i love reason..but...

[wentzelitis]

let's rewind like 13 years, maybe more. i was a teenager. just discovered "fruity loops" .. cool i can make songs for free! (yes i was a young pirate) .. export songs to audacity and record my vocals. after playing with fruity loops for a year or so i realized i didn't like the restriction of loop based recording (yes fl studio has come a long way, more on that later)

i then discovered reason! wow everything is right there in the box! and it comes with record now so i can record my voice along with my songs! i was probably around 20 years old around this time and decided to fork the 400 dollars on legit buying the software. i figure i'm going to take my music seriously, so i will do things legit. plus i'm discovering morals, becoming a person, blah blah

couple months later, a brand new version of reason came out, and they want me to pay like 150 bucks to upgrade or something like that. wow that burns. i just spent 400 bucks (a lot to me at the time) on a program, ditched my pirating ways, and was burned. oh well, let me see if i can get a free upgrade since it was so soon.. talked to support. looks like i missed a free upgrade window by one week! great. well now i don't feel like supporting this company, but the software i bought works, so i used it for many years and was overall pleased with my purchase.

fast forward to 2016. i'm a few months from 30 years old now. i saw a discount on a digital upgrade to reason 8! now record and reason are all in 1 program! i can download my program and ditch my installation cds! along with some other new features to play with ..sure why not! then right after i upgrade, REASON 9 COMES OUT! again i miss the free upgrade window by under a month. and they want 150 bucks to upgrade again. meanwhile i take notice of how far fl studio has come.. and it's only 200 bucks, and it has free updates for life.. along with reaper which doesn't even want to take your money .and both of these programs have better support for my midi controller hardware.


now i have used and grown to love reason over the years. but not only have other programs gotten better, they are also more affordable and have free and more frequent updates.. also they listen to their userbase more (still no vsts? oh well rack extensions are kind of cool.. too bad those cool softsynths that came with my new mpk261 are useless with reason though, too bad i have to map each synth with unecessarily complex map and lua files. that's actually been a common theme with my experiences with reason over the years.. "too bad" ) i really don't want to switch to another daw. i have learned and grown on reason.. but man i get tempted more and more each day

[taddx]

That should be turned into a TV series

[Pinkbox]

#CmonPropsStillNoVSTs

[wentzelitis]

#CmonPropsStillNoVSTs

lol , i mean that was a very very minor part of my rant but yeah!! there are just too many "too bad" moments with reason. your new controller comes with nice vsts.. too bad. can't use them

i have other daw demos downloaded atm and it's just "too bad" with the stuff you can do on them that you can't in reason . being able to assign a controller knob to a synth , and then the same knob to another synth depending on which one is selected in fl studio, at the click of a button.. is just one of many things tempting me to switch daws atm..

"how do i do this thing that i want to do in reason?"
-"you can't" or "you can, but have fun figuring it out as it's unnecessarily complicated and requires a multiple work arounds"

"how do i do it in another daw?"
-"push a button"


really the layout /workflow/ familiarity is all that's keeping me atm . i really do love the layout of reason and it just makes sense and encourages me to view my songs as point a to point b featuring various tracks from any source rather than loops, and to experiment.. but 150 dollar upgrades weeks after i purchase an upgrade just screams "go somewhere else we don't want you!" lol . meanwhile other daws "we're cheaper! we're better! we have free upgrades!" i almost feel dumb for still not switching over to something like reaper or fl studio

[Yonatan]

Will you be able to nake better music with another Daw?
Then go for it or at least do a trial month with a few daws.

Many use two daws or more. But its good to limit also. One daw to conquer them all...

Most use Reason side by side with anorher daw just for the sake of some vst plugs and instruments.

Its not too hard to export a few lanes audio and bring into anothrr daw.

I do understand your feelings when too late on the ball. Not long ago was a great upgrade price on Amazon.
Might be another chance later or wait for R9.5 or R10.

[Ahornberg]

maybe this can give new point of view to all that DAW discussions http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/scien ... .html?_r=0

[Jmax]

I have Studio One 3 and Ableton Live 9 with MANY VSTs, mastering tools, FX, and just about every major synth. Guess what? I hardly use them. I'm always in Reason. Why? 1. Because it's sand-boxed. UNDO works like a charm. I find the sound even more rich and deep in synths like Vecto, Zero, etc.. not to mention the killers that just came out!

It's kind of about what your comfortable working with and not so much about the sounds. E.g. I find automation in Reason very user friendly! In Studio One 3 it's like a 4 step process.

