Line 6 amps - the reason why they were removed?

[ejanuska]

The Line6 amps were included in Record and Reason way back in whatever year. PH was still growing, although you could buy versions in big box stores in the US nationwide it was barely on the DAW radar. It may have been a mistake for PH to add them as a default RE but lets assume it was done to help sell PH products. PH got a major brand bundled in their product thus improving its marketing, Line6 expanded their reach into new software markets. It's called a "business agreement".

Time passed and the business agreement ended. Assuming PH CEOs aren't heartless bastards, I'm sure they regret the inconvenience to everyone, including me, who were/are affected.

Just because PH makes products for creative types don't assume it's not ruled by business practices, contracts, laws, etc.

I wonder how many people here have been affected by iPhone hardware changes that require new chargers every other new iPhone release, or now the removal of the headphone jack. There is no free work around that, just fork over some cash to buy the accessories. No backwards compatibility there.
This is a similar situation. This situation will happen in the future with other products and industries. Some call it "progress", others call it "change".

The expectation of all-inclusive forever backwards compatibility is a dream. Please wake up.

[miscend]

If it's really that important...

It depends on how much value you attach to the fact that Reason has been 100% backwards compatible since it's release, until Reason 9.

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it... which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken). Just saying that Line 6 is who people should be contacting or just move on to other options.

Its propellerheads fault only, when I puchased Reason, I was dealing with PH, PH only is responsible for the deal they made with line6, not me as a buyer, i had no dealings with line6.

Im sure they would never have revealed the terms of contracts they had with line6 but I dont remember reading or anyone saying something in the lines of : line6 amps is a termed contract, please note that they might be removed somewhere in the future.

A lot dont care cause they where not the best amp sims, but a lot of us have combinators, patches, songs using them, even purchased line6 devices to open up the amps

No matter how much we discuss this, its done, and its PH fault for having a bad contract with line6, not me, they got away with it.

You are right about the Line 6 contract being a very bad deal for everyone involved. Which is why they were removed eventually. I'm sure Props tried everything in their power to rectify the situation. They really should have gone with Softube amps from the very beginning and we wouldn't be in this situation we are in.

[mind2069]

Amen to that, even selig, a PH fan can admit to PH did wrong, I will let this go but joeyluck justifications are beyong me.

I don't see his comments as justifications so much as trying to help others find a way forward.
I'm more of a realist myself, and have moved on to bigger and better things. I will admit that it's highly unlikely we'll see a repeat of the past from the Props in this department, but I'm also not willing to bet the farm on this!

I just meant that you even you, a very level headed person (i think) can admit ph sort of screwed up on one of their major selling points.

We all have to move on, there no going back, but it may be easier for you and others who did not use the line6 devices that much.

Why I have trouble letting go is that they were always included as stock devices and no where it was mentioned otherwise or that they could be removed in the future, plus buying line6 stuff just to open the amps

[selig]

Amen to that, even selig, a PH fan can admit to PH did wrong, I will let this go but joeyluck justifications are beyong me.

I don't see his comments as justifications so much as trying to help others find a way forward.
I'm more of a realist myself, and have moved on to bigger and better things. I will admit that it's highly unlikely we'll see a repeat of the past from the Props in this department, but I'm also not willing to bet the farm on this!

I just meant that you even you, a very level headed person (i think) can admit ph sort of screwed up on one of their major selling points.

We all have to move on, there no going back, but it may be easier for you and others who did not use the line6 devices that much.

Why I have trouble letting go is that they were always included as stock devices and no where it was mentioned otherwise or that they could be removed in the future, plus buying line6 stuff just to open the amps

I am a Reason user, not a fan, not a supporter, employee, spokesperson, whatever. I use the app, I find it to work very well for me, and yet I have PLENTY I'd change about it if I could, and plenty I'd do differently if I was creating a music app from scratch.

For music creation, there's no app that works better for me. If that makes me a "fan", then I'm a fan. Otherwise I'm simply a satisfied user!

I'm not sure where to put the blame, I certainly don't think it's 100% Propellerhead's fault. But I don't care - I'm a disappointed customer, plain and simple. That being said, I ALSO understand that not everything can be predicted nor prevented, and don't hold a grudge.

I will say this: the topic has been discussed multiple times, and it always goes the same way. Carry on if you all must carry on - I guess there's a new generation of folks that need to vent. But in the end, who knows (or cares) "the reason why they were removed". This can be discussed to death.

At the end of the day, I'd rather talk about what's possible, not what's not possible, fwiw.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stratatonic]

I will admit that it's highly unlikely we'll see a repeat of the past from the Props in this department,
but I'm also not willing to bet the farm on this!

