To strengthen expansion, Verdane invests in Propellerhead, becoming majority shareholder

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noelcampbelljnr
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11 Apr 2017

fieldframe wrote:
Kategra wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft acquires it.
I can think of a number of companies more likely than Microsoft.

At the top would be the pro audio equipment giants. Which ones currently don't own a DAW? Then are the smaller companies that make music software. Ableton, possibly? We've seen Ernst and Gerhard in the same video...

After that you're probably looking more at mergers than acquisitions, with less established companies. I could see Propellerhead and their Swedish neighbors Teenage Engineering joining forces... come to think of it, why not? Seems like they'd be perfect for each other, the best Swedish music hardware company and the best Swedish music software company. Can you imagine a specialized Reason controller from TE? Or a hardware-based sequel to Figure?
A specialized Reason controller by TE would be great. I have and love the OP-1. But I just don't see that company purchasing from Verdane. I would imagine perhaps a buy out by a much larger company. Perhaps it would be the end of Reason. Only time will tell

scratchnsnifff
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11 Apr 2017

I hope they really focus on the Core program, lately I have been wanting the bv512 to get an update it'd be so cool if reason had something like vocodex :D
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ltbrunt00
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11 Apr 2017

Kategra wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft acquires it.

For me that would be terrible. Microsoft ownership would be cause me much grief.

I could live with someone like native instruments buying it. Lets hope PH stays PH.
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Oquasec
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11 Apr 2017

I feel like they leave the plugins as is because they focus on Rack extensions.
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avasopht
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11 Apr 2017

Native Instruments with Propellerhead, .. now that would be a powerhouse!

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Oquasec
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11 Apr 2017

That will never happen, and it never should :]
Rewire or emi for that one if you like NI plugins.
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jivemaster
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11 Apr 2017

Ostermilk wrote:
jivemaster wrote:It's not too big a deal when the driver is from the manufacturer, but not all manufacturers include them, and for those that do, those drivers need to be updated for each OS version. Granted Windows 10 is meant to be a long term thing, but there are many devices you can no longer use because they never got a driver past 7/8. ASIO4ALL is not ideal either, as it doesn't work reliably for all devices, nor does it handle multiple programs accessing the interface simultaneously and/or at different sample rates. Core Audio supports this and is far more flexible - hardware is built to support it, and any device made that supports core audio still works to this day (unless there's a hardware connectivity issue limitation).
The only reason to use ASIO4All is to run onboard audio with an ASIO enabled app, maybe on a laptop or something when you don't want to carry an audio interface around with you or some similar task.

Can you name even one worthwhile audio interface that doesn't include a decent ASIO driver on Windows?

Nope, and the reason you can't is because it's a contradiction in terms, it isn't a worthwhile audio interface if it doesn't include one.
You've perhaps misread - there are worthwhile devices out there that don't have a Windows 10 compatible ASIO driver made by the manufacturer, perhaps left behind as they focus on their newer products. Propellerhead's own Balance for example supports Windows 10 right now, but it's not guaranteed it'll keep working in future OS updates. There are devices I personally own from Roland that didn't get ASIO since Windows 8, and there's absolutely other brands out there where the same is true. Devices made for core audio on Mac need not worry about compatibility being lost - it's there forever. And even if this wasnt the case, it doesn't deduct from core audio's other benefits.

Goriila Texas
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11 Apr 2017

avasopht wrote:Native Instruments with Propellerhead, .. now that would be a powerhouse!
NI have good samples and instruments but as a company they suck imo. They're just as slow on development as PH imo. Maschine should have been had audio tracks.