The only thing I use VSTs for is Piano recording. Where I'm getting a sampled piano that is say 10gb or higher. I may do a final master out of Reason where I can push it slightly higher. That's about it though

[gak]

But it's not new and shiny. Reason 9 has a dull sheen to it that reminds me of cold mcdonalds frys. I'd much rather use FL studio, where things are so complicated and unorganized but much prettier to look at

[aisling]

If you are a passionate reason user, the odds are at some point you would shell out $ for an upgrade. While a bummer on the 8-9 upgrade price, i'd simply sit and wait for R10 then spend the $ and avoid the hemorrhoids. Ive been using reason since ver 2 and have shelled out plenty, yet this time I'm still on R8, waiting for R10. I also use other DAWs (live).
I do wish there was an RE wrapper so I could open Ableton, and use my RE's without link (if I upgrade), or rewire.

[wentzelitis]

mapping controllers is extremely cumbersome as well. just because i slyly threw in the vst knock doesn't mean that was the focus of my rant. with fl studio for instance you can simply push a button to map a knob to many synths at once. with reason.. have fun editing the map file for any synth you want to map a knob to at once. simple tasks like this are made unnecessarily complicated with reason, or simply aren't allowed at all. and you get to pay 150 bucks for each upgrade (that still doesn't address issues like this or requests from their userbase).. meanwhile other daws have much more frequent and useful updates.. that are free of charge! and the base program is cheaper on top of that and can do more. i wouldn't mind the base 400$ price (even though other daws can do more and are cheaper) as i don't mind paying extra for a product that i like.. but the updates on top of that, lack of features added, and limits to the software really are a slap in the face at times.

[QVprod]

mapping controllers is extremely cumbersome as well. just because i slyly threw in the vst knock doesn't mean that was the focus of my rant. with fl studio for instance you can simply push a button to map a knob to many synths at once. with reason.. have fun editing the map file for any synth you want to map a knob to at once. simple tasks like this are made unnecessarily complicated with reason, or simply aren't allowed at all. and you get to pay 150 bucks for each upgrade (that still doesn't address issues like this or requests from their userbase).. meanwhile other daws have much more frequent and useful updates.. that are free of charge! and the base program is cheaper on top of that and can do more. i wouldn't mind the base 400$ price (even though other daws can do more and are cheaper) as i don't mind paying extra for a product that i like.. but the updates on top of that, lack of features added, and limits to the software really are a slap in the face at times.

Actually you can map a knob to a synth or any other controllable parameter by just right clicking. This functionality has been there for quite some time. You only have to edit map files if you're doing deep customization. In fact Propellerhead just happened to release this as a quick tip today. you can check their twitter page for it https://twitter.com/PropellerheadSW.

There are only a select few DAWs that are cheaper and do "more than Reason". All the major ones are the same price as Reason except Logic ($200) and Pro Tools that is considerably more expensive. Even so "more than Reason" is generally more of a workflow thing rather than a lack of thing

From reading your original post though, most of your gripes with upgrading right before new releases are related to you not keeping up with the software. Reason 8 was released 2yrs before Reason 9, and you didn't know that Reason and Record were combined at version 6. Not saying you have to spend your life on this forum, but staying in the loop with what's happening in software would help you avoid upgrading right before a release again. But also, if you feel there's a lack of features added in a new version, why not just skip the upgrade? Upgrade price form any version is the same. I skipped Reason 8 entirely because of that.

Ultimately though, Try FLStudio out or whatever other cheaper DAW that's attractive to you and see if it works for you. Don't let price be the major determining factor. For instance Reaper is only $60 and does just as much as Studio One ($400), and some things even better. I bought Studio One anyway because I dislike the workflow in Reaper.

[RustyShakleforde]

Your story is very similar to mine, though i never used FL and instead started with a very early copy of reason i got from a guy at college.

I bought a Nektar P4 a couple of years ago, then one day when on there website looking for updates, i seen a free Lite version of Bitwig. I had been flirting with the idea of getting Abelton, but after demoing it, at that time, i just couldnt get into it.

I tried the lite version of Bitwig a couple of times but kept going back to reason. Then one day Loop Loft had a sale on Bitwig and i had spare cash so bought it. It was the second DAW after reason i had ever bought. I tried it a few times but kept going back to reason.

I then saved and bought K10U and Maschine. To be honest i was blown away. I was and still am aware of the fact that really you can make the sounds you want with reason with enough tinkering, stacking etc, but using the NI stuff really boosted my workflow. It could just be a personal thing.

