Parallel channels in the rack

[superpop]

Hi all

If a use parallel channels in the rack I would still have phase and latency issues?

My heart belongs to rack

thanks

[satyr32]

Depends if the FX device you send to the parallel has latency. If yes then yes. If no then no.

[superpop]

Thank you satyr32.

Another question.

Let's say I have 2 tracks, kick drum and bass, and I create parallel channel for kick drum with a 20 samples latency RE.

VMG compensates the kick but wouldn't be bass 20 samples out of sync?

[submonsterz]

Thank you satyr32.

Another question.

Let's say I have 2 tracks, kick drum and bass, and I create parallel channel for kick drum with a 20 samples latency RE.

VMG compensates the kick but wouldn't be bass 20 samples out of sync?

yes it would be 20 samples ahead of the other two .
ie you have parallel channel with 20 samples you then add vmg to the original to compensate ie push it forward to match parallel channel that leaves the bass non compensated
so you have to then add a vmg to bass channel as well to shift to the 20 samples to match.
things get interesting when you add other channels with differing latencies with latent re`s its just a pure pain in the arse to work it all out to match.
I just don't bother no more I just record and pull back the audio to be in line with the rest so much easier than vmg head aches.

[selig]

If anyone can hear/feel 20 samples of latency in this scenario, then they are a better listener than I am. That amount of delay is at MOST half a millisecond (at 44.1 kHz), and less than that if using higher sample rates.


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[submonsterz]

If anyone can hear/feel 20 samples of latency in this scenario, then they are a better listener than I am. That amount of delay is at MOST half a millisecond (at 44.1 kHz), and less than that if using higher sample rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hmm here`s 2 and then 20 I can hear and see the difference as plain as daylight ...... at 44.1
if you cant then wow

[selig]

If anyone can hear/feel 20 samples of latency in this scenario, then they are a better listener than I am. That amount of delay is at MOST half a millisecond (at 44.1 kHz), and less than that if using higher sample rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hmm here`s 2 and then 20 I can hear and see the difference as plain as daylight ...... at 44.1
if you cant then wow

I said what I said, but you heard something different - you thought I said I can't hear the PHASE CANCELLATION between TWO otherwise identical tracks when one is delayed by 20 samples - I can, of course.

What I actually said was that in the specific case that is being discussed in THIS thread, I can't. That case is where the bass track is 20 samples away from the kick track. It's a feel thing, and I simply can't tell when one track out of many is delayed by 20 samples (half a millisecond) compared to the rest. Once you get up to 5-10 ms or more, things can become easier to hear - but 1/2 ms? No way, I'm not afraid to admit it!

Hopefully I'm being more clear now!

[submonsterz]

If anyone can hear/feel 20 samples of latency in this scenario, then they are a better listener than I am. That amount of delay is at MOST half a millisecond (at 44.1 kHz), and less than that if using higher sample rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hmm here`s 2 and then 20 I can hear and see the difference as plain as daylight ...... at 44.1
if you cant then wow

I said what I said, but you heard something different - you thought I said I can't hear the PHASE CANCELLATION between TWO otherwise identical tracks when one is delayed by 20 samples - I can, of course.

What I actually said was that in the specific case that is being discussed in THIS thread, I can't. That case is where the bass track is 20 samples away from the kick track. It's a feel thing, and I simply can't tell when one track out of many is delayed by 20 samples (half a millisecond) compared to the rest. Once you get up to 5-10 ms or more, things can become easier to hear - but 1/2 ms? No way, I'm not afraid to admit it!

Hopefully I'm being more clear now!

it matters though when you are paralleling something you need punch and clarity and it is dulling the sound ie compression on parallel that's latent it makes a huge difference .
and it also makes a difference with re`s that do beat repeats etc if your running it from a latent device etc it does not catch the start transient etc etc .
if you didn't correct the bass and you was running the three through certain plugs like I mention beat repeaters etc you get bass on target and the rest not caught etc etc.
I could go on but ill leave it there...

[submonsterz]

I can also hear a kick triggered on every beat and a bass in conjunction on every beat adding 20 to the kick or bass which ever hear the timing difference .
to me I can hear the difference sitting hear flicking back and fourth on off with 20 delay on either.
you can test this yourself and by lowering bpm it also becomes more apparent !!.
unless a video proving this is in order? id rather you hear it for yourself though its there and noticeable

[scifunk]

You guys worry too much about insignificant things. If you dont look for problems you wont find them.

[submonsterz]

well I can hear the delay and the change of sound here at 20.

[Exowildebeest]

I often add PMS20 and OchenK's Glitch to my drum and bass bus, sometimes more, which comes 80 samples latency or more (Glitch is 64 samples even when bypassed! That's a bug I think). With those amounts, and the importance of drums being "tight", I do compensate my other bus(ses) for the processing on the drum bus with the VMG nowadays.

