The Importance Of Mono Reference

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selig
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22 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:Even my Izotope Ozone 7 suite has a Mid/Side ability to get extra clarity but I feel I truly need a real EXTERNAL reference like a Mono Cube. Splitters help, mono buttons with certain plug-ins seem to help, but nothing feels like it does when I actually had access to a real SPEAKER in a studio setting. It doesn't feel like 'real' mono.

If that makes any sense.
Not sure I'm following - mid/side is a stereo format. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

However…
Mono-checking a mix where you're messing with mid/side would be essential IMO, as it's really easy to mess things up with mid/side IMO. I wouldn't personally use mid/side on an entire mix, rather, finding it better for individual elements for some effects.

A mono speaker is really handy IMO, and so is a cube (single driver monitor with no crossover), but for entirely different reasons. IMO a full range mono reference is essential first, then you can add a cube monitor for checking the critical mid-range frequencies sans crossover.

Maybe what you're hearing that doesn't sound 'real mono' is hearing mono from TWO speakers (which I agree is not the same thing as using a single monitor). But that's easy enough to hear if you can mute one of your monitors when mono-checking.


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selig
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22 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:I just wish somebody would invent a one step plug in to compare Mono signals to a single/preset "Calibration" standard of Mono. That would make this whole thing much easier.

:/
I don't think such a thing exists, if I'm understanding you correctly. A "mono standard" is, well, just mono - that is to say, left plus right (usually also subtracting 6 dB to keep the overall levels consistent and not clipping).

There are really no variations on mono, besides what has already been mentioned regarding using one speaker to monitor mono (to eliminate the phantom center image issues).


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KevTav
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22 Apr 2017

selig wrote:
KevTav wrote:I just wish somebody would invent a one step plug in to compare Mono signals to a single/preset "Calibration" standard of Mono. That would make this whole thing much easier.

:/
I don't think such a thing exists, if I'm understanding you correctly. A "mono standard" is, well, just mono - that is to say, left plus right (usually also subtracting 6 dB to keep the overall levels consistent and not clipping).

There are really no variations on mono, besides what has already been mentioned regarding using one speaker to monitor mono (to eliminate the phantom center image issues).


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Ya know what? Every single POST I have made here you take an issue with. Or it's basically me sounding like a complete moron.

I would really appreciate it if you relax and stop reading into everything. You're seriously making me angry at this point. I understand you're trying to be helpful. But I want to punch you in the face at this point.

Stop please
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KevTav
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22 Apr 2017

And if what I said makes your "Moderator" hairs stand up....bounce me out of this forum. I can go elsewhere. The internet is REALLY BIG.
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selig
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22 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:
selig wrote:
KevTav wrote:I just wish somebody would invent a one step plug in to compare Mono signals to a single/preset "Calibration" standard of Mono. That would make this whole thing much easier.

:/
I don't think such a thing exists, if I'm understanding you correctly. A "mono standard" is, well, just mono - that is to say, left plus right (usually also subtracting 6 dB to keep the overall levels consistent and not clipping).

There are really no variations on mono, besides what has already been mentioned regarding using one speaker to monitor mono (to eliminate the phantom center image issues).


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Ya know what? Every single POST I have made here you take an issue with. Or it's basically me sounding like a complete moron.

I would really appreciate it if you relax and stop reading into everything. You're seriously making me angry at this point. I understand you're trying to be helpful. But I want to punch you in the face at this point.

Stop please
Holy crap, batman, I think you TOTALLY misread what I said!
Seems like a great place for the cliche of "That escalated quickly"!

Sorry to have somehow pressed your buttons here, it was not at all my intention on ANY level. Don't know how my post angered you at this level, but I'm shocked to read this reply! Especially since I was absolutely NOT taking issue with ANYTHING you said!

And if you "understand I'm trying to be helpful", why the rest of your comments?

That being said, I apologize for any ill feelings I may have caused, and can assure you I have no intention of causing you any pain or discomfort.

And btw, threats of physical violence are probably things you should not be sharing in a public forum.


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selig
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22 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:And if what I said makes your "Moderator" hairs stand up....bounce me out of this forum. I can go elsewhere. The internet is REALLY BIG.
Totally not sure where this is coming from. You've done absolutely nothing wrong IMO!

Again, I apologize for upsetting you so much with my response. Since I don't seem to have any recognition of what I could have done to set you off, I'll check in with the other mods to make sure I didn't overstep any bounds here as that's the last thing I would want to be known for in this online community!
:)


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KevTav
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22 Apr 2017

1) I didn't make threats of violence, I just said I wanted to punch you in the face. That's 1 out of 1,000,0000,000 likely of happening.