My song making became prolific using maschine for the initial ideas and jamming, i would then bounce out to Reason and mix and master in there, and i got good results and enjoyed myself.

I then started playing with just bitwig and the NI vsts (as well as the stock ones) and I fell pretty in love with Bitwig, finally. When the workflow clicked I found bitwig to be so fast to navigate and get things done, it really is a great peice of software. The community seem happy compared to the Props and Ni communities, whom i interact with in their respective official and unnoficial forums (pretty lame that props got rid of theres).

Listning to the different batches of songs i made in reason, maschine, bitwig, and the combination of maschine and reason, i can honesty say though the sounds change, it always sounds like me. The mixing etc is what it boils down to. Some of my songs i made in reason 5 on n old laptop before i had decent monitors or even many refills, sound way better than ones i sloppily mixed in maschine or bitwig. I have made amazing sounds in reason and am really comfertable in it, but I honestl thing when all considered, Maschine as a hardware software hybrid is better than reason, bitwig has a much better workflow and some really cool features.

I have a quick workflow in reason cause ive used it so long, but honestly, after the v9 update i paid for i hardly used it, as the NI suite and Bitwig, both with their own problems, are just much better. Again, its cliche, but if reason had vst support it might swingit back in favour of props. It wont happen though.

And after buying Komplete 10, i felt utterly ripped off wih the Re's i had bought in the past. Both Props and NI are greedy companies, they seem to have a certain amount of contempt for long term users. I dont mean to be dramatic, but in my years of working shitty low paid jobs to buy their expensive products, I feel like i have been milked dry. Its my fault i made the descision to buy things. And NI seem slightly worse than Props in this regard.

I have had nothing but good experiences (besides the initial learning curve - which was actually fun) with Bitwig. If they keep delivering they will take a lot of props users in the future. They dont seem as hungry to appeal to new casual music makers at the expense of long term users. Honestly, try bitwig. Hive it time, and you will be flying round it. Kontakt would be a great investment as lots of free stuff out there. I read loads of people saying the same for years, but believed the people on the props forums saying "you can do it all in reason if you take the time and know how" - i took 15 fucking years and, though i achieved some good stuff, i made more ground in a month after learning bitwig than i did in reason in those 15 years..

Sorry for the short story ha ha

[Noplan]

I am a reason user for about 15 years and I have spent ~1000 Euros. That's ~5,50 € a month. (a small mcdonalds meal)

In comparison I wasted 150 € /month for cigarettes. That's in total 27000 €. (holy shit)

If you smoke cigarettes, just quit it and don't complain about the price of a DAW. Peanuts!

[wentzelitis]

Actually you can map a knob to a synth or any other controllable parameter by just right clicking. This functionality has been there for quite some time. You only have to edit map files if you're doing deep customization. In fact Propellerhead just happened to release this as a quick tip today. you can check their twitter page for it https://twitter.com/PropellerheadSW.

you misunderstood me. i want to be able to control multiple synths with the same knob, depending on which synth is open. you can NOT do this with reason. once you map a knob using your method, it is set to that knob. when you switch to another synth you will still control the knob from the first synth you mapped to. once you start having 8, 16, 24 knobs mapped to one synth, and have to switch all of them each time you open a new synth.. you can see where there's a problem

in fl studio you can simply push a button to map a knob across many different synths depending on which one you are using.. to be able to accomplish this with reason you must research and edit time consuming map and codec files


this is just one example of something that is needlessly complicated with reason that "Just works" in other daws.. there are many more

[chimp_spanner]

I understand the frustration, but Reason isn't the only DAW that has room for improvement. I'm not saying you're saying it is; but I mean Reason users can be quick to say "in this program I can just push a button". But it's a two way thing.

I've been on Cubase since version 1. And there's still no global undo. I still can't self contain samples in a project. I still can't put my automation in clips and copy/resize/reverse them. I still have no real control over signal routing beyond what the mixer allows. There's no CV. I can't drive a parameter of synth B with the mod envelope of synth A. I can't launch the software without a dongle. And so on.

Not saying this to invalidate any of your points because Reason definitely needs to improve in some areas. But there is this perception that it's somehow behind other DAWs because it doesn't do X Y or Z. But the more I work with Reason the more I feel Cubase is behind, at least when it comes to electronic music production and sound design.

Of course so long as I have to use Cubase to access Komplete 10 Ultimate, it'll always have its place. I tend to spend half my time in each depending on what I need to do. But I'm kind of at the point where I accept their differences and limitations and just make the most of what they do well.

