Reason vs VST "sound" challenge

[Benedict]

Hi All

We have a big why does Reason sound dated thread happening. And it is so common that we have that "Reason Sound" accusation.

I must say that I am generally of the school that a tool is only as good as the person using it but I also have to say that straight our of the box many VST based DAWs sound big and fruity whereas Reason tends to be far less immediately exciting.

As an example, I will offer this fairly randomly chosen video as it is simple and represents what a common VST DAW sounds like with only a few notes happening whilst NOT sounding like a similarly simple Reason session:

What I would hope from this thread is not for more of that endless opinion (and sniping) but actual results. Can YOU deliver a comparable sound in a similarly simple Reason session?

I am hoping to see/hear some session videos/Soundclouds that not only deliver a similar sound (note accuracy is not the issue but similar will help) but shows how you achieved that using either stock Reason units (preferred) or RE (less preferred as harder for everyone to duplicate). Full Reason files would be great as would explanations of what tools were used to deliver that big "modern" sound.

My initial 2 cents is that I think that a lot of the VST/DAW sound seems to rely on a lot of Limiting, allowing the whole session to sound huge from the first sound. Reason tends to default all patches to -12db but not the same in VST-land as they can be hitting the pin from the first Kik and every sound after is just as loud so even two sounds are "pumping".



UPDATE

Sadly it seem that many aren't reading the thread and dragging it OT so here are the key advances to the core argument

and the FULL ARTICLE https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2017/04/0 ... vst-sound/

and an update I made to this article https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2016/07/1 ... re-better/

as a matter of interest, the initial samples in the NN-XT were stereo hence the initial "modernness"

There are also some superb examples of Thor sounds that rival anything out there in VST-land posted here by Massimo


I made this one myself https://www.dropbox.com/s/yktzy2bqejmzf ... .thor?dl=0

[Ostermilk]

Following on from your 2 cents I'd concur with your thoughts because if I render stems from a VST host and import them into Reason they sound identical to the host they originated in. But the Reason stock sounds are as you say tend to be at -12db which would certainly skew perceptions 'cause we all know LOWDER = BETTER.

There's also a thing around the stock synths and I must say I mostly use kHz One where I used to use Subtractor as it's easier to get a cleaner tone out of it with the added unison and spread stuff when I don't want Subtractors blunt and nasty violence.

Edited to remove worthless example

[Benedict]

I think we have proven enough times with the stems test that there is nothing different or lacking in Reason (or any other DAW) as they all cancel if no other goodies are added.

Tomorrow I will try to get a basic Reason session sounding like Mulab.

One thing I am concerned about is that in Reason I feel like there is only so much I can throw at limiters before they sound crap but in many other hosts you seem to be able to throw ridiculous levels and have it sound ok (or even great).

[selig]

I think we have proven enough times with the stems test that there is nothing different or lacking in Reason (or any other DAW) as they all cancel if no other goodies are added.

Tomorrow I will try to get a basic Reason session sounding like Mulab.

One thing I am concerned about is that in Reason I feel like there is only so much I can throw at limiters before they sound crap but in many other hosts you seem to be able to throw ridiculous levels and have it sound ok (or even great).

Which limiters, built in or RE?

Maybe Reason is doing you a favor by helping you to use less limiting?!?


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[centomila]

I've never managed how to make my sound good in Ableton (with stock instruments and effects) like i do on Reason. But i didn't invest my time on it like i did on reason. I suppose that's the problem with all this kind of test,

Anyway we can't evaluate a DAW for the best "out of the box sound", otherwise random apps like Auxy or Figure iOS can crush Ableton, Logic, Reason and Studio One.

[Oquasec]

Stock plugins and presets don't sound liek thirdparty presets or sounds big whoop.
That's why thirdparty exists for all daws.

But I've spent more time on the technical side of things [Learning sound design and signal flow] with modular based daws moreso than regular ones myself as I find those more fun in the long run.

[FLVZ]

I don't understand what the point of this is. In the example you've provided the guy is using Rewire to access 3rd party synths from another software. The levels are hot, I don't think this sound is all that impressive tbh. You can easily accomplish what he is doing with a few NN19 & NNXT patches, and if you know your way around designing drums in Kong can easily attain a similar generic club kit?

The immediate excitement aspect is largely associate with loudness and suddenness of the changes in volume. Add in a side-chain to emphasise this by lowering signal so you can hear the excitable percussion hit cleanly and a few delayed plucks (which are also excitable sounds by dynamic). This test or challenge doesn't really go much deeper than A/B things in a simplistic manner. The sounds in Reaper or Mulab may largely be uninteresting and he may have selected one or two of the more interesting patches for this video so we don't get to see that side of things either.