I think you mean the (pod)farm...

[avasopht]

The Line6 devices were extraordinary. They had everything from convolution reverbs (IIRC) right the way down to an SSL and LA-2A compressor. I was put off by the lack of control available within Reason though, otherwise I'd have littered my tracks Line6 devices

Thankfully we have Rack Extensions.

[WillyOD]

Would gladly pay for Line6 amps, if they made a comeback (wink wink)

BTW I told my friend just now about the removal of Line 6 amps He's still using R5 or R6 and took a few years break from music.

I can tell you he wasn't pleased.

[Iapetus 9]

As a guitarist, I've never used the Line6 stuff. It was wholly disappointing as soon as I plugged in with Record. Perhaps I was expecting more than a glorified demo. I've picked on Line6 from time to time, but I was honestly impressed with their hardware during a recording session a few years ago. My buddy brought his whole Marshall stack in, spent an hour dialing it in, and ended up using the Line6 practice amp laying around for the tracks. It was very convincing.

That said, I hold to my opinion about the Line6 stupidity. If you're a serious guitarist, then you should have a real amp and a bevy of pedals by now. Recording with real amps is still infinitely better, and the IR upgrade has made it even easier without all the angry neighbors complaining about sound levels. I do feel sorry for those that found a use for the old devices with their synth setups. I, on the other hand, feel justified in not ever using them in the first place. I don't feel cheated, or out the money for the Line6 hardware needed for half assed integration. I don't miss Line6. I'd forgotten all about em actually. YMMV.

[tronam]

And I repeat this, it on PH 100%, no blaming line6/yamaha for PH faulty contract.

Right, because 100% control over another company's evolving intellectual property in perpetuity is a reasonable expectation in this world.

[stratatonic]

And I repeat this, it on PH 100%, no blaming line6/yamaha for PH faulty contract.

Right, because 100% control over another company's evolving intellectual property in perpetuity is a reasonable expectation in this world.

I'll bet the farm that as long as there is a Propellerhead Reason, there will be a Softube Amp in it...

[KEVMOVE02]

When Line 6 first announced they were providing access to a portion of their tone library, they also offered two ways to expand the selection of patches (which included guitar, bass, synth and vocal tones): If you used a Line 6 audio interface, you would have all of the licensed Pod Farm patches available (natively) in Reason, or you could run Pod Farm in standalone mode and Reason would create an audio track (mono or stereo), which provides you the ability to use dual tone patches in Reason. When this feature was first introduced, not many computers could handle Pod Farm and Reason without suffering a performance hit, but hardware has advanced enough that many laptops can easily handle running Pod Farm and Reason concurrently. True, its sad that Propellerhead/Line 6 terminated their relationship, which has left a lot of people wondering how do they preserve all their past work. I will say it again: what's wrong with repurposing an older system to run as an Instrument Effects Processor? You could throw all of your guitar sims on that one laptop and run it as a line in to your audio interface. Just a thought.

[jayhosking]

I will say it again: what's wrong with repurposing an older system to run as an Instrument Effects Processor? You could throw all of your guitar sims on that one laptop and run it as a line in to your audio interface. Just a thought.

I know it's obvious, but this would require
1) running an entire second laptop that takes up space and power and has its own screen/mouse/keyboard
2) marrying your amp sims to track (i.e. record audio), eliminating the possibility of tweaking them later, OR
3) constantly running audio from your Reason laptop to the old amp-laptop (to simulate the amp) and back to the main recording laptop, if you want to tweak the sounds as you go

Maybe other people are rich in space and time, but this sounds like a huge hassle to me. I have a PodXT and I hardly ever run it to Reason, because I want to be able to edit the amp sounds later on as needed, and I don't want to fuss with running a loop to it and back. As such, I've switched over to the Kuassa amp sims, mainly.

[KEVMOVE02]

I will say it again: what's wrong with repurposing an older system to run as an Instrument Effects Processor? You could throw all of your guitar sims on that one laptop and run it as a line in to your audio interface. Just a thought.

I know it's obvious, but this would require
1) running an entire second laptop that takes up space and power and has its own screen/mouse/keyboard
2) marrying your amp sims to track (i.e. record audio), eliminating the possibility of tweaking them later, OR
3) constantly running audio from your Reason laptop to the old amp-laptop (to simulate the amp) and back to the main recording laptop, if you want to tweak the sounds as you go

Maybe other people are rich in space and time, but this sounds like a huge hassle to me. I have a PodXT and I hardly ever run it to Reason, because I want to be able to edit the amp sounds later on as needed, and I don't want to fuss with running a loop to it and back. As such, I've switched over to the Kuassa amp sims, mainly.