What I wouldn't give for clip based automation in Cubase though....hhrrrnnggfff

[Raveshaper]

When you start making comparisons between over 2 years of work coding a custom ecosystem of codecs to achieve what you're talking about, versus just clicking something and moving on to using it...wow, that's perspective.

I'll have to look into what you're talking about. I don't think it can do what I'm working on, but I would give anything for more advanced features and options that I could then rapidly learn, use, and subsequently finish more projects with greater inspiration.

The "too bad" factor gets in the way of my creativity. Especially when I'm spending all my time patching holes in the program with my workarounds.
Save up for what you wish you had until you have them all. Then use the one that fits your style best. I think that's my plan.

[jonheal]

I love Reason ... but ... I think it has me royally constipated. Would the CRAPRE help??

[Cyclic79]

But the more I work with Reason the more I feel Cubase is behind, at least when it comes to electronic music production and sound design.

For me Cubase and Reason are 2 different "things", before "Record" i used to use Reason as an external very powerfull instrument and sound design tool. Now Reason can be considered as a complete DAW, i know that i can do all my work inside Reason, but i think that i work faster in Cubase than in Reason.
And Cubase is still a serious professional software, with a lot of hardware support, the ability to control the whole studio within Cubase it self, there is a lot of routing solution inside Cubase you can use a splitter on a 4 channel track to split lows and high, or use a 6 channel track, ultra rapid side-chain config. The midi inserts effects are awesome, the sound quality of Halion, Padshop, Retrologue... is really great, a lot of effects. The chord track, and with VST3 per note automation !!! when you want to bend just the fifth on a chord it's top !

Reason is one of the best sound designing tool, it has tons of presets, refills, but i don't thin that it will compete with Cubase or Pro-tools in big studios. I see Reason more like a sound "toy"... sorry for that, but it's my impression. But i still use it, i've buy the v9 over my old v6 and i don't regret it. But for know i hesitate to buy RE because i know that there is 85% chance that a sound made in Reason finish in a Cubase project.

If you are interested into a VST host DAW, take a look at Tracktion actually it's T7 but T5 is free !!! and it's an awesome soft too with a looot of routing capability.

[Marc64]

This with free updates for life makes me think ppl want everything for free...

[kitekrazy]

This with free updates for life makes me think ppl want everything for free...

That makes no sense unless you are a habitual Linux user.

I haven't seen any FL Studio users complain about any FL plugin released that it should be free. Sonar now has a lifetime updates and once again no complaints about getting more free stuff. Both throw in stuff for free whether you want it or not. There is also a major connect between the developers and end users of both companies, unlike Props who shut down their forums and the connection is Alihoopla (?). I've seen many fanboyz on DAW forums and most of them you think they live under a rack when it comes to other DAWs.

I like Reason for being a proprietary and not copying other DAWs. It is unique and in some ways cumbersome to other DAWs but it is the unique part that is enjoyable.

[kitekrazy]

mapping controllers is extremely cumbersome as well. just because i slyly threw in the vst knock doesn't mean that was the focus of my rant. with fl studio for instance you can simply push a button to map a knob to many synths at once. with reason.. have fun editing the map file for any synth you want to map a knob to at once. simple tasks like this are made unnecessarily complicated with reason, or simply aren't allowed at all. and you get to pay 150 bucks for each upgrade (that still doesn't address issues like this or requests from their userbase).. meanwhile other daws have much more frequent and useful updates.. that are free of charge! and the base program is cheaper on top of that and can do more. i wouldn't mind the base 400$ price (even though other daws can do more and are cheaper) as i don't mind paying extra for a product that i like.. but the updates on top of that, lack of features added, and limits to the software really are a slap in the face at times.

Actually you can map a knob to a synth or any other controllable parameter by just right clicking. This functionality has been there for quite some time. You only have to edit map files if you're doing deep customization. In fact Propellerhead just happened to release this as a quick tip today. you can check their twitter page for it https://twitter.com/PropellerheadSW.

There are only a select few DAWs that are cheaper and do "more than Reason". All the major ones are the same price as Reason except Logic ($200) and Pro Tools that is considerably more expensive. Even so "more than Reason" is generally more of a workflow thing rather than a lack of thing

From reading your original post though, most of your gripes with upgrading right before new releases are related to you not keeping up with the software. Reason 8 was released 2yrs before Reason 9, and you didn't know that Reason and Record were combined at version 6. Not saying you have to spend your life on this forum, but staying in the loop with what's happening in software would help you avoid upgrading right before a release again. But also, if you feel there's a lack of features added in a new version, why not just skip the upgrade? Upgrade price form any version is the same. I skipped Reason 8 entirely because of that.

