Pan knob acting as Dry/Wet knob

[CYSYS8993]

Hi, I've been trying to set the pan levels for my WIP song's tracks, but for some reason the knobs act more like Dry/Wet knobs for some send effect like Delay/Reverb. What's going on here?

[Loque]

I think you need to change post/pre fader settings in the mixer.

[RandomSkratch]

Hi, I've been trying to set the pan levels for my WIP song's tracks, but for some reason the knobs act more like Dry/Wet knobs for some send effect like Delay/Reverb. What's going on here?

Can you post a picture of the rack?

[selig]

I would ask what specific effects you're hearing this on, and how you have them wired up. The sends "follow" the pan knobs such that if you pan the signal to the left you'll also send to the left. One possible scenario could be that you're using an effect such as a stereo delay that has a short delay on one side and a longer delay on the other (or something similar), and panning the channel to the short side sounds "dry" and the long side sounds "wet".

Just shooting in the dark here unless you can give a few more specifics.

[dustmoses]

The pan knob sucks IMO, it's got a different behavior than I would expect.

If you can swing it I use Selig Gain for all panning: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-gain/
$19, also in one of the rigs.

Quadelectra Stereo Splitter is only $9 if you're real broke, I've used Selig Gain since I bought it for panning though.
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/stereo-splitter/

Selig has explained the weirdness of the built in pan knob before.

[RandomSkratch]

The pan knob sucks IMO, it's got a different behavior than I would expect.

Selig has explained the weirdness of the built in pan knob before.

Say what?

[ScuzzyEye]

The pan knob sucks IMO, it's got a different behavior than I would expect.

Selig has explained the weirdness of the built in pan knob before.

Say what?

The Reason Mixer pan knob reduces the level of the side you're panning to. So if you hard pan left, the input to the left channel completely disappears. The way you're supposed to work with the Pan control is to involve the Width control too. If you reduce the width to 0, it will collapse the left and right together, and then you can hard pan left and not lose anything.

There is a little clue in the lights around the pan knob. If you're pushing lights off the edge, you're losing content. If you reduce the width so the lights don't completely surround the knob you can pan as far as the lights show without loss. If you want to pan further, you have to reduce the width further.

Selig Gain has two pan pots to control how much of the left input is mixed into the left and right channel, and the same for the right. This is the more traditional panning system.

Both systems can get you just about the same results*, but you have to understand what Reason is doing.

*You can't pan the left to the right, and the right to the left using Reason's pan control, but you can with Selig Gain.

[selig]

The pan knob sucks IMO, it's got a different behavior than I would expect.

Selig has explained the weirdness of the built in pan knob before.

Say what?

The Reason Mixer pan knob reduces the level of the side you're panning to. So if you hard pan left, the input to the left channel completely disappears. The way you're supposed to work with the Pan control is to involve the Width control too. If you reduce the width to 0, it will collapse the left and right together, and then you can hard pan left and not lose anything.

There is a little clue in the lights around the pan knob. If you're pushing lights off the edge, you're losing content. If you reduce the width so the lights don't completely surround the knob you can pan as far as the lights show without loss. If you want to pan further, you have to reduce the width further.

Selig Gain has two pan pots to control how much of the left input is mixed into the left and right channel, and the same for the right. This is the more traditional panning system.

Both systems can get you just about the same results*, but you have to understand what Reason is doing.

*You can't pan the left to the right, and the right to the left using Reason's pan control, but you can with Selig Gain.

To expand on this a little…

This is only an issue with stereo signals, mono signals pan as expected.

Also, with the 14:2 and Line Mixer, there is no "Width" control so you can't compensate for the 'disappearing' channel on those mixers.

And finally, I've tried to understand exactly how the Width control relates to position, to no avail. For example, what Pan/Width setting gives you the equivalent of one channel panned to the side and one to center? Wish there was more information on this subject.



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[ScuzzyEye]

To expand on this a little…

This is only an issue with stereo signals, mono signals pan as expected.

Also, with the 14:2 and Line Mixer, there is no "Width" control so you can't compensate for the 'disappearing' channel on those mixers.

And finally, I've tried to understand exactly how the Width control relates to position, to no avail. For example, what Pan/Width setting gives you the equivalent of one channel panned to the side and one to center? Wish there was more information on this subject.