I think you are overstating the complexity of this solution. My suggestion is a slight variation of what so many people are already doing when they connect their DAW to any external musical instrument: hardware synth, iPad in a I/O Dock, guitar running through a fx pedal, and so on. It's also not a solution that requires a lot of cash: I got a Dell E6220 for $250 off Amazon, and installed all my guitar and drum sims on that system. I have collected several usb audio interfaces over the years, so no additional purchases needed. Fringe benefit: a workstation for a second musician for jam sessions. I understand that the person who wants to have everything in one box is not likely to find this solution appealing. If Pod Farm is your cup of tea, this option is not that bad. FWIW, this is not the first time that a company has decided to discontinue a feature found in a key product (which is not nearly as bad as telling your customers that to use the next generation of software, you have to upgrade your hardware. I'm looking at you xxxxxxx).

[jayhosking]

I think you are overstating the complexity of this solution. My suggestion is a slight variation of what so many people are already doing when they connect their DAW to any external musical instrument: hardware synth, iPad in a I/O Dock, guitar running through a fx pedal, and so on.

I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree. As far as additions to a studio go, it's not too bad. However, two points to consider:

I almost always want to tweak every sound at both the tracking and mixing stages, and sometimes that means selecting a different amp/cab for the guitar sound, or dialling the gain or presence up/down. If I marry that amp audio to track, I'm limited to tweaking EQ and additional effects only, or I have to go wire up the second system again.

I do a lot of music on the go, especially rough sketches, tweaks for songs, or early mixing, both for practical reasons (work) or creative reasons (new spaces are inspiring). It's of great value to me that my portable setup be small, light, and simple.

So yeah, you're right: it's a decent solution to have your amp sims in a second box, like a PodXT (which I own) or a second laptop. But it's not nearly as flexible or portable as just having everything in one laptop. Even in the "studio", I'm much more inclined to run guitars directly in, mainly to get ideas moving quickly.

But this is totally off topic. To contribute to the main thread, I'm with others that I'd probably pay for a Line 6 RE if they came up with one, judging from the years that I've used their products.

[avasopht]

You can also get a fairly cheap brand new tablet PC for under $100 with an Intel Atom processor running Windows 10.

[mguh22]

I have POD Farm Platinum and it gives me loads of devices I can bring into the Reason rack via the LIne 6 Amp Device. It's one of the reasons I'm still on Reason 7. It is a little frustrating that the patches can't be tweaked inline, but it's not much hassle to load the standalone POD Farm app in the background, tweak the parameters and then reload the patch in the rack. The delays, distortions, compressors and modulation effects are all superb.

POD Farm gives me lots of sounds I can't get anywhere else. I also do not find the Softube Amps work as well. It's a shame Softube didn't just port their Vintage Amp Room and Metal Amp Room over as those are amazing; but whatever code it is they've used in the Rack Extensions does not sound as good as those.

To me, the best thing Propellerhead could do would be to buy Softube out or work with them collaboratively to create a brand new DAW from scratch that is the true sequel to the original Reason rack concept. 'Record' and then 'Rack Extensions' have been a fun way to extend the Reason idea, but I think they should get back to the original principals of a self-contained "instrument" that has immediacy and versatility of patching in mind (most REs simply can't compete with the native rack devices for patching) and one where everyone's songs can be shared with each other and they always "just work".

[chimp_spanner]

One partial solution to this; get an X3 I actually just nabbed one for free, but they typically go for around 100 bucks, which if you break it down is waaaay cheaper than buying an amp sim RE, all the stomps and modulation effects, etc.

Okay so you have to commit to a tone (well, there are ways to re-amp using the USB audio feed to capture dry guitar) but personally I'm okay with that. It's so much nicer having it sat on my desk where I can lean over and change the tone. And cos I run with direct monitoring, there's no latency either.

Obviously this doesn't address combinators that use L6 devices but if you're a guitarist and really miss that sound, the X3 is still very, very playable IMO.

[WillyOD]

Solutions and workarounds. That's what I've grown to except in the world of Propellerheads. That just doesn't cut it for me. I'm so glad I never bought a Line6 device from a friend for additional Line6 amps.

Some Reason features I've been waiting for years, some of them very basic features. But Props got lost in the world of Rack Extensions, which is cool, but now that you've got that RE going on strong, how about making Reason 10 the best available DAW out there? On some level at least. Stop focusing on Allihoopd and external features and MAKE THE damn SOFTWARE BETTER, yes?