Ultimately though, Try FLStudio out or whatever other cheaper DAW that's attractive to you and see if it works for you. Don't let price be the major determining factor. For instance Reaper is only $60 and does just as much as Studio One ($400), and some things even better. I bought Studio One anyway because I dislike the workflow in Reaper.

Reason was the first DAW where I would right click parameters. It was so easy compared to others. As for Reaper the deeper you get into it, it is amazing. Some have ditched Cubase, Pro Tools, and such.

[kitekrazy]

But the more I work with Reason the more I feel Cubase is behind, at least when it comes to electronic music production and sound design.

For me Cubase and Reason are 2 different "things", before "Record" i used to use Reason as an external very powerfull instrument and sound design tool. Now Reason can be considered as a complete DAW, i know that i can do all my work inside Reason, but i think that i work faster in Cubase than in Reason.
And Cubase is still a serious professional software, with a lot of hardware support, the ability to control the whole studio within Cubase it self, there is a lot of routing solution inside Cubase you can use a splitter on a 4 channel track to split lows and high, or use a 6 channel track, ultra rapid side-chain config. The midi inserts effects are awesome, the sound quality of Halion, Padshop, Retrologue... is really great, a lot of effects. The chord track, and with VST3 per note automation !!! when you want to bend just the fifth on a chord it's top !

Reason is one of the best sound designing tool, it has tons of presets, refills, but i don't thin that it will compete with Cubase or Pro-tools in big studios. I see Reason more like a sound "toy"... sorry for that, but it's my impression. But i still use it, i've buy the v9 over my old v6 and i don't regret it. But for know i hesitate to buy RE because i know that there is 85% chance that a sound made in Reason finish in a Cubase project.

If you are interested into a VST host DAW, take a look at Tracktion actually it's T7 but T5 is free !!! and it's an awesome soft too with a looot of routing capability.

Some people just don't understand some DAWs cater to certain genres. Cubase is great for film scoring. Reason is not.

[Ahornberg]

When I start a song/track in Reason and I feel I need some FX I can't find inside Reason I think about setting up JackAudio but I don't do it because it's a mess.

When I start a song/track in another DAW because I plan to use VSTs, the only thing I miss immediatly is Reason's workflow: blocks, note lanes, note editing, audio editing, cables

[chimp_spanner]

But the more I work with Reason the more I feel Cubase is behind, at least when it comes to electronic music production and sound design.

For me Cubase and Reason are 2 different "things", before "Record" i used to use Reason as an external very powerfull instrument and sound design tool. Now Reason can be considered as a complete DAW, i know that i can do all my work inside Reason, but i think that i work faster in Cubase than in Reason.
And Cubase is still a serious professional software, with a lot of hardware support, the ability to control the whole studio within Cubase it self, there is a lot of routing solution inside Cubase you can use a splitter on a 4 channel track to split lows and high, or use a 6 channel track, ultra rapid side-chain config. The midi inserts effects are awesome, the sound quality of Halion, Padshop, Retrologue... is really great, a lot of effects. The chord track, and with VST3 per note automation !!! when you want to bend just the fifth on a chord it's top !

Reason is one of the best sound designing tool, it has tons of presets, refills, but i don't thin that it will compete with Cubase or Pro-tools in big studios. I see Reason more like a sound "toy"... sorry for that, but it's my impression. But i still use it, i've buy the v9 over my old v6 and i don't regret it. But for know i hesitate to buy RE because i know that there is 85% chance that a sound made in Reason finish in a Cubase project.

If you are interested into a VST host DAW, take a look at Tracktion actually it's T7 but T5 is free !!! and it's an awesome soft too with a looot of routing capability.

Some people just don't understand some DAWs cater to certain genres. Cubase is great for film scoring. Reason is not.

Yeah pretty much this, although I'd never say it can't be done in Reason. It probably can, but not as easily from my own experience. If I could run Spitfire or even Kontakt Orchestral in Reason, it'd be a game changer! I know there are ways/workarounds but I'm talking full integration. But still, I've got Cubase when I need that stuff.

[Creativemind]

To be honest FL Studio Signature Bundle £280 which for a brand new software is probably the best deal (apart from maybe Logic) you're gonna get and it has virtually everything. It's a fantastic bit of kit and free lifetime updates. Superb!