what are you using for the bode diagram? could i do these tests myself?

I'm using FuzzMeasure (Mac), but there are plenty of other options. The tech behind this app is called the "swept sine" approach, which produces very accurate response plots and also shows any delay, the phase response, and distortion components.

i suppose i'll need to do this in order to figure it out on my own.

i'd like to actually just use SSL EQ if i can manage just to save CPU. so i think it's worth the trouble!

thanks for the bits of knowledge

[fieldframe]

I thought the mods had set a standing "Reason sound threads will get locked" policy?

Whatever the case, I still consider the "Reason sound" to be the sound of Subtractor. And given that it's now a vintage synth in its own right (it's 17 years old!), I think it's every bit as valid as a "Roland sound" or an "Oberheim sound." It's the sound of early virtual-analog. It's unique. You have infinitely more options today, but you can always bring back the Reason sound whenever you want!

[aeox]

I thought the mods had set a standing "Reason sound threads will get locked" policy?

Whatever the case, I still consider the "Reason sound" to be the sound of Subtractor. And given that it's now a vintage synth in its own right (it's 17 years old!), I think it's every bit as valid as a "Roland sound" or an "Oberheim sound." It's the sound of early virtual-analog. It's unique. You have infinitely more options today, but you can always bring back the Reason sound whenever you want!

i still use it for my sub

[nooomy]

I don't know ... I was just in the mood to get doused with gasoline and set afire.

If there is anything to this "Reason sound" business, for me, it's that I have some difficulty getting really low frequency bass sounds and crispy, shimmering high frequency sounds out of the stock devices. My sounds seem kind of stuck in the midrange. I suppose there is some trick to doing this but I don't know what it is. I know it is not as simple as turning up or down the octave knob.

Now preparing for immolation ...

You just need to learn how to mix better.
Remember 90 % of mixing is volume the rest is just icing.

If you have mixed less than 500-1000 h you should just focus on balancing the volume of the different sounds. Don't use eq's until you have atleast 500 h. EQs effect on sounds are more complex than you think...

[Gorgon]

Well he is correct in the sense of everything being coded to have a certain sound. some developers model their stuff after hardware, some model their stuff as digital.

Yeah so? It still doesn't make any coffee!

[Ostermilk]

i suppose i'll need to do this in order to figure it out on my own.

i'd like to actually just use SSL EQ if i can manage just to save CPU. so i think it's worth the trouble!

thanks for the bits of knowledge

You're likely not going to get the same results from the SSL nor the RP EQ as you are with the Volko. That thing has a high-frequency shelf with a cut-off frequency of 40 kHz which means you are going to get a far gentler curve affecting the audible range (which is much lower than 40k). Why there's a diagram showing the SSL vs RP EQ's to demonstrate what is happening with the Volko's air band is anybodies guess, although I suppose the RP Q is also allegedly using between a 30 to 40k cut off for it's air band.

If the Volko is working for you it's likely because of the gently curved hi-shelf so I'd stick with it if you are liking the results. It works like opening a compass to its fullest width causing a wider radius curve which extends back into the audible range, which is why the top end boost gets harsher when reducing the cut-off frequency via the 2.5k to 40k control. it's not down to any magic happening beyond the audible range. It's a good specialist EQ as you'd already noticed because of it's gentle curves.

One thing I would warn against with using such subtle curves as provided by the Q3D is to make sure you are not just being fooled by an overall level increase, so just check your levels before and after.

1. the particular Air feature i'm using is on a free vst and I can't seem to get the same results ( on the Volko I put it @ 40KHz and crank it to 10, this is the sound i'm actually looking for which i can't seem to achieve with any other EQ or even ones with an "Air" feature) and I proceed to compress with multi-band compression afterwards.

2. i don't always want to EQ at the end of a chain where the SSL EQ is. i could easily just make it's own mix channel just for the EQ in a chain but that could get a bit hectic if you ask me when I can just slap in a free vst and get the sound i'm looking for quickly.