2) Being in this field for 20 years, you get used to Asperger'ish Audiophiles in the corner of the room raising their fingers in the middle of a discussion with "Well ummm actually...I have something to correct about your assertion Sir". But occasionally it irritates me.

It's cool man, just relax. Sometimes I say things loosely. Not everything is "serious business". You don't need to correct everything without trying to understand what a HUMAN is saying to you, in a human way.
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selig
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22 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:1) I didn't make threats of violence, I just said I wanted to punch you in the face. That's 1 out of 1,000,0000,000 likely of happening.

2) Being in this field for 20 years, you get used to Asperger'ish Audiophiles in the corner of the room raising their fingers in the middle of a discussion with "Well ummm actually...I have something to correct about your assertion Sir". But occasionally it irritates me.

It's cool man, just relax. Sometimes I say things loosely. Not everything is "serious business". You don't need to correct everything without trying to understand what a HUMAN is saying to you, in a human way.
There's no place for threats here, nor petty attacks and name calling.

You also show disrespect to those with Asperger's, on top of everything else.

Let's just skip the dick measuring and agree to disagree, OK?




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Oquasec
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22 Apr 2017

It's only annoying if they follow ya 24/7 with some DUMB ASS SHIT.
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Faxxer
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23 Apr 2017

WOWEEEE!!!!!

Mono! It's the new sterio ya'll!

~ike
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23 Apr 2017

tools needed for the turn to the dark side in this thread
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23 Apr 2017

selig wrote:I don't think such a thing exists, if I'm understanding you correctly. A "mono standard" is, well, just mono - that is to say, left plus right (usually also subtracting 6 dB to keep the overall levels consistent and not clipping).

There are really no variations on mono, besides what has already been mentioned regarding using one speaker to monitor mono (to eliminate the phantom center image issues).


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If only I could have gotten "attacked" with helpful information like this back in the day. Lol Would have saved me some time in the learning curve.
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Last Alternative
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23 Apr 2017

I've always wondered how you solutionize let's say guitars hard panned that almost disappear in mono. Somebody please explain that one. And yes, even after trying to invert phase.
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Olivier
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23 Apr 2017

moneykube wrote:tools needed for the turn to the dark side in this threadScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.12.32 AM.pngScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.11.57 AM.png
Please don't. Its not helpfull and borders on namecalling.
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selig
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23 Apr 2017

Last Alternative wrote:I've always wondered how you solutionize let's say guitars hard panned that almost disappear in mono. Somebody please explain that one. And yes, even after trying to invert phase.
OK, stating the obvious, the primary thing that's going to make a sound 'disappear' when combining it with another is either polarity or phase differences. Frequency masking 'could' also cause this, but I'd say it's much less likely in my experience.

So it would depend on how the guitars in question were produced. If you play a part twice (double it) and pan one left and one right, there should be no significant cancellation when combining stereo to mono. This is because there won't be any polarity difference, and any phase differences will be random and so will be as likely to boost as to cut (over time) when combined.

Are the guitars in question processed with any FX, like a chorus or flanger or delays? Otherwise, it's a head scratcher to me as to what would be causing this - maybe someone else has some insight into this they could share?
:)


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23 Apr 2017

I've always had this problem:
Double tracking distorted guitars. Playing the same part twice with 2 separate guitars, their own distortion, different pick, no modulation like flange or chorus - dry 99% of the time, HP ~150Hz, LP ~8kHz, always a sharp cut around 2.4kHz to kill harshness. One panned full L, one panned full R. Balanced good with the song in stereo.
Switch to mono and barely hear them.
Maybe it's an EQ thing? Bass too strong? Other frequencies clashing?
Although I'm nowhere near a pro, I am pretty aware of production by now.
I've read mono kills 6dB from the sides. Not sure if that's true or what but if it is then how do you get a good balance where stereo and mono sound great?
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Oquasec
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23 Apr 2017

Personally I'd just use a multiband compression config to touch juuuuust the treble but that's just me.
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23 Apr 2017

General question to everyone that mixes with mono reference: Do you have an external mono switch box or mono summing cable? I can't find anyone that actually sells proper mono summing cables. Seems if you want to go that route you need to build your own. Also, in general, what percentage of your time is spent mixing in mono?

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selig
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23 Apr 2017

ReasonUser wrote:General question to everyone that mixes with mono reference: Do you have an external mono switch box or mono summing cable? I can't find anyone that actually sells proper mono summing cables. Seems if you want to go that route you need to build your own. Also, in general, what percentage of your time is spent mixing in mono?
You need 'active' summing for mono, so I'm not sure what a mono summing cable is (you can't just use a "Y" cord for this).