Now speaking in terms of VSTs and the popular choices, they are developed by product specialists. Rob Papen and his team only have to worry about making the instrument and its patches. Propellerhead have the instruments and then some...

[AzureEyes]

One thing I've noticed from Expanse & Zero is that these are capable of making Serum, Massive style sounds. The thing that is missing is a OTT compressor. That cleans the high band and boosts it with a presence. Also Expanse really needs Oscillator routing FM (Example:Oscillator 2 can route into Oscillator 1 and frequency modulate it) As for Zero. Maybe an update that gives it an effect chain like Expanse but of course keep the effects still there and put them into a panel system. I'm sure Andrew (Blamsoft) has incredible plans for these two monster Res! These have that VST sound that people want. Antidote sounds almost exactly like Dune 2!


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[Oquasec]

OTT compression setting for the multiband compressor.. it has harsh upwards/downwards compression to make leads and stuff sound different.
So Maybe a compressor with some high adsr?

[AzureEyes]

I already tried it with a sound from Expanse in Logic with SerumFX. I just used the OTT comp and it sounds amazing!


Reason needs it own dedicated OTT multiband compressor!


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[AzureEyes]

I already tried it with a sound from Expanse in Logic with SerumFX. I just used the OTT comp and it sounds amazing!


Reason needs it own dedicated OTT multiband compressor!

Selig or Red Rock Sound! I'm looking at you two!


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[AzureEyes]

I already tried it with a sound from Expanse in Logic with SerumFX. I just used the OTT comp and it sounds amazing!


Reason needs it own dedicated OTT multiband compressor!



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Selig & Red Rock Sound. I'm looking at you two!

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Also this would help for those EDM styles of music. Anything else is fine. People use OTT compressors on their master too in Ableton!

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[Oquasec]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

[AzureEyes]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

M-Class is a basic compressor. This does a lot more then that!


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[selig]

OTT comments by Steve Duda (responding to questions about how to recreate OTT):

All of the settings of OTT are quite visible, and if you want to learn then I would start with taking a close look at understanding the source prior to trying to imitate it.

The main part of the sound is the upward compression (and the tough part to reproduce with a typical compressor) is applying (up to 36 dB but not more) of gain to a quiet (below threshold) signal. this brings up quiet detail (usually high frequencies otherwise unheard)... the while also providing the typical multiband compression duty of "ironing" (consistent lows/mids/highs).
I'm not really much of a historian/trivia type, but it's a preset in Ableton Live multiband dynamics. It somehow got somewhat popular in the more aggressive music styles for years (dubstep etc), it tends to brighten sound (relatively bring up mids, and highs in particular). Good for 'in your face' stuff and of course like anything involves tradeoff (loss of dynamics, brash/brittle sound, ear fatigue). But everything has a time and place..

I have to assume you're familiar with the concept of a multiband compressor. It's doing that (making signals above a threshold quieter) but then also upwards making signals below a threshold louder (signal below ~-40 dB will get louder, but this boost is capped to +36 dB so you hopefully don't hear too much unwanted noise).

This upward part is the more important part, it's bringing up stuff that normally you wouldn't hear so much (for instance, highs on a snare drum might go from "dull" to "sizzle", or a filter LFO on a synth goes from "wooOoWww" to "GNARSH#&#").

Really that's about all I have to say, as I mentioned to OP, you should simply use your ears and run your own tests/experiments if you want to learn, that's 100x better than reading my summary. As I said before you can see all the specifics yourself, they're all quite visible in the original preset.


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[FLVZ]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

M-Class is a basic compressor. This does a lot more then that!


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I think he means this OTT compressor can be achieved easily in a combinator to emulate the multiband nature and the dry/wet aspects of the signal chain. I think the most important thing is identifying what makes this (OTT) compressor the right one for the job in terms of character and colouration of sound. Otherwise this looks like any old mb comp with a dry/wet control

[selig]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

M-Class is a basic compressor. This does a lot more then that!


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I think he means this OTT compressor can be achieved easily in a combinator to emulate the multiband nature and the dry/wet aspects of the signal chain. I think the most important thing is identifying what makes this (OTT) compressor the right one for the job in terms of character and colouration of sound. Otherwise this looks like any old mb comp with a dry/wet control

Again, relevant bit reposted from above:
"The main part of the sound is the upward compression (and the tough part to reproduce with a typical compressor) is applying (up to 36 dB but not more) of gain to a quiet (below threshold) signal."