EDIT: BTW i'm thinking too hard about it now and i can feel my brain melting

Q3D though is a great 'finishing' EQ for broad adjustments to a mix or sub-mix. Don't fret about it being free either it's an excellent tool and plenty of people here would have been raving about it had it turned up as a $40 RE a few weeks back. And like any good device it's not necessary that if brings anything ground-breaking to the table it's that it does it's job simply and doesn't require a slide rule to work out how to get the result you want from it even if you could theoretically match identical curves with other devices.

[aeox]

i suppose i'll need to do this in order to figure it out on my own.

i'd like to actually just use SSL EQ if i can manage just to save CPU. so i think it's worth the trouble!

thanks for the bits of knowledge

You're not going to get the same results from the SSL nor the RP EQ as you are with the Volko. That thing has a high-frequency shelf with a cut-off frequency of 40 kHz which means you are going to get a far gentler curve affecting the audible range (which is much lower than 40k). Why there's a diagram showing the SSL vs RP EQ's to demonstrate what is happening with the Volko's air band is anybodies guess.

If the Volko is working for you it's likely because of the gently curved hi-shelf so I'd stick with it if you are liking the results. It works like opening a compass to its fullest width causing a wider radius curve which extends back into the audible range, which is why the top end boost gets harsher when reducing the cut-off frequency via the 2.5k to 40k control. it's not down to any magic happening beyond the audible range. It's a good specialist EQ as you'd already noticed because of it's gentle curves.

One thing I would warn against with using such subtle curves as provided by the Q3D is to make sure you are not just being fooled by an overall level increase, so just check your levels before and after.

Q3D though is a great 'finishing' EQ for broad adjustments to a mix or sub-mix.

i believe that diagram was just to show that you can get similar results with RP EQ because at first i plainly asked how to get "that air" sound from stock reason devices while i should have asked how to get that air sound that the Volko has.

i usually compensate for volume changes while conducting any tests, which i had done yesterday. in the past i've made that mistake and i've been fooled by volume

[Ostermilk]

i believe that diagram was just to show that you can get similar results with RP EQ because at first i plainly asked how to get "that air" sound from stock reason devices while i should have asked how to get that air sound that the Volko has.

i usually compensate for volume changes while conducting any tests, which i had done yesterday. in the past i've made that mistake and i've been fooled by volume

Yes, I can see that now, the principles are the same it's just to arrive at a gentler less harsh sounding hi-shelf curve.

I love the Q3D and have been using it for awhile just to gentle overall adjustments to sub-mixes and stuff like that and certainly cranking that hi-shelf all the way involves a fair increase in level which I usually compensate for using it's built-in output level control. As I say though with these things, much like 'console style' EQ's it's often about the handy functionality rather than any special audio magic that makes a device worthwhile and Q3D certainly falls into the category of being very handy.

The price is excellent too...

[aeox]

i believe that diagram was just to show that you can get similar results with RP EQ because at first i plainly asked how to get "that air" sound from stock reason devices while i should have asked how to get that air sound that the Volko has.

i usually compensate for volume changes while conducting any tests, which i had done yesterday. in the past i've made that mistake and i've been fooled by volume

Yes, I can see that now, the principles are the same it's just to arrive at a gentler less harsh sounding hi-shelf curve.

I love the Q3D and have been using it for awhile just to gentle overall adjustments to sub-mixes and stuff like that and certainly cranking that hi-shelf all the way involves a fair increase in level which I usually compensate for using it's built-in output level control. As I say though with these things, much like 'console style' EQ's it's often about the handy functionality rather than any special audio magic that makes a device worthwhile and Q3D certainly falls into the category of being very handy.

The price is excellent too...

agreed!

[selig]

I thought the mods had set a standing "Reason sound threads will get locked" policy?