Yeah... (Maybe one day I'll do exact output level measurements for the pan/width controls, but today is not that day.)

If you really need exact panning, and don't have the dosh to drop on a Selig Gain, there's one other option:

You can create two more Mix Channels. Flip the Rack around, and take the direct outputs of the channel you want to pan, and connect the left to one of the new Mix Channels, and the right to the other (using the Left/Mono input on both). Leave the pan/width on the original in the default positions. Now you have two pan controls, one for the left, and one for the right, with no width. Control the volume on the original channel to keep the stereo levels locked, and don't touch the level on the two new channels.

Clunky, but it's free.

[RandomSkratch]

The Reason Mixer pan knob reduces the level of the side you're panning to. So if you hard pan left, the input to the left channel completely disappears. The way you're supposed to work with the Pan control is to involve the Width control too. If you reduce the width to 0, it will collapse the left and right together, and then you can hard pan left and not lose anything.

There is a little clue in the lights around the pan knob. If you're pushing lights off the edge, you're losing content. If you reduce the width so the lights don't completely surround the knob you can pan as far as the lights show without loss. If you want to pan further, you have to reduce the width further.

Selig Gain has two pan pots to control how much of the left input is mixed into the left and right channel, and the same for the right. This is the more traditional panning system.

Both systems can get you just about the same results*, but you have to understand what Reason is doing.

*You can't pan the left to the right, and the right to the left using Reason's pan control, but you can with Selig Gain.

To expand on this a little…

This is only an issue with stereo signals, mono signals pan as expected.

Also, with the 14:2 and Line Mixer, there is no "Width" control so you can't compensate for the 'disappearing' channel on those mixers.

And finally, I've tried to understand exactly how the Width control relates to position, to no avail. For example, what Pan/Width setting gives you the equivalent of one channel panned to the side and one to center? Wish there was more information on this subject.



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Holy epic TIL! That's crazy.. How did you even figure this out? This really seems like something that needs addressing (just checked the manual to see what they actually say about the pan knobs.. and it's nothing outside of basic "turn this for L or R").

Maybe an option for alternate pan law implementations could be useful.

[normen]

Holy epic TIL! That's crazy.. How did you even figure this out? This really seems like something that needs addressing (just checked the manual to see what they actually say about the pan knobs.. and it's nothing outside of basic "turn this for L or R").

Maybe an option for alternate pan law implementations could be useful.

Its not exactly as unusual as Selig and Scuzzy make it. If you have ONE knob on a stereo source its pretty much always a balance knob (i.e. it attenuates the side you turn it away from), if its a mono source you have a pan knob (it divides the energy between the stereo output buses). Its the same in Logic or pretty much any DAW that uses one knob for stereo sources. Same on home amplifiers. Pan law doesn't really have anything to do with that, pan laws are about how to divide the energy of a MONO source to a stereo bus.

[selig]

The Reason Mixer pan knob reduces the level of the side you're panning to. So if you hard pan left, the input to the left channel completely disappears. The way you're supposed to work with the Pan control is to involve the Width control too. If you reduce the width to 0, it will collapse the left and right together, and then you can hard pan left and not lose anything.

There is a little clue in the lights around the pan knob. If you're pushing lights off the edge, you're losing content. If you reduce the width so the lights don't completely surround the knob you can pan as far as the lights show without loss. If you want to pan further, you have to reduce the width further.

Selig Gain has two pan pots to control how much of the left input is mixed into the left and right channel, and the same for the right. This is the more traditional panning system.

Both systems can get you just about the same results*, but you have to understand what Reason is doing.

*You can't pan the left to the right, and the right to the left using Reason's pan control, but you can with Selig Gain.

To expand on this a little…

This is only an issue with stereo signals, mono signals pan as expected.

Also, with the 14:2 and Line Mixer, there is no "Width" control so you can't compensate for the 'disappearing' channel on those mixers.

And finally, I've tried to understand exactly how the Width control relates to position, to no avail. For example, what Pan/Width setting gives you the equivalent of one channel panned to the side and one to center? Wish there was more information on this subject.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Holy epic TIL! That's crazy.. How did you even figure this out? This really seems like something that needs addressing (just checked the manual to see what they actually say about the pan knobs.. and it's nothing outside of basic "turn this for L or R").

Maybe an option for alternate pan law implementations could be useful.