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QVprod
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11 Apr 2017

jivemaster wrote:. Devices made for core audio on Mac need not worry about compatibility being lost - it's there forever. And even if this wasnt the case, it doesn't deduct from core audio's other benefits.
As much as I love OSX, unfortunately this isn't completely true. With operating system updates many audio interfaces sometimes have issues and required driver updates. Years ago My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 had drop outs on Yosemite (it had been out for a little while) and I had to downgrade back to Mavericks. There are also situations where if the Interface has any software based fuctionality. OS updates can kill it. My VRM box became a glorified headphone output with one update that killed the VRM software. VRM has also been discontinued

jivemaster
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11 Apr 2017

Thanks for this, is the Scarlett problem due to a core audio incompatibility with the device specially, or does it have its own drivers? (Edit: I see older Focusrite devices did not always use core audio here and here). Class compliant core audio devices shouldn't need driver updates because there are no drivers to install. I personally own the VRM box and confirm it works but not with the VRM software - but that's a 3rd party software issue, and not a core audio issue. It's still up to companies to update any accompanying software tools they include with a device.

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Kategra
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12 Apr 2017

QVprod wrote:
jivemaster wrote:. Devices made for core audio on Mac need not worry about compatibility being lost - it's there forever. And even if this wasnt the case, it doesn't deduct from core audio's other benefits.
As much as I love OSX, unfortunately this isn't completely true. With operating system updates many audio interfaces sometimes have issues and required driver updates. Years ago My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 had drop outs on Yosemite (it had been out for a little while) and I had to downgrade back to Mavericks. There are also situations where if the Interface has any software based fuctionality. OS updates can kill it. My VRM box became a glorified headphone output with one update that killed the VRM software. VRM has also been discontinued
VRM BOX works great on my Windows 10 PC (as it did on Win7 and Win8).

househoppin09
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12 Apr 2017

Kategra, I know it can be hard for us to resist gloating about our virtually infinite compatibility timescale as Windows users, but we really should at least try. It's not nice to rub it in... ;)

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eXode
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12 Apr 2017

Since people love speculation so much here's some wood on your fires:

Props are fine financially. The low numbers in 2015 was because they launched Allihoopa which was funded from propellerheads economy, we still don't know the figures for 2016. Even with the low profit reported in 2015, Propellerheads mother company, JUZENA Holding AB (formerly Propellerhead Holding AB) reported a profit of 5 million SEK in 2015, which would be odd if they weren't fine financially.

Possible scenario:
Marcus and Pelle wanted out, perhaps because of different views regarding the direction of the company and it's products. Ernst didn't have the means to buy them out on his own which prompted the search for outside investors. The majority that Verdane acquired could be mostly Marcus and Pelles shares (Ernst is still a shareowner, remember?).

What the future holds is anyone's guess. :)
Last edited by eXode on 12 Apr 2017, edited 1 time in total.

Goriila Texas
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12 Apr 2017

Good,now they got to get off their ass and improve Reason.

Pralijah
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12 Apr 2017

From the articles shared earlier in the thread, an iPad version of Reason is under development.
And the apps Figure and Take are brought under the Allihoopa flag, leaving PH free for new pad-app-developmements. Ernst says that they will give Android (hiring Android dev) a try but because its difficulties, he cannot promille that that Reason will end up on Android.

I am curious how the integration between Desktop and tablets will work and if ones RE:s can be used on tablet version of Reason or if that will probably be Reason stock version, at least to begin with. Maybe the tablet version will open up a new field of plugin-makers on that platform, with different prices etc. Who knows. But in some way I am quite sure there will be a synk and likning possible between the tablet version (with it´s plugins) and the desktop platform. Also to keep in mund is that more and more laptops ond desktop computers use a touch screen, and the smaller tablets are getting pro versions which is getting very powerful and you can use just like a laptop with a keyboard attached.
I believe the integration of the iOS and OS of the tablets will soner or later be better synced and compatible with eachother. Microsoft has made it further than the others in making almost same OS on all types of machines. Apple is not there yet, probably because they are deponent on the already large segment of iOS-apps in their store. But soner or later it and their Desktop OS will have to come even closer in integration, I guess.

For sure, Reason on tabletts will surely reach a much broader user base and the next generations. Their vision is to bring Reason on different types of devices. I hope that will not mean that Desktop version of Reason will fall halt in development. I want to think that they are targeting Reason 10 to bring Reason DAW to the new stage, from phones/tabllets all the way to desktops.
But Ernst says in one article that Reason will not be exactly same look on the apps as the desktop version, it takes a new approach, but that it will be compatible with the desktop version.

