To strengthen expansion, Verdane invests in Propellerhead, becoming majority shareholder

[ltbrunt00]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

[RandomSkratch]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

I'll eat my underwear if that happens. No way they would alienate such a giant portion of their users.

[Last Alternative]

Reason 10 is next and they know it has to be a pleaser so with these added resources it should be a real treat!

[kuhliloach]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work while Macs, for years now, have shipped with a stable low latency audio driver that can be used for professional audio. If Microsoft wants to keep forcing users to install ASIO4ALL to get basic performance they are clearly telling the world: buy a Mac.

[Oquasec]

They could just buy asio4all and put it in there for once but installing it manually is something a potato could do.

[kuhliloach]

must disagree - ASIO4ALL installation and use is 1 level above potato

[Oquasec]

Well, if getting an interface is out of the question there's always wasapi & asio4all man.
Macs are boring to alotta people but for those interested in macs, they can get macs then.

Especially when reason itself, isn't that simple in the first place.
If you can use reason, you can download asio4all with no issues but both will not be as good as an interface.
XLR mics.TRS instrument connections. Daisychaining, and the like.

[RandomSkratch]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work while Macs, for years now, have shipped with a stable low latency audio driver that can be used for professional audio. If Microsoft wants to keep forcing users to install ASIO4ALL to get basic performance they are clearly telling the world: buy a Mac.

That's because the audio hardware included with all Mac's is the same (or has been for quite some time). It's easy to include optimised drivers for a static entity. Apple is a hardware company, Microsoft a software.

[EnochLight]

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work ..

Actually, the current build of Windows 10 now ships with a class driver for USB 2.0 audio (for the first time in Windows history), though it's only for playback right now. Recording will be coming soon, though (I would imagine).

http://www.techconnect.com/article/3184 ... ly#slide13

[Ostermilk]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work while Macs, for years now, have shipped with a stable low latency audio driver that can be used for professional audio. If Microsoft wants to keep forcing users to install ASIO4ALL to get basic performance they are clearly telling the world: buy a Mac.

LOL.

If you buy pretty much any audio interface you'll get a stable low-latency audio driver on Windows which will often significantly outperform core audio. I generally run Reason all day long with a 64 samples buffer without a glitch. That is sub 6ms @ 44,1 kHz measured RTL even over USB 2.0. It's Apple themselves that have been telling Mac users for quite awhile now, if you want a Desktop then get a PC.


Oh, no did I just reply to a Mac vs PC post? What was I thinking?

[jivemaster]

It's not too big a deal when the driver is from the manufacturer, but not all manufacturers include them, and for those that do, those drivers need to be updated for each OS version. Granted Windows 10 is meant to be a long term thing, but there are many devices you can no longer use because they never got a driver past 7/8. ASIO4ALL is not ideal either, as it doesn't work reliably for all devices, nor does it handle multiple programs accessing the interface simultaneously and/or at different sample rates. Core Audio supports this and is far more flexible - hardware is built to support it, and any device made that supports core audio still works to this day (unless there's a hardware connectivity issue limitation).

[Ostermilk]

It's not too big a deal when the driver is from the manufacturer, but not all manufacturers include them, and for those that do, those drivers need to be updated for each OS version. Granted Windows 10 is meant to be a long term thing, but there are many devices you can no longer use because they never got a driver past 7/8. ASIO4ALL is not ideal either, as it doesn't work reliably for all devices, nor does it handle multiple programs accessing the interface simultaneously and/or at different sample rates. Core Audio supports this and is far more flexible - hardware is built to support it, and any device made that supports core audio still works to this day (unless there's a hardware connectivity issue limitation).

The only reason to use ASIO4All is to run onboard audio with an ASIO enabled app, maybe on a laptop or something when you don't want to carry an audio interface around with you or some similar task.

Can you name even one worthwhile audio interface that doesn't include a decent ASIO driver on Windows?

Nope, and the reason you can't is because it's a contradiction in terms, it isn't a worthwhile audio interface if it doesn't include one.