But it's true that it's about milliseconds and not really that important. Slight latencies stack up throughout your entire rack anyway and things get a few samples out of time everywhere. Nothing to really worry about.

[selig]

well I can hear the delay and the change of sound here at 20.

Again, you have better ears than me then, and again I have absolutely no problem admitting I can't hear anything in this video that bothers me, and I'm confident in knowing that this is not a problem for me.

If it's a problem for you, then you probably already know how to fix it.

[scifunk]

Yeah there's a noticeable change but Im with Selig. I often shunt my bass line track back a frame or two anyway to make sure any sidechaining captures the start of the bass sounds.

[Noplan]

I have given up parallel processing in reason, because there are no reliable solutions to avoid phase cancelation. Props advertised parallel channels to fatten up your sound, but in the most cases it`s the opposite as it is now.

[normen]

1/2ms timing difference of a bass... Thats not even a quarter phase of the prominent waves.. Half a phase of a 1kHz wave... Respect from my side if you can actually hear that - I don't want to play in your band then.. How do you manage to mix your tracks if moving your head 15cm is causing issues for you?

[jfrichards]

In the real world, 1 ms delay is roughly equivalent to 1 foot away. Getting everything to be exactly in phase in the real world means placing all your singers, instruments, amps and reflective surfaces the exact same distance away from your ears. Good luck with that. With the current price of high-end concert tickets, each audience member could be given a pair of Sony MDR-7506's with a feed off the PA mixer and instrument line outs.

[Noplan]

The little delay between diffrent sources is not a problem, but within one source it can suck when you try to polish it. Since we have REs it gets more important to have a user-friendly control over it.

[jfrichards]

I don't mean to make light of phase issues. It is crucial to great sound. If you go to a concert and the PA person does the phasing wrong, the sound will be mushy. Quite often, delays from room reverb cause some frequencies to be several times louder and longer than normal. It's not just a phasing issue, but phasing can contribute a lot. Many times, severe EQ adjustments have to be made. Working the mixing board requires careful listening, and the same is true for recording/mixing. One example I hear right away in your example Sub, is that the 300 Hz sound is reduced by that particular phasing (and some other frequencies too), so I would raise the 300 a little to compensate if I could't adjust the phase. On the other hand, I like the tone of the sound with the phase issue, so I might leave it that way purely for tonality.

[Noplan]

If i want phase cancelation i would like to add it by myself and not the other way around.

[michal22]

I do not understand how you can not hear this delay.
Kick loses transient and impact - he will lost in the mix. In my opinion, such delay in the case of the drums are not permitted. It loses power.

[normen]

I do not understand how you can not hear this delay.
Kick loses transient and impact - he will lost in the mix. In my opinion, such delay in the case of the drums are not permitted. It loses power.

Again, we're talking about different things here. Again again, if you have the SAME SIGNAL, i.e. a parallel channel with THE SAME SIGNAL and introduce only a minute delay you get phasing issues. This is what everybody here agrees is very audible and a problem. And its exactly the problem the VMG-01 is made to solve.

If you have TWO SEPARATE SIGNALS, for example a snare drum and a bass drum or a bass and a bass drum, shifting one or the other by HALF A MILLISECOND will not be audible (except to submonsterz) or even change the "feel" of the part, that only becomes a "problem" when you have 5-10ms of difference.

The discussion came up because if you have a parallel channel which has e.g. 20 samples delay (1/2ms) and use the VMG-01 on the original channel, delaying it by 20 samples as well to avoid the phasing issues, the logical conclusion is that the whole part will now be 20 samples late in respect to the rest of the arrangement. Which as I and others argue is not really an issue given such short delays.

If we go back to the golden days of synths where everything was triggered by MIDI signals, often in MIDI THRU configurations - the original MIDI protocol itself causes almost 1 ms delay PER NOTE. This can become a (well known) issue if you have many synths all on one line but for a "normal" 8-Channel production nobody ever sweated about this.

[Marco Raaphorst]

(phase differences)

[Karim]

If anyone can hear/feel 20 samples of latency in this scenario, then they are a better listener than I am. That amount of delay is at MOST half a millisecond (at 44.1 kHz), and less than that if using higher sample rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hmm here`s 2 and then 20 I can hear and see the difference as plain as daylight ...... at 44.1
if you cant then wow

in certain point it can be hear almost a kind of flange ( is that phase cancelation we're speaking about?)

Inviato dal mio GT-I9301I utilizzando Tapatalk

[Gulale]

Of course it can be heard like day and night. Man the kick just lose the body all of a sudden. But all this will be over on Reason 9 so I don't think it is that much of a problem considering 9 is on the way. But this video shows how careful you have to be when you are mixing in Reason.