Line 6 amps - the reason why they were removed?

[EnochLight]

If it's really that important...

It depends on how much value you attach to the fact that Reason has been 100% backwards compatible since it's release, until Reason 9.

[miscend]

Well at least the Softube amps sound a lot more like a real physical guitar amps. For all you lucky ones who know how to shred. It could have been much much worse.

[stratatonic]

Well at least the Softube amps sound a lot more like a real physical guitar amps. For all you lucky ones who know how to shred. It could have been much much worse.

And adding convolution to the RV7000 to use IRs helped make a shit situation a bit better.

[joeyluck]

If it's really that important...

It depends on how much value you attach to the fact that Reason has been 100% backwards compatible since it's release, until Reason 9.

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it... which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken). Just saying that Line 6 is who people should be contacting or just move on to other options.

[EnochLight]

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it...

Well, no - not exactly. For any/all users who had projects utilizing Line6 devices, it is completely broken if you upgraded to 9. There's no way to candy coat it.

which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken). Just saying that Line 6 is who people should be contacting or just move on to other options.

Oh I'm sure Line6/Yamaha got plenty of nasty emails from Reasoners. Clearly it amounted to nothing, though.

[joeyluck]

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it...

Well, no - not exactly. For any/all users who had projects utilizing Line6 devices, it is completely broken if you upgraded to 9. There's no way to candy coat it.

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

[QVprod]

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it...

Well, no - not exactly. For any/all users who had projects utilizing Line6 devices, it is completely broken if you upgraded to 9. There's no way to candy coat it.

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

[joeyluck]

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it...

Well, no - not exactly. For any/all users who had projects utilizing Line6 devices, it is completely broken if you upgraded to 9. There's no way to candy coat it.

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

Yeah I guess our definitions of broken and especially "completely broken" are different

Again, see how other DAWs might have handled this... which typically means 'not at all.'
As in Propellerhead could have said, "You can open your song files and Combinator patches containing Line 6 devices in Reason 6-8, but they will not open at all in Reason 9; as you will instead just get an error message." Thankfully that is not the case

[EnochLight]

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

@Joey - so you never used any Line6 amps in your pre-9.0 projects? I can see if you didn't, then things would appear perfectly fine for you. For those of us who did, however, it completely broke backwards compatibility and made every song made with them different. I mean sure - it was swell that we could still open the projects - but come on man...

[joeyluck]

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

@Joey - so you never used any Line6 amps in your pre-9.0 projects? I can see if you didn't, then things would appear perfectly fine for you. For those of us who did, however, it completely broke backwards compatibility and made every song made with them different. I mean sure - it was swell that we could still open the projects - but come on man...

Yes, I used them a bunch.

Again with the "completely broke"? To me that means it won't open...

[EnochLight]

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

@Joey - so you never used any Line6 amps in your pre-9.0 projects? I can see if you didn't, then things would appear perfectly fine for you. For those of us who did, however, it completely broke backwards compatibility and made every song made with them different. I mean sure - it was swell that we could still open the projects - but come on man...

Yes, I used them a bunch.

Again with the "completely broke"? To me that means it won't open...

And you feel that having all of those projects sound completely different due to their loss... acceptable? Clearly this is the crux of our diverging opinions.

[joeyluck]

Really? My Reason files and Combinator patches still open in Reason 9...

I believe completely broken in this case means does not sound the same. Any patches and refills reliant on the use of line 6 amps now require reworking.

@Joey - so you never used any Line6 amps in your pre-9.0 projects? I can see if you didn't, then things would appear perfectly fine for you. For those of us who did, however, it completely broke backwards compatibility and made every song made with them different. I mean sure - it was swell that we could still open the projects - but come on man...

Yes, I used them a bunch.

Again with the "completely broke"? To me that means it won't open...

And you feel that having all of those projects sound completely different due to their loss... acceptable? Clearly this is the crux of our diverging opinions.