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[FLVZ]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

M-Class is a basic compressor. This does a lot more then that!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think he means this OTT compressor can be achieved easily in a combinator to emulate the multiband nature and the dry/wet aspects of the signal chain. I think the most important thing is identifying what makes this (OTT) compressor the right one for the job in terms of character and colouration of sound. Otherwise this looks like any old mb comp with a dry/wet control

Again, relevant bit reposted from above:
"The main part of the sound is the upward compression (and the tough part to reproduce with a typical compressor) is applying (up to 36 dB but not more) of gain to a quiet (below threshold) signal."


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I literally saw your post after posting my comment, but there we go. This can be done in a combinator with an array of compressors, you may possibly even get better sound in reason due to the flexibilities afforded by the combinator.

[Oquasec]

All these things are methods dude.
You wouldn't even need a combinator, that' just a cleaner way of doing it but you could spider a compressor to 4 equalizers into the mixer to achieve that crap lmfao.

[In any daw, but reason & caustic use the literal layout for things]

[FLVZ]

All these things are methods dude.
You wouldn't even need a combinator, that' just a cleaner way of doing it but you could spider a compressor to 4 equalizers into the mixer to achieve that crap lmfao.

[In any daw, but reason & caustic use the literal layout for things]

The whole dry/wet thing becomes easier when its just one function you're dealing with to implement, but yeah. There are 100 ways to build a multiband comp

[Oquasec]

That's the appeal of reason & modular to me.
That incredibly literal layout all of that has is what kept me using it since 2012

[AzureEyes]

So it looks like... a multiband compressor that uses high gain on a quiet soundsource to get that sound.
Alright then an instance of mclass compressor would be enough

M-Class is a basic compressor. This does a lot more then that!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think he means this OTT compressor can be achieved easily in a combinator to emulate the multiband nature and the dry/wet aspects of the signal chain. I think the most important thing is identifying what makes this (OTT) compressor the right one for the job in terms of character and colouration of sound. Otherwise this looks like any old mb comp with a dry/wet control

Again, relevant bit reposted from above:
"The main part of the sound is the upward compression (and the tough part to reproduce with a typical compressor) is applying (up to 36 dB but not more) of gain to a quiet (below threshold) signal."


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I literally saw your post after posting my comment, but there we go. This can be done in a combinator with an array of compressors, you may possibly even get better sound in reason due to the flexibilities afforded by the combinator.

Not everyone wants to build a Combinator for everything though. People want to make their music and sounds. Not build Combinator a and make their rack a total mess with Combis. Yes this is the way we had to do it in 2000-2011 but still a single OTT Re would do wonders on EDM centric sounds!


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[chimp_spanner]

Well FWIW, I've just finished mixing 11 tracks for an album that spans a little bit of retro, 80s rock/metal, synthwave and one or two modern chill/electronic pieces and I honestly can't fault Reason at all. For the most part I've tried to just use simple signal chains. I think I only used a Combinator like, a couple of times? And that was literally to just layer two or three presets. Otherwise I'm just using the devices as they come and mixing with the SSL. Any shortcomings in the mix are, IMO, down to my experience level. This is especially reinforced by the fact that the two most recent tracks I mixed are, IMO, way way better. But only as a result of sitting down and doing a little research and watching videos.

Of course if we're talking about Reason sounds straight out of the box with no third party REs? Well I mean, I wouldn't expect Cubase Pro 9 to sound good without VSTs (and it doesn't). So really what we're comparing (because it's obviously not anything as fundamental as audio engines) is the quality of sounds you *can* get, either from third party extensions or just from using your own mixing skills. And from working on this album I can say that as far as I'm concerned, Reason has no problem!

I'll share more when I can. I think we're putting together a teaser thing ahead of the release so hopefully that'll kinda give an insight into the sounds.

[Benedict]

All due respect guys (and girls for all I know) but it seems everyone is off-topic.

In the OP I thought I made it clear that:

What I would hope from this thread is not for more of that endless opinion (and sniping) but actual results. Can YOU deliver a comparable sound in a similarly simple Reason session?

There are a trillion threads where people give those if only we had a muti-schlonged sprongulator like in DAW X, use a Combi, my mixes sound great, your example is crap because I don't like it, trance sucks... opinions and you are welcome to post in them.

I was really hoping that here we might rise to providing REAL ANSWERS with proof of examples just as some of us have in the past with the stems tests.

Does anyone have anything valid to offer or should I stop wasting my (and your) time?

:-I

[Oquasec]

Has this site always been this active?