I currently have both a mono button (Presonus Central Station) and use a Roland Monitor Cube (internal mono summing) for mono referencing.

% of time in mono is probably low, maybe 10 -15%.


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selig
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23 Apr 2017

Last Alternative wrote:I've always had this problem:
Double tracking distorted guitars. Playing the same part twice with 2 separate guitars, their own distortion, different pick, no modulation like flange or chorus - dry 99% of the time, HP ~150Hz, LP ~8kHz, always a sharp cut around 2.4kHz to kill harshness. One panned full L, one panned full R. Balanced good with the song in stereo.
Switch to mono and barely hear them.
Maybe it's an EQ thing? Bass too strong? Other frequencies clashing?
Although I'm nowhere near a pro, I am pretty aware of production by now.
I've read mono kills 6dB from the sides. Not sure if that's true or what but if it is then how do you get a good balance where stereo and mono sound great?
Mono "kills" 6 dB from anything panned to ONE side. But something in BOTH channels (even doubled) should sound similar in mono vs stereo. I've done the doubled guitar thing forever and never found it to disappear in mono.

My main thing in checking a mono mix is to be sure things don't change TOO MUCH. It will always sound different in mono vs stereo, so the goal for me has been to make sure there are no surprises!

Just like switching to a different monitor/speakera will make your mix sound different, as will checking in mono - in both cases you have to decide how much to 'meet in the middle' to make your mix compatible on all systems in all conditions. Sometimes you choose to say 'screw it' and just make the mix sound great in stereo. Mostly a personal preference thing IMO.


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23 Apr 2017

selig wrote:
ReasonUser wrote:General question to everyone that mixes with mono reference: Do you have an external mono switch box or mono summing cable? I can't find anyone that actually sells proper mono summing cables. Seems if you want to go that route you need to build your own. Also, in general, what percentage of your time is spent mixing in mono?
You need 'active' summing for mono, so I'm not sure what a mono summing cable is (you can't just use a "Y" cord for this).
Mono summing cable: http://silentsky.net/wordpress/archives/624

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selig
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23 Apr 2017

ReasonUser wrote:
selig wrote:
ReasonUser wrote:General question to everyone that mixes with mono reference: Do you have an external mono switch box or mono summing cable? I can't find anyone that actually sells proper mono summing cables. Seems if you want to go that route you need to build your own. Also, in general, what percentage of your time is spent mixing in mono?
You need 'active' summing for mono, so I'm not sure what a mono summing cable is (you can't just use a "Y" cord for this).
Mono summing cable: http://silentsky.net/wordpress/archives/624
Lots of caveats listed with this. Definitely in the "proceed at your own risk" department IMO.


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moneykube
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24 Apr 2017

Olivier wrote:
moneykube wrote:tools needed for the turn to the dark side in this threadScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.12.32 AM.pngScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.11.57 AM.png
Please don't. Its not helpfull and borders on namecalling.
:question: :question: :question: :question: :question: :question: :question:
who did I call a name... it was in reference to this quote "let's just skip the dick measuring and agree to disagree, OK?"
unless someone has a spotted dick sponge cake (which would be highly unlikely) it calls no one a name
:? :roll: :exclamation:
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24 Apr 2017

moneykube wrote:
Olivier wrote:
moneykube wrote:tools needed for the turn to the dark side in this threadScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.12.32 AM.pngScreen Shot 2017-04-23 at 12.11.57 AM.png
Please don't. Its not helpfull and borders on namecalling.
:question: :question: :question: :question: :question: :question: :question:
who did I call a name... it was in reference to this quote "let's just skip the dick measuring and agree to disagree, OK?"
unless someone has a spotted dick sponge cake (which would be highly unlikely) it calls no one a name
:? :roll: :exclamation:
Ah, no harm done then. Couldnt see which post you were referencing, so i (wrongly) assumed you meant you "spotted a dick".
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grizelda
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24 Apr 2017

KevTav wrote:
selig wrote:
KevTav wrote:
Ya know what? Every single POST I have made here you take an issue with. Or it's basically me sounding like a complete moron.

I would really appreciate it if you relax and stop reading into everything. You're seriously making me angry at this point. I understand you're trying to be helpful. But I want to punch you in the face at this point.

Stop please
sir you will benefit from the knowledge being dropped on this forum (as will/do i) by people such as selig but talking to these guys like that after you have posted something worthy of clarification is a real noodle scratcher. personally i have learnt insane amounts from being a silent observer on this forum and the old PUF forums and ive never thought anyone looked dumb asking a question nor have i ever thought someone was a smarty when they answered said question. cool off a bit friend we're all good here lets learn and make good music

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