Again, I'm just first trying to get on the same page of "completely broke."
To me that means it doesn't open or work (whatever it is in software we are talking about).
Or it could also mean you did too much shopping during Black Friday sales

I've used Reason since version 1. I have never in another piece of software, especially over this many years, had this level of compatibility between versions I've had plenty of issues with other software where I can't open old projects and patches at all.

When Propellerhead made the announcement about 3 years ago, I stopped using Line 6 amps in my new projects. I'm glad this wasn't delivered as a surprise with the release of Reason 9.

Now, if I open projects using them, I make changes and try it out. Most of the time I am pleasantly surprised and happy with the new results. If not, I open the file in Reason 8 and work on the song there or bounce the tracks to then use in Reason 9.

It is by no means "completely broken." It is unfortunate, but I appreciate the heads up I was given, the alternatives I was given, the alternatives I have by other RE developers, and I am glad that I can still open my projects and Combinator patches. I have moved on.

[EnochLight]

It is by no means "completely broken." .

Well, again - that's the crux of our differing views. You feel that songs not sounding the same from past productions is not completely broken. I, and many others, feel it is. Don't get me wrong - I'm ecstatic that the projects can still at least be opened, but let's not mince words here. If it were Subtractor, Thor, or any other Reason device changing and sounding completely different (or being removed entirely), this would be a problem. I see no difference in the two scenarios.

I've moved on as well, despite the painful loss of all of my cab sim purchases from Line6 and fucked up Reason projects. It hasn't been a seamless adjustment, that's for sure.

[zabukowski]

I also have a feeling like because Line6 stuff is being something for guitarists, it is not so very important, like Reason is more for synths, electronica etc. I've composed up a LOT of guitar based songs in Reason and the lack of Line6 certainly isn't one of the pleasant moments, considering we are talking about mighty Reason. Having both R8 and R9 installed and using them in Rewire mode is additional trouble, because rewire engine is different.

Well, I got over with this some time ago, but the importance of this unpleasant event shouldn't be underestimated.

I am sure that if something like this would happen with Malstroem, for example, things would flame up to the maximum. Hard to believe that would be considered as "partly broken" ...

[Gulale]

I totally missed Line 6. I couldn't click with Souftube. Freakin boomy I just don't like it. To be honest, my expectation was Line 6 to come as a Rack extension. But it never did. I thought they wanted to expand it via Re.

I have a question though, Why don't Reason users open for a change. Why don't they need to have a better compressor? a better Knee control? Just because it might break the old project why ended up with outdated tools? I'm not saying Line 6 is outdated but a figure of speech. I would rather have newer better product breaking the old cause I can open the old on my older version. after all I have done it on my older version there is no need to be dependant of the new version. That will encourage for PH to bring newer better tools without worrying too much. Otherwise we all ended up having 2002 tools in 2020.

[jfrichards]

Here is the beginning of a Line6 substitute combinator based on Revival Amp Sims, it needs more work, (the Mod wheel adjusts reverb depth, should have been length or type) (the amp choices are the Gold, Red, Brown, Silver, and Blue), Show Devices opens Revival to make 100 detailed adjustments:

[EnochLight]

I also have a feeling like because Line6 stuff is being something for guitarists, it is not so very important, like Reason is more for synths, electronica etc. ...

I might have agreed with you prior to Reason 6.0 perhaps, but all of that changed as of 6.0 over 5 years ago. As of 6.0, it became a fully fledged recording studio (well, Props version anyway), so it no longer was the domain of electronica and synths only.

[zabukowski]

I also have a feeling like because Line6 stuff is being something for guitarists, it is not so very important, like Reason is more for synths, electronica etc. ...

I might have agreed with you prior to Reason 6.0 perhaps, but all of that changed as of 6.0 over 5 years ago. As of 6.0, it became a fully fledged recording studio (well, Props version anyway), so it no longer was the domain of electronica and synths only.