I do not yet own a tablet, but I still cannot see why it would be a bad move to broaden their outreach, when every other DAW are doing it.
And yes, I do prefer to use my laptop, but as the integration of tabletts and laptop/desktop will have to increase, we will probably be glad that PH is on that road already, to be in that process. With Ableton Link, you can at least use Reason interface on an tablet to push play and record and control a lot more too probably. Maybe the design of say Thor on a tablet will bring just that new freshness that makes one control filters from the tablet while recording on the desktop etc. There will be almost endless possibilities, if one look at the positive side of it. But as always when expanding, there will be risk involved. I hope they all know what they are doing. We will soon see the direction.
Last edited by Pralijah on 28 Feb 2019, edited 1 time in total.
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QVprod
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12 Apr 2017

Kategra wrote:
QVprod wrote:
jivemaster wrote:. Devices made for core audio on Mac need not worry about compatibility being lost - it's there forever. And even if this wasnt the case, it doesn't deduct from core audio's other benefits.
As much as I love OSX, unfortunately this isn't completely true. With operating system updates many audio interfaces sometimes have issues and required driver updates. Years ago My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 had drop outs on Yosemite (it had been out for a little while) and I had to downgrade back to Mavericks. There are also situations where if the Interface has any software based fuctionality. OS updates can kill it. My VRM box became a glorified headphone output with one update that killed the VRM software. VRM has also been discontinued
VRM BOX works great on my Windows 10 PC (as it did on Win7 and Win8).
Dude... that's just messed up. :lol:

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pedrocaetanos
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12 Apr 2017

eXode wrote:Since people love speculation so much here's some wood on your fires:

Props are fine financially. The low numbers in 2015 was because they launched Allihoopa which was funded from propellerheads economy, we still don't know the figures for 2016. Even with the low profit reported in 2015, Propellerheads mother company, JUZENA Holding AB (formerly Propellerhead Holding AB) reported a profit of 5 million SEK in 2015, which would be odd if they weren't fine financially.

Possible scenario:
Marcus and Pelle wanted out, perhaps because of different views regarding the direction of the company and it's products. Ernst didn't have the means to buy them out on his own which prompted the search for outside investors. The majority that Verdande acquired could be mostly Marcus and Pelles shares (Ernst is still a shareowner, remember?).

What the future hold's is anyone's guess. :)
Now, that's what I call speculation! ;)
Great research, great insights.

Two considerations in reply:

- The post-buyout decay theorem still applies :)

- Reason was conceived by the synergy of those 3 together, greater than the sum of the parts. With Marcus and Pelle out, the "spirit" of the product will drift away... for better or worse, it's more speculations... but I can say that after Roger Waters leaving, Pink Floyd wasn't the same anymore...
Based on a true story. No Musical Instruments Were Harmed in the Making of This Forum Post. | :arrow: SoundCloud set | :reason: :record: :recycle: :reload: :refillpacker: :refill: :re: :ignition: :PUF_figure:

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eXode
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12 Apr 2017

pedrocaetanos wrote:
eXode wrote:Since people love speculation so much here's some wood on your fires:

Props are fine financially. The low numbers in 2015 was because they launched Allihoopa which was funded from propellerheads economy, we still don't know the figures for 2016. Even with the low profit reported in 2015, Propellerheads mother company, JUZENA Holding AB (formerly Propellerhead Holding AB) reported a profit of 5 million SEK in 2015, which would be odd if they weren't fine financially.

Possible scenario:
Marcus and Pelle wanted out, perhaps because of different views regarding the direction of the company and it's products. Ernst didn't have the means to buy them out on his own which prompted the search for outside investors. The majority that Verdande acquired could be mostly Marcus and Pelles shares (Ernst is still a shareowner, remember?).

What the future hold's is anyone's guess. :)
Now, that's what I call speculation! ;)
Great research, great insights.