I took this particular thread to be more about how to get a desired sound in Reason, not another "Reason has a sound, therefore it sucks" thread.
That's my take on it, fwiw.

[selig]

maybe you need something to boost @ 30-40Khz for that shimmer you are talking about, i believe this is called "Air"

i know you are talking about stock reason devices but try https://www.volkoaudio.com/product/q3d-eq/ and see if it does the trick for you because i use it on almost everything just for the 40KHz setting

<UPDATE>

I've just looked at this EQ - didn't realize it was a Maag clone. We have a Maag clone in Reason from Red Rock, BTW:
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... equalizer/

The thing to understand about this particular "air" band is that when you boost it you are ALSO boosting the overall level. At a boost of "10" you are also boosting the overall level by 5-6 dB! It was only after visualizing this that I realized what was actually going on. Here's what a boost of "10" looks like at all frequency settings (from the original Maag EQ plugin):



it is my personal theory that the level difference is why you can't do a direct comparison of this EQ to others. However, once you account for this aspect, it's super easy to get a similar effect from most other EQs as there's no other special sauce (saturation/phase etc) going on here. The main take away here is that you can easily get similar results from other EQs if you don't have this particular tool.

That being said, I also agree with the idea that sometimes you just want to reach for the tool that automagically does what you want…

[aeox]

maybe you need something to boost @ 30-40Khz for that shimmer you are talking about, i believe this is called "Air"

i know you are talking about stock reason devices but try https://www.volkoaudio.com/product/q3d-eq/ and see if it does the trick for you because i use it on almost everything just for the 40KHz setting

<UPDATE>

I've just looked at this EQ - didn't realize it was a Maag clone. We have a Maag clone in Reason from Red Rock, BTW:
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... equalizer/

The thing to understand about this particular "air" band is that when you boost it you are ALSO boosting the overall level. At a boost of "10" you are also boosting the overall level by 5-6 dB! It was only after visualizing this that I realized what was actually going on. Here's what a boost of "10" looks like at all frequency settings (from the original Maag EQ plugin):



it is my personal theory that the level difference is why you can't do a direct comparison of this EQ to others. However, once you account for this aspect, it's super easy to get a similar effect from most other EQs as there's no other special sauce (saturation/phase etc) going on here. The main take away here is that you can easily get similar results from other EQs if you don't have this particular tool.

That being said, I also agree with the idea that sometimes you just want to reach for the tool that automagically does what you want…

awesome! i think i'll actually just buy that RE because i really like the integration of REs.

i appreciate the help.

[Ostermilk]

Don't fret about it being free either it's an excellent tool and plenty of people here would have been raving about it had it turned up as a $40 RE a few weeks back.

Like I said although I was $10 light on price... I'd totally forgotten about RE3Q already existing.

It's not something I'd ever use many instances of on a single project and something I'd pretty much set and forget it where it's needed anyway so I'm not bothered about the RE integration here, not as much as a care about 50 bux at least...

[aeox]

Don't fret about it being free either it's an excellent tool and plenty of people here would have been raving about it had it turned up as a $40 RE a few weeks back.

Like I said although I was $10 light on price... I'd totally forgotten about RE3Q already existing.

It's not something I'd ever use many instances of on a single project and something I'd pretty much set and forget it where it's needed anyway so I'm not bothered about the RE integration here, not as much as a care about 50 bux at least...

maybe it's just the aesthetic that i really like about REs being all snug in the rack

[Ostermilk]

Like I said although I was $10 light on price... I'd totally forgotten about RE3Q already existing.

It's not something I'd ever use many instances of on a single project and something I'd pretty much set and forget it where it's needed anyway so I'm not bothered about the RE integration here, not as much as a care about 50 bux at least...

maybe it's just the aesthetic that i really like about REs being all snug in the rack

I absolutely agree, there's plenty of things I prefer as RE's, e.g. the pop-up window of VST's disappearing when you're doing other adjustments is just one thing to be said in favour of RE's...