It's not pan law that's at issue, here, though that's another oddity IMO. It's the fact that the pan control is a crossfader not a panner. That is to say, it takes two inputs and selects between them rather than taking one input and choosing between two destinations.

As for pan law, Reason uses an obscure pan law that boosts the signal when panned L/R by 3 dB, while most pan laws REDUCE the signal in the center (by various amounts, typically 3 dB). The only downside to this is if you have a normalized signal and pan it left/right you'll boost it by 3 dB which could result in clipping the output (causing you to have to reduce the level). Not a huge deal, but worth knowing IMO.



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[RandomSkratch]

Alright I'll stop trying to sound smarter than I am... :-p

But it's interesting to hear about the uniqueness of the mixer. Is this perhaps how an actual SSL console works?

[selig]

Holy epic TIL! That's crazy.. How did you even figure this out? This really seems like something that needs addressing (just checked the manual to see what they actually say about the pan knobs.. and it's nothing outside of basic "turn this for L or R").

Maybe an option for alternate pan law implementations could be useful.

Its not exactly as unusual as Selig and Scuzzy make it. If you have ONE knob on a stereo source its pretty much always a balance knob (i.e. it attenuates the side you turn it away from), if its a mono source you have a pan knob (it divides the energy between the stereo output buses). Its the same in Logic or pretty much any DAW that uses one knob for stereo sources. Same on home amplifiers. Pan law doesn't really have anything to do with that, pan laws are about how to divide the energy of a MONO source to a stereo bus.

Yes, totally correct, excepet the knob you describe is a BALANCE control, not a PAN control.

And the point isn't that it's "unusual", just that most are not even aware that's what's going on.


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[selig]

Alright I'll stop trying to sound smarter than I am... :-p

But it's interesting to hear about the uniqueness of the mixer. Is this perhaps how an actual SSL console works?

No.


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[normen]

Yes, totally correct, excepet the knob you describe is a BALANCE control, not a PAN control.

And the point isn't that it's "unusual", just that most are not even aware that's what's going on.

Yep, if its one knob and a stereo source its called a balance knob, just as I said. And yeah, you didn't call it unusual, it was "dustmoses" who called it "weirdness". I actually don't know of any hard- or software where a single knob on a stereo source is NOT a balance knob. But sure, the Props could change the tooltip of the knob to "balance" instead of "panorama" in that case - but I don't know if that would be a better hint for people who don't know about this general "thing" in audio knobbing

[selig]

Yes, totally correct, excepet the knob you describe is a BALANCE control, not a PAN control.

And the point isn't that it's "unusual", just that most are not even aware that's what's going on.

Yep, if its one knob and a stereo source its called a balance knob, just as I said. And yeah, you didn't call it unusual, it was "dustmoses" who called it "weirdness". I actually don't know of any hard- or software where a single knob on a stereo source is NOT a balance knob. But sure, the Props could change the tooltip of the knob to "balance" instead of "panorama" in that case - but I don't know if that would be a better hint for people who don't know about this general "thing" in audio knobbing

Oh crap, didn't read your post clearly. Sorry about that, you clearly said it was a Balance control from the start.

Not good to post "pre-coffee" I guess…


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[C//AZM]

Just to wrap my head around this.....

So if I have, a stereo bus fed by eight bkg vocal tracks panned left, left center, center, right center, right...etc, if I pan the bus a bit, I'm changing my mix of the vocs?

If I have a synth sound that is sine wave on the hard left, and sawtooth on the hard right, and I send that to a stereo channel in the Reason mixer with the width all the way wide. I pan to hard left and the sawtooth disappears? So in effect, it's as if I had each sound going to a mono channel panned left and right and as I moved one fader up, I moved the other down? OK, now would it be "normal acting" to send my synth to two mono channels and pan each as I want?

EDIT- feel free to explain it to me as if I'm the idiot that my wife knows me to be.

[normen]

Just to wrap my head around this.....

So if I have, a stereo bus fed by eight bkg vocal tracks panned left, left center, center, right center, right...etc, if I pan the bus a bit, I'm changing my mix of the vocs?

If I have a synth sound that is sine wave on the hard left, and sawtooth on the hard right, and I send that to a stereo channel in the Reason mixer with the width all the way wide. I pan to hard left and the sawtooth disappears? So in effect, it's as if I had each sound going to a mono channel panned left and right and as I moved one fader up, I moved the other down? OK, now would it be "normal acting" to send my synth to two mono channels and pan each as I want?