[pedrocaetanos]

Fender

In early 1965, Leo Fender sold his companies to the Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS) for $13 million. [...]
This had far-reaching implications. The sale was taken as a positive development, considering CBS's ability to bring in money and personnel who acquired a large inventory of Fender parts and unassembled guitars that were assembled and put to market. However, the sale also led to a reduction of the quality of Fender's guitars while under the management of "cost-cutting" CBS. Several cosmetic changes occurred after 1965/1966 [...].
These changes were said to have been made to save money [...], it also resulted in a greater propensity toward mechanical failure of the guitars.
[...] CBS-era instruments are generally much less coveted or collectable than the "pre-CBS" models created by Leo Fender prior to selling the Fender companies to CBS in 1965.
The culmination of the CBS "cost-cutting" may have occurred in 1983, when [models] were perceived by some musicians as little more than attempts to squeeze profits out of factory stock. The so-called "pre-CBS cult" refers to the popularity of Fenders made before the sale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Mu ... ale_to_CBS

[pedrocaetanos]

E-MU Systems

In 1993, E-mu was acquired by Creative Technology (the Singaporean parent company of Creative Labs) and began working on PC soundcard synthesis. [...] In 1998, E-mu was combined with Ensoniq, another synthesizer and sampler manufacturer previously acquired by Creative Technology.[2]
In 2001 E-mu's sound modules were repackaged in the form of a line of tabletop units, the XL7 and MP7 Command Stations [...].
Subsequent products from E-mu were exclusively in software form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mu_Systems

Ensoniq

In January 1998, ENSONIQ Corp. was acquired by Creative Technology Ltd. for $77 million, and merged with E-mu Systems to form the E-Mu/Ensoniq division. The fusion with E-mu sealed Ensoniq's fate. After releasing an entry-level E-mu MK6/PK6 and Ensoniq Halo keyboards in 2002 - essentially keyboard versions of the Proteus 2500 module - the E-Mu/Ensoniq division was dissolved and support for legacy products was discontinued soon afterward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq

[avasopht]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work while Macs, for years now, have shipped with a stable low latency audio driver that can be used for professional audio. If Microsoft wants to keep forcing users to install ASIO4ALL to get basic performance they are clearly telling the world: buy a Mac.

That's not entirely true.

Any DAW could use WDM/KS instead of Asio4All. ASIO is a Steinberg standard and what Asio4all basically does is plug Asio to WDM/KS.

The high latencies associated with DirectSound comes from the fact it has to go through the Windows system mixer, which adds at least 30ms of latency (at least with kmixer), and at the same time just isn't well suited to low latency anyway. It's what applications use and is designed to make it more straight forward for simply playback of audio.

So to recap, the reason Asio4All is a thing is not because Microsoft didn't provide a low latency option, it's because DAWs are choosing not to use Microsoft's low latency WDM/KS, and instead target DirectSound and ASIO.

Also ASIO is probably a cleaner design.

[pedrocaetanos]

The only thing that would break my heart is if Reason became Mac OSX/IPAd only. That would be doomsday. Any other news from PH is welcomed.

Windows 10 still ships with a stock latency-ridden audio driver that prevents professional audio work while Macs, for years now, have shipped with a stable low latency audio driver that can be used for professional audio. If Microsoft wants to keep forcing users to install ASIO4ALL to get basic performance they are clearly telling the world: buy a Mac.

That's not entirely true.

Any DAW could use WDM/KS instead of Asio4All. ASIO is a Steinberg standard and what Asio4all basically does is plug Asio to WDM/KS.

The high latencies associated with DirectSound comes from the fact it has to go through the Windows system mixer, which adds at least 30ms of latency (at least with kmixer), and at the same time just isn't well suited to low latency anyway. It's what applications use and is designed to make it more straight forward for simply playback of audio.

So to recap, the reason Asio4All is a thing is not because Microsoft didn't provide a low latency option, it's because DAWs are choosing not to use Microsoft's low latency WDM/KS, and instead target DirectSound and ASIO.

Also ASIO is probably a cleaner design.

That doesn't tell the whole truth
All Windows DAWs adopted ASIO because in that time there was no WDM/KS. DirectSound was the only thing available, and that was considered "advanced" at the time, the previous alternative was even worst. The only way to have low latency was for hardware manufacturers to make ASIO drivers.
ASIO4ALL only became possible after Microsoft released WDM, and the target was low-cost hardware that didn't had ASIO drivers.

[QVprod]

E-MU Systems

In 1993, E-mu was acquired by Creative Technology (the Singaporean parent company of Creative Labs) and began working on PC soundcard synthesis. [...] In 1998, E-mu was combined with Ensoniq, another synthesizer and sampler manufacturer previously acquired by Creative Technology.[2]
In 2001 E-mu's sound modules were repackaged in the form of a line of tabletop units, the XL7 and MP7 Command Stations [...].
Subsequent products from E-mu were exclusively in software form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mu_Systems

Ensoniq

In January 1998, ENSONIQ Corp. was acquired by Creative Technology Ltd. for $77 million, and merged with E-mu Systems to form the E-Mu/Ensoniq division. The fusion with E-mu sealed Ensoniq's fate. After releasing an entry-level E-mu MK6/PK6 and Ensoniq Halo keyboards in 2002 - essentially keyboard versions of the Proteus 2500 module - the E-Mu/Ensoniq division was dissolved and support for legacy products was discontinued soon afterward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

[pedrocaetanos]

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

Verdane bought the majority, now they are the boss. That's an acquisition.