I didn't have you in mind, we agree 100%

[tronam]

Fortunately there was enough advance notice to start exploring other alternatives over the past 2 years for brand new projects. With old projects keep a copy of Reason 8 around and bounce down tracks before migrating to R9. Not ideal, but workable. It's time to commit those tracks to tape!

[EnochLight]

It's time to commit those tracks to tape!

Heheh - that's exactly what I did with a couple tracks. Just bounced my bass guitar tracks to wav and opened it in 9 - problem solved. Sort of.

[mind2069]

If it's really that important...

It depends on how much value you attach to the fact that Reason has been 100% backwards compatible since it's release, until Reason 9.

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it... which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken). Just saying that Line 6 is who people should be contacting or just move on to other options.

Its propellerheads fault only, when I puchased Reason, I was dealing with PH, PH only is responsible for the deal they made with line6, not me as a buyer, i had no dealings with line6.

Im sure they would never have revealed the terms of contracts they had with line6 but I dont remember reading or anyone saying something in the lines of : line6 amps is a termed contract, please note that they might be removed somewhere in the future.

A lot dont care cause they where not the best amp sims, but a lot of us have combinators, patches, songs using them, even purchased line6 devices to open up the amps

No matter how much we discuss this, its done, and its PH fault for having a bad contract with line6, not me, they got away with it.

[stratatonic]

It's time to commit those tracks to tape!

Heheh - that's exactly what I did with a couple tracks. Just bounced my bass guitar tracks to wav and opened it in 9 - problem solved. Sort of.

Not so bad if you have a Line 6 Bass Amp on a few songs over a few years.

Not so good if the majority of your projects have double/quadruple tracked rhythm guitars, couple more for leads and harmony leads, bass amp(s), through the Line 6 module for preamps or comps for vox, and then the hidden ones in refills...

Everyone will have varying degrees of fucked-up-ness with the Line 6 fiasco. At this point, I don't care much as I have 8.3 installed. But it would definitely effect the (primarily) guitar players more:

I also have a feeling like because Line6 stuff is being something for guitarists, it is not so very important, like Reason is more for synths, electronica etc.

I am sure that if something like this would happen with Malstroem, for example, things would flame up to the maximum. Hard to believe that would be considered as "partly broken" ...

I'm don't think we hit a massive amount of pages on the Propellerhead forum about the removal of Line 6 - here, the Softube Amp thread managed to get to five pages over almost two years...a Malstrom removal would hit 5 pages in 2 minutes...

[greenson]

It's unfortunate, but at this point it's all on Line 6. I hear about many people contacting and pointing fingers at Propellerhead... But in the (three?) years it was first announced (giving us ample heads up), I have seen nothing about people bugging Line 6 about the situation or about making Rack Extensions. I haven't seen or heard a peep from Line 6; haven't seen anybody reply here with a quote (even canned) from Line 6. For all the developers we bug about making REs... if this is what people want, isn't that who they should be bugging?

No more line 6 amps !? They were STOCK DEVICES.

And why would or should people take this up with Line6 ? I have no licencing agreement with Line6 for the devices, my agrrement is with Propellerhead.

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it... which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken).

Who cares about 'other DAWs'? We're talking about Reason. These sorts of flimsy retorts are akin to saying "oh well the war in Iraq really wasn't an issue because the war in Vietnam killed more people"

What is completely broken is their promise of backwards compatibility. This has long been part of Propellerheads marketing schtick. There is no 'still pretty compatible' The latest iteration of Reason is either backwards compatible, or it's not.

I'm new around these part, but can I ask, are you a Propellerhead employee ? The forum seems to be scattered with your praise for the company in the face of genuine concerns from other users. I notice youre also a moderator, so there seems all sorts of conflicts of interests if you're not disclosing your association with Propellerhead.