EDIT- feel free to explain it to me as if I'm the idiot that my wife knows me to be.

Yep. Thats basically what happens. A balance knob only attenuates one of the two channels depending on which way you turn it. Center = both are at 100%, half-right = left is at 50% and right is at 100%, hard right = left at 0%, right at 100%. It never boosts either side above 100% though.

(Note these percentages are of course arbitrary, they mostly attenuate logarithmically)

[selig]

Just to wrap my head around this.....

So if I have, a stereo bus fed by eight bkg vocal tracks panned left, left center, center, right center, right...etc, if I pan the bus a bit, I'm changing my mix of the vocs?

If I have a synth sound that is sine wave on the hard left, and sawtooth on the hard right, and I send that to a stereo channel in the Reason mixer with the width all the way wide. I pan to hard left and the sawtooth disappears? So in effect, it's as if I had each sound going to a mono channel panned left and right and as I moved one fader up, I moved the other down? OK, now would it be "normal acting" to send my synth to two mono channels and pan each as I want?

EDIT- feel free to explain it to me as if I'm the idiot that my wife knows me to be.

Yep. Thats basically what happens. A balance knob only attenuates one of the two channels depending on which way you turn it. Center = both are at 100%, half-right = left is at 50% and right is at 100%. It never boosts either side above 100% though.

However, Reason's pan knob DOES boost the side above 100%.

If you take a normalized sine wave, stereo or mono, and pan it hard L/R, it's 3 dB HIGHER than 0 dBFS (clipping). That's one of my gripes about the +3 dB pan law, not that you'd run into this specific issue often. Just worth noting it happens…


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[normen]

However, Reason's pan knob DOES boost the side above 100%.

If you take a normalized sine wave, stereo or mono, and pan it hard L/R, it's 3 dB HIGHER than 0 dBFS (clipping). That's one of my gripes about the +3 dB pan law, not that you'd run into this specific issue often. Just worth noting it happens…

Yeah but I was talking about balance now.. Don't think it happens there does it? As for pan law I agree, Reason chose basically the worst pan law it could... If it happens with the balance knob as well its just broken..

[selig]

However, Reason's pan knob DOES boost the side above 100%.

If you take a normalized sine wave, stereo or mono, and pan it hard L/R, it's 3 dB HIGHER than 0 dBFS (clipping). That's one of my gripes about the +3 dB pan law, not that you'd run into this specific issue often. Just worth noting it happens…

Yeah but I was talking about balance now.. Don't think it happens there does it? As for pan law I agree, Reason chose basically the worst pan law it could...

Sorry, didn't mean to write that as a rebuttal. In bed sick today, maybe should post less…


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[RandomSkratch]

In bed sick today, maybe should post less…

What else are you going to do? lol.. posting seems like the only logical thing TO do.. hah

[normen]

Sorry, didn't mean to write that as a rebuttal. In bed sick today, maybe should post less…

You know what? It actually does happen with the balance knob as well.. As I said, thats just plain broken.

For pan knobs its kind of normal, you put the whole energy on one channel instead of both - so the +3dB boost is what happens for the most "naive" pan knob. Its not practical so most desks implement another pan law. For balance it doesn't make any sense at all. Why would the other channel get louder when you just take away energy from the other channel..

So okay, I agree theres a fair bit of wonkyness with Reasons pan AND balance knobs

[selig]

Sorry, didn't mean to write that as a rebuttal. In bed sick today, maybe should post less…

You know what? It actually does happen with the balance knob as well.. As I said, thats just plain broken.

For pan knobs its kind of normal, you put the whole energy on one channel instead of both - so the +3dB boost is what happens for the most "naive" pan knob. Its not practical so most desks implement another pan law. For balance it doesn't make any sense at all. Why would the other channel get louder when you just take away energy from the other channel..

So okay, I agree theres a fair bit of wonkyness with Reasons pan AND balance knobs

Interesting stuff!
On a similar note, all dry/wet (blend) controls do NOT boost gain, so the inconsistency is odd IMO.

Pan Law…
I'm guessing that as analog pan knobs were not "active", they had to use a negative gain pan law. But with digital, you can do either. What I don't understand is why a positive gain pan law was chosen in the first place (and by whom)? What's the advantage (if any)?


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