[QVprod]

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

Verdane bought the majority, now they are the boss. That's an acquisition.

Ernst is still the CEO. Propellerhead still has creative control. That's completely different from a company being sold outright.

An acquisition would be like Apple buying Emagic and Camel Audio or Avid buying Digidesign. They didn't invest and own a majority. They bought those companies out completely. It's also worth noting that both Pro Tools and Logic are doing quite fine.

[pedrocaetanos]

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

Verdane bought the majority, now they are the boss. That's an acquisition.

Ernst is still the CEO. Propellerhead still has creative control. That's completely different from a company being sold outright.

An acquisition would be like Apple buying Emagic and Camel Audio or Avid buying Digidesign. They didn't invest and own a majority. They bought those companies out completely. It's also worth noting that both Pro Tools and Logic are doing quite fine.

That is trying to deny the obvious truth: once majority owners, they can do what they please, they don't need permission from the other 49%. The only limitation is that they only receive 51% of the profit.
Granted I believe the contract states that Ernst is to remain CEO for an X amount of time. Nevertheless, now he is there to obey the orders of the new owners. If not, the only way is to resign.
And after the X amount of time is passed, they can fire him at will.

[pedrocaetanos]

By the way: having "creative control" means "we will let you take care of the details and the worries, just as long as you deliver us the promised big profits, regardless of what it takes to get there".

[QVprod]

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

Verdane bought the majority, now they are the boss. That's an acquisition.

Ernst is still the CEO. Propellerhead still has creative control. That's completely different from a company being sold outright.

An acquisition would be like Apple buying Emagic and Camel Audio or Avid buying Digidesign. They didn't invest and own a majority. They bought those companies out completely. It's also worth noting that both Pro Tools and Logic are doing quite fine.

That is trying to deny the obvious truth: once majority owners, they can do what they please, they don't need permission from the other 49%. The only limitation is that they only receive 51% of the profit.
Granted I believe the contract states that Ernst is to remain CEO for an X amount of time. Nevertheless, now he is there to obey the orders of the new owners. If not, the only way is to resign.
And after the X amount of time is passed, they can fire him at will.

That 51% only becomes problematic if they disagree heavily enough. Ultimately though, they're still going to listen to the visionary. As per the press release, they intend for Ernst to lead. Sure there's the possibility that could change in the future, but the fact that they invested means they agreed with the plan and direction currently in place to begin with. Time will tell.

Either way, assuming Propellerhead is going to fail because of this news is quite pessimistic. As I said, even if it was a full acquisition, Logic and Pro Tools are doing fine.

By the way: having "creative control" means "we will let you take care of the details and the worries, just as long as you deliver us the promised big profits, regardless of what it takes to get there".

Exactly my point. Propellerhead will continue function the way they've been, just with more resources to get those big returns. Destroying it's customer base would be counter productive to that. I see nothing to worry about. Even Reason 8 (as lacking as it was) sold well.

[EnochLight]

I think it's only fair to mention that those were acquisitions not investments. There's quite a bit of a difference.

Verdane bought the majority, now they are the boss. That's an acquisition.

Ernst is still the CEO. Propellerhead still has creative control. That's completely different from a company being sold outright.

An acquisition would be like Apple buying Emagic and Camel Audio or Avid buying Digidesign. They didn't invest and own a majority. They bought those companies out completely. It's also worth noting that both Pro Tools and Logic are doing quite fine.

That is trying to deny the obvious truth: once majority owners, they can do what they please, they don't need permission from the other 49%. The only limitation is that they only receive 51% of the profit.
Granted I believe the contract states that Ernst is to remain CEO for an X amount of time. Nevertheless, now he is there to obey the orders of the new owners. If not, the only way is to resign.
And after the X amount of time is passed, they can fire him at will.

I'm not sure you understand how boards work. As I work for one, let me explain: despite the fact that Verdane is a majority shareholder, they still need to have a majority vote on the board in order to get things done. Depending on how their By-Laws are incorporated and how many actual board members there are, this does not mean that a simple 51% vote = majority vote. For instance, the By-Laws that my board must abide by indicate that a 60%+ = majority rule. So, depending on how many board members there are, Verdane may need to sway other board members in order to have a resolution passed.

Just a thought. We're all speculating here, though, so... there's that.

[RandomSkratch]

There's a tinfoil shortage happening right now because of this thread...

[sdst]

Ernst is still the CEO.

Is that a good or bad news?.