Two considerations in reply:

- The post-buyout decay theorem still applies :)

- Reason was conceived by the synergy of those 3 together, greater than the sum of the parts. With Marcus and Pelle out, the "spirit" of the product will drift away... for better or worse, it's more speculations... but I can say that after Roger Waters leaving, Pink Floyd wasn't the same anymore...
Yes, I agree that the post-buyout decay theorem still applies. I'm merely presenting an alternative possibility of how they got there. :)

Regarding the synergy I agree to some extent, but on the other hand there's a possibility that Marcus haven't been active in propellerheads for some time now, apart from being on the board and one of the owners. He started his own company in 2012/2013 and have since then released an app for iOS called Trolldom. Pelle is propellerhead main DSP guy, but considering the way their focus have shifted his role may have been changed. My point is that there's a possibility that this synergy have been broken for some time already. Again this is pure speculation on my behalf. :)

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pedrocaetanos
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12 Apr 2017

eXode wrote:Yes, I agree that the post-buyout decay theorem still applies. I'm merely presenting an alternative possibility of how they got there. :)

Regarding the synergy I agree to some extent, but on the other hand there's a possibility that Marcus haven't been active in propellerheads for some time now, apart from being on the board and one of the owners. He started his own company in 2012/2013 and have since then released an app for iOS called Trolldom. Pelle is propellerhead main DSP guy, but considering the way their focus have shifted his role may have been changed. My point is that there's a possibility that this synergy have been broken for some time already. Again this is pure speculation on my behalf. :)
On my behalf, I agree with much of your point and speculation :)
I'd say it can bet felt that the synergy have been broken for some time already.
Probably contributing for this final result.
Based on a true story. No Musical Instruments Were Harmed in the Making of This Forum Post. | :arrow: SoundCloud set | :reason: :record: :recycle: :reload: :refillpacker: :refill: :re: :ignition: :PUF_figure:

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joeyluck
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12 Apr 2017

Just something to keep in mind along with your speculation... Ernst is the largest minority shareholder. Which I gather means he's not the only one. Some people could have sold all or each sold some or any combination of either.

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eXode
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12 Apr 2017

joeyluck wrote:Just something to keep in mind along with your speculation... Ernst is the largest minority shareholder. Which I gather means he's not the only one. Some people could have sold all or each sold some or any combination of either.
Yes, but it could also mean that the remaining shares are owned by other employees. I don't know about propellerhead in particular but employees getting company shares isn't uncommon. :)

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pedrocaetanos
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12 Apr 2017

eXode wrote:I don't know about propellerhead in particular but employees getting company shares isn't uncommon. :)
Better countries than mine...
Based on a true story. No Musical Instruments Were Harmed in the Making of This Forum Post. | :arrow: SoundCloud set | :reason: :record: :recycle: :reload: :refillpacker: :refill: :re: :ignition: :PUF_figure:

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joeyluck
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12 Apr 2017

eXode wrote:
joeyluck wrote:Just something to keep in mind along with your speculation... Ernst is the largest minority shareholder. Which I gather means he's not the only one. Some people could have sold all or each sold some or any combination of either.
Yes, but it could also mean that the remaining shares are owned by other employees. I don't know about propellerhead in particular but employees getting company shares isn't uncommon. :)
Yup of course. Just saying it can be any combination of those scenarios. Selling shares doesn't mean any shareholder sold all their shares or more than another.

sdst
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12 Apr 2017

I think that Reason is going to the masses with vst/RE and will be on the top 3 Daw

and the hipster are going to emigrate

mind2069
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12 Apr 2017

Well Verdane is there for one reason, profits, absolutely nothing else, Pretty sure they absolutely have no interest in audio creative tools per say.

The only way that can happen is if they sell more, either reason, rack extentions, refills or a new product or service

Some possibilities

A new product or service that PH wil develop
Complete reason on IOS
Major development in the SDK
Major Development in the DAW
VST integration (make a rack object with a vst button and it opens the vst in a popup, the limitation would be vst would not accept cv or direct audio input, no backpanel)

And for those who say NEVER, you never know, just like we thought there would never be audio, PH belongs to verdane now, and profit is what matters

At this point we can just guess, but as a majority shareholder, they have the decision power, and PH are the developers, but they must have something in mind cause they would not have "invested"

Good or bad for Reason users, time will tell, whatever they do, lets hope they keep the same low bug quality Reason is known for

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