Kontakt->IDT conversions

[adfielding]

So... I recently succumbed to a Black Friday sale and picked up a Kontakt library I'd had my eye on for a while, which I have absolutely no doubt I'll get a ton of use out of.

Then I remembered - wasn't there talk of IDT-based REs being able to be created from Kontakt sample libraries a while back? Provided I'm not mis-remembering (which is entirely realistic), how come this hasn't taken off? Are there any actual examples of Kontakt libraries being converted for use in Reason yet? One of the main reasons I keep venturing out of Reason is to use fancy Kontakt libraries... in fact, if these libraries were available in Reason I think the only major instruments I'd venture out for would be Reaktor and Microtonic, both of which I don't expect to see in RE form any time soon. I even went out of my way to record and create a custom Combi from a chunk of a particular Kontakt library earlier in the year because I thought it would save me time in the long run. (spoiler alert: it totally did! )

I remember this sticking out as being a major pull for IDT REs a while back, and it's odd that nobody (to my knowledge) seems to have bitten yet.

[mcatalao]

Adam, i'd say it has taken off, as Project Sam, and Soundiron Emotional piano are probably that case. I don't know if others might have taken that road, but i would like East West and other sample developers to get into this.

I was going to pop a message to East West, but they parted their productline to their Play device a long time ago, and i saw a ugly respose for Reason Re's some time ago. And their take on that Composer Cloud, makes me think they do not want to go the partnership route again...

Project Sam is a good example, but i'm still a bit Reticent to make the plunge for it. I'm waiting them to add solo sections as imho that's REALLY important for an orchestral sound library.

[esselfortium]

IDT is intended to allow Kontakt instruments to be ported over, yes, though any scripts still have to be rewritten in IDT's language.

There was some talk earlier this year on KVR of Shreddage 2 being ported over to IDT, but it seems to be on the backburner at the moment. If that has some success when it finally happens, maybe it'll get us some more IDT stuff from Impact Soundworks. Their brass, strings, and choir libraries look excellent. Count me in as seriously hungry for some really good Kontakt instruments in Reason.

I recently started a trial of ProjectSAM and haven't found any available articulations (whether keyswitch or otherwise scripted), and it doesn't sound like there are any round robins or very many velocity layers, so it makes it a very difficult sell even when compared to the outdated Miroslav refill. I know there are some great libraries out there that include keyswitches, scripted sample switching for real portamento (mmm yes deliciousness), and lots of alternating samples, and I really really really wanna see some of them ported to Reason.

Which library did you pick up, btw?

[adfielding]

Adam, i'd say it has taken off, as Project Sam, and Soundiron Emotional piano are probably that case. I don't know if others might have taken that road, but i would like East West and other sample developers to get into this.

Ahh, see - they were right under my nose and I missed them, haha! I tried the ProjectSAM RE a while ago and I really was not impressed... though that might be because I own EWQLSO Gold, but it really didn't offer as much as I was expecting. Certainly not enough to tempt me into working primarily in Reason for orchestral stuff. Haven't tried the Soundiron Emotional Piano so that might be worth a go though, funnily enough, I'm more than happy with Radical Piano for all my piano needs these days

IDT is intended to allow Kontakt instruments to be ported over, yes, though any scripts still have to be rewritten in IDT's language.

That's interesting, because I was under the impression that it would port a lot of the scripting over as well - I figured that most of the work would be on the UI-side of things rather than the back-end. Interesting.

There was some talk earlier this year on KVR of Shreddage 2 being ported over to IDT, but it seems to be on the backburner at the moment. If that has some success when it finally happens, maybe it'll get us some more IDT stuff from Impact Soundworks. Their brass, strings, and choir libraries look excellent. Count me in as seriously hungry for some really good Kontakt instruments in Reason.

YES. YES PLEASE.

Which library did you pick up, btw?

This lovely chap.

http://www.heavyocity.com/product/gravity/

[Wook]

Hello Adam,

I exchanged few emails with a certain developer and he said that he won't port any of his libraries because Propellerheads take 50% cut on every sale. Of course, I don't know if this is really the case since I don't have access to IDT kit, but I can't see a reason for him to lie.