[joeyluck]

It's unfortunate, but at this point it's all on Line 6. I hear about many people contacting and pointing fingers at Propellerhead... But in the (three?) years it was first announced (giving us ample heads up), I have seen nothing about people bugging Line 6 about the situation or about making Rack Extensions. I haven't seen or heard a peep from Line 6; haven't seen anybody reply here with a quote (even canned) from Line 6. For all the developers we bug about making REs... if this is what people want, isn't that who they should be bugging?

No more line 6 amps !? They were STOCK DEVICES.

And why would or should people take this up with Line6 ? I have no licencing agreement with Line6 for the devices, my agrrement is with Propellerhead.

Yeah. And yet still pretty compatible and not broken; unlike how most other DAWs would handle it... which would be not at all in most cases (just leave it broken).

Who cares about 'other DAWs'? We're talking about Reason. These sorts of flimsy retorts are akin to saying "oh well the war in Iraq really wasn't an issue because the war in Vietnam killed more people"

What is completely broken is their promise of backwards compatibility. This has long been part of Propellerheads marketing schtick. There is no 'still pretty compatible' The latest iteration of Reason is either backwards compatible, or it's not.

I'm new around these part, but can I ask, are you a Propellerhead employee ? The forum seems to be scattered with your praise for the company in the face of genuine concerns from other users. I notice youre also a moderator, so there seems all sorts of conflicts of interests if you're not disclosing your association with Propellerhead.

Haha I wish I was! What a great company No mod here is an employee of Propellerhead. This is run by users and I'm sorry if the forum I moderate happens to be about software in which I am enthusiastic (what a weird use of my time).
I have plenty of criticisms, but they usually get overlooked by users here because I'm pretty constructive and calm about it.

I'm only trying to shed light on the unfortunate situation. The "licensing agreement" you have with Propellerhead is for the versions you purchase. And as mentioned many times, the Line 6 devices are not magically leaving the versions of Reason you purchased in which they were included.

I can understand people being upset. This has been news for a while and many of us have adjusted over the years in preparation since it was announced... It is an unfortunate situation and a mistake on Propellerhead's part. Nobody is arguing that. I think they have an amazing track record with compatibility unlike any other software I have used and I feel they are allowed to make a mistake and learn from it. I'm happy we now have Rack Extensions.

My point about contacting Line 6 is that they are the ones who make the software that many users here are saying they can't live without. Now you can contact and complain to Propellerhead all you want... But they aren't Line 6. They have given us replacements and made it work so that files and patches will still open. We can ask Propellerhead for more amp/cab sims. They also gave us the Convolution algorithm with RV7000 MkII which is handy. We can also ask other developers to deliver more amp/cab REs. That's where we're at. That's all I'm saying.

[greenson]

I recognize your point, and I agree that we have what we paid for... EXCEPT ongoing backwards compatibility ! Thus, the model itself is completely broken.

And what if people stayed on Reason 7 to hold on to the Line 6 inclusive platform, and all that comes with it - eventually there will be RE's that only operate on later Reason releases , so there's a major issue of either upgrading and losing, or staying with 7 and losing.

And what of the ReFills that have been purchased that include Line6? They are all completely broken now, as their intended purpose will be rendered unusable in the way the designer intended.

Looking at that new sim - there's not even a wah. So any automated wah on old tracks will... again... be completely broken.

It really feels like you're being pretty disrespectful towards the opinion of Enoclight and others who use the Line6 gear regularly and it's a bit suspicious that you will be so steadfast in proclaiming Propellerhead have done the right thing, when in fact they have totally done the wrong thing here. The right think would have been to dial in a very close approximation of the sounds form Line6 settings, or build some sort of intuitive interface between the Line6 data and how Softube operates.

Anyway I'm still trying to process all this, and the implications as I just found this out today. I didn't even get an email advising of the changes. That is incredibly bad form. I should not be expected to trawl through social media and forums and whatever else to be notified of a system breakage that's imminent.