I still think Reason is the best music making platform for me. But I've heard good things about Bitwig and Live etc. Just tried out some Ableton controllers, cool stuff. I'm sticking with Reason for good (committed for life, which could be scary, but you've gotta take chances), I'm not going to switch, especially now that I've invested thousands and thousands of euros in Props and invested even more time in trying to learn the software and being comfortable around it, workarounds and all.

Would be cool to get a comment from Props to end all of this speculation. Would be nice to know if there's any chance of Line6 amps making a comeback. Cool, they've got a partnership with Softube, but are these so top secret deals that you can't even comment on these... or maybe you just don't care?

I would also like to know very much about the core Propellerheads developer team. How has it changed over the last years? Because I really feel the actual software hasn't gotten the love it has needed. Sometimes I wonder if you've lost some core developers and no-one has any idea what's going on in Reason code base, so you just keep chugging out updated Rack Extensions...

I've probably said this before, but Props communication since PH forums shut down have been... non-existant. Or maybe they do stuff on Twitter or Facebook, but those are not for me. I'm glad Ryan's still doing stuff from time to time. Seriously the coolest dude at Props.

[EnochLight]

I've probably said this before, but Props communication since PH forums shut down have been... non-existant. Or maybe they do stuff on Twitter or Facebook..

Actually, their communication since the old PUF shut down has increased - a great deal. But yeah, they do it mostly via Facebook, Twitter, and by extent, their YouTube channel. If you're not on there, then I can see how it might appear that they communicate less though.

[WillyOD]

Yeah, that's just the thing, another workaround. Go to three-four different Props web sites to get my Reason news, I don't think so...
At least I get some e-mails, but even they seem to be mostly about RE sales.

Although I admit I haven't visited http://www.propellerheads.se in a year or so (since they redesigned the site for tablets), I just go straight to shop.propellerheads.se for my needs. But I feel I used to find everything I needed from their ONE website (could be false memories )

BTW Sorry, didn't mean to sound overly negative or anything, just wrote up some of my thoughts I've had over the past years.
At least we have this forum, which I'm very grateful for Happy holidays, let's try to crank out some tunes!

[jfrichards]

...Props communication since PH forums shut down have been... non-existant...

Will, that's way off. Everyone shifted over to ReasonTalk, including Props' staff, including company beta managers. And all those disruptive people who made the official forum turn into a cesspool have been filtered out. ReasonTalk is the place to activate all users, from first timers to old timers.

By the way, I just remastered an old song with Kuassa stuff, including Vermilion and 3603 boxes for the guitars. I could not have done this with Line6.
https://allihoopa.com/s/UuSw1tVP

[nscerri]

One of the features I liked most was the Wah Pedal. Does anyone know if there is a similar effect from other RE's please?

Sent from my XT1572 using Tapatalk

[SA Studio]

And I repeat this, it on PH 100%, no blaming line6/yamaha for PH faulty contract.

Right, because 100% control over another company's evolving intellectual property in perpetuity is a reasonable expectation in this world.

I'll bet the farm that as long as there is a Propellerhead Reason, there will be a Softube Amp in it...

AHH! This man pays attention!

While it's a shame there's no more Line 6 devices in Reason, this is old news and hopefully we've all had time to prepare.

[FlowerSoldier]

Even if Reason can't do some things, it does so many things amazingly well. I can't get enough of it. I use other DAWs too, because there is always more than one solution. But Reason is still really good, even without Line 6.

[miscend]

Yeah, that's just the thing, another workaround. Go to three-four different Props web sites to get my Reason news, I don't think so...
At least I get some e-mails, but even they seem to be mostly about RE sales.

Although I admit I haven't visited http://www.propellerheads.se in a year or so (since they redesigned the site for tablets), I just go straight to shop.propellerheads.se for my needs. But I feel I used to find everything I needed from their ONE website (could be false memories )

BTW Sorry, didn't mean to sound overly negative or anything, just wrote up some of my thoughts I've had over the past years.
At least we have this forum, which I'm very grateful for Happy holidays, let's try to crank out some tunes!

Interesting to read this. I think Reason is now pretty good as is.

What are the basic features that you think are lacking? Please note that Line 6 and VST are probably no go areas, because VST support goes against the concept of Reason as a self contained environment. And Line 6 being a separate company it is outside of Propellerhead's control what they choose to do with their code. But being that Props announced the ending of Line 6 support many years ago I doubt they'd ever make a U-turn. And to be honest the implementation was half arsed requiring you to own the hardware or Podfarm to get the proper functionality.