[joeyluck]

Hello Adam,

I exchanged few emails with a certain developer and he said that he won't port any of his libraries because Propellerheads take 50% cut on every sale. Of course, I don't know if this is really the case since I don't have access to IDT kit, but I can't see a reason for him to lie.

I believe this is correct. But you have to think, that likely goes towards not only RE SDK development, but the IDT development as well, and shop management/maitenece. It might not be attractive to every developer if they don't see the benefits.

[mcatalao]

That's an idiotic answer and position, specially because to create KONTACT stuff they still have a quite expensive toll on Licensing (wich i think they pay annually). You need a real good amount of sales to have a real turn over and with Reason you start making money in the first sale, as an IDT or Re developer does not pay any fee to Propellerheads unless he/she sells something!

That being said, i'm not buying more VST's or other plugins. I just hope Re's keep flowing, and people get what they really want/need, and in time we will get there. Project Sam, can evolve, either as an additional device for solo strings, or with some new sounds inside of it.

My only nitpick at this time, is that Proppellerheads should implement Disk Streaming on IDT's/Re's, and NN-XT. That way, I'm certain that Sample libraries, would look in to the format with different eyes/mindset.

The other issue i think is at stake is that Reason is a single DAW. With the other formats, they can cover a bunch of other DAW's and a lot more people (they are also more exposed to Piracy, but it doesn't seem their preoccupied with that.

[adfielding]

I don't have a problem with PH taking a cut, but 50% for a premium sample library seems kind of bonkers to me. That's a huge chunk, even if the PH shop offers (as of writing) 100% piracy protection... especially once you factor in the work involved in re-scripting and UI development for one specific platform.

[esselfortium]

I don't have a problem with PH taking a cut, but 50% for a premium sample library seems kind of bonkers to me. That's a huge chunk, even if the PH shop offers (as of writing) 100% piracy protection... especially once you factor in the work involved in re-scripting and UI development for one specific platform.

Agreed. With Propellerhead taking a 50% cut of every IDT sale, it makes the platform a very difficult sell, even moreso for the developers of more expensive higher-end Kontakt libraries.

[avasopht]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it's it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

That being said, small teams probably don't have in house MBA trained marketing personnel making pricing and market decisions, so yes, I've always seen it as a less marketable cut.

[joeyluck]

Maybe the percentage will change in the future? I think Propellerhead is doing what they can to move forward on something that Reason users and developers have been requesting given the resources and time Propellerhead has currently available.

[adfielding]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it's it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

That being said, small teams probably don't have in house MBA trained marketing personnel making pricing and market decisions, so yes, I've always seen it as a less marketable cut.

I think the main difference here is that Apple operates from a dominant position - there are a huge number of people already tied into the Apple ecosystem who are happy to buy through the store. I don't think the same could realistically be said of PH/REs compared to other DAWS/plug-in formats. Of course, this is all purely speculation on my part.

[Wook]

I believe this is correct. But you have to think, that likely goes towards not only RE SDK development, but the IDT development as well, and shop management/maitenece. It might not be attractive to every developer if they don't see the benefits.

Yes, I tried to explain those benefits to him. It reminded me of the time when I worked in customer service/sales.

But still, 50% is a big number and I do understand his reluctancy.

[esselfortium]

With Propellerhead taking a 50% cut of all IDT instrument sales, combined with the library devs needing to employ and pay someone to make their IDT ports happen, and the RE market being pretty small compared to the Kontakt market, it's not easy to guarantee that it'll pay off at all for the library devs. So the reluctance makes sense, I think, though it really sucks for users.

[JiggeryPokery]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it's it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

When you have an actual product in the PropShop, do feel free to come back and edit the above comment to reflect reality.

[Wook]

That's an idiotic answer and position, specially because to create KONTACT stuff they still have a quite expensive toll on Licensing (wich i think they pay annually). You need a real good amount of sales to have a real turn over and with Reason you start making money in the first sale, as an IDT or Re developer does not pay any fee to Propellerheads unless he/she sells something!

You are right in one way, but there is also another side of the equation. I believe it's 5000 USD to get rights to make Kontakt libraries. Now, if your libraries hit it big and you make 100 000 USD, you walk away with 95 000. With IDT you get only 50 000. It's a matter of perspective I guess.

[Wook]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it's it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

When you have an actual product in the PropShop, do feel free to come back and edit the above comment to reflect reality.

I wanted to say that, but since I'm not a dev, it would be misplaced.

[mcatalao]

I believe this is correct. But you have to think, that likely goes towards not only RE SDK development, but the IDT development as well, and shop management/maitenece. It might not be attractive to every developer if they don't see the benefits.

Yes, I tried to explain those benefits to him. It reminded me of the time when I worked in customer service/sales.

But still, 50% is a big number and I do understand his reluctancy.

But he must already have payed for the Kontakt Licensing. Something he has to do upfront before being able to develop anything.
It's as Avasoft is saying. Between 0 sales or 1000 sales from propellerheads users at 50%, he should decide it.

Business is business... IMHO the most important part is volume. With the other plugin formats, you are working for the world.

They even know that there are Reason users that use other daws, so they don't care. In their mind, if a Reason user likes/wants to use their samples he/she should rewire and be gone.... So why care? Why should i invest 5000 eur in labor if there is probably no volume at all?

[JiggeryPokery]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it's it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

When you have an actual product in the PropShop, do feel free to come back and edit the above comment to reflect reality.

I wanted to say that, but since I'm not a dev, it would be misplaced.

To be honest, I don't think one needs to be a dev to know that suggesting high-end sample libraries for Reason are comparable to Angry Birds on iOS is patently nonsense.

[joeyluck]

They even know that there are Reason users that use other daws, so they don't care. In their mind, if a Reason user likes/wants to use their samples he/she should rewire and be gone.... So why care? Why should i invest 5000 eur in labor if there is probably no volume at all?

True. I had contacted the developer, 'Output' about their libraries.
They make Rev and Signal. And most recently released Exhale which looks like fun. http://output.com/products/
At the time, they had only just released Rev.

Their first response:
Hi Joey,
Thanks so much for getting in touch! We're certainly excited about the opportunity that Rack Extensions afford Reason users. We've considered this option and at this time we have no plans of implementing REV into the Rack Extension format. However we will absolutely keep it in mind for future products.

When I followed up with them months later:
Hi Joey,
Great to hear from you again! Unfortunately there are still no plans to offer REV in Rack Extension format. I really appreciate your enthusiasm for REV. Please know that it's possible to use REV in Reason via an external MIDI device.

That last response was in December of last year. While I was disappointed, it felt nice to know that they had looked into Reason enough to know about the EMI... I felt my best chance to grab them was when they were on the scene with a single library—Rev. Now they seem to be on a steady path and they like what is working for them. And that's understandable. I may bug them again soon, but at this point I can guess the response. But who knows though! Maybe when they get a bit settled and have free time to look into it more?

[mcatalao]

Yeah, that's why i even didn't contact East West any more. I freaking insatalled Play's new version, and that's it. And i won't buy anything more from them, that stupid Composer Cloud model, makes me feel disgusted... I payed 1000+ eur not long ago for the Composers pack! :/

[avasopht]

To be honest, I don't think one needs to be a dev to know that suggesting high-end sample libraries for Reason are comparable to Angry Birds on iOS is patently nonsense.

My point JP is about making marketing decisions based on cost / benefit and not just the look of the numbers involved. Of course I know the market is not comparable to the iPhone market, that is common sense, come on

[mcatalao]

This being said, i think what Propellerheads did in the beggining aproaching plug in developers, to start working with Re's, should have been done with other developers. I mean it could be a great investment but they could try and go near Refill developers, and help them getting into the IDT format.

Because for once i feel the same as you guys, i was expecting to see more Big SAMPLE Library guys like EAST WEST, project Sam, etc, but on the other hand, i wonder why guys like New Atlantis Audio, even Sonic Reality, Etc, are not releasing stuff as IDT's.

One refill that i thought could be done as an IDT, was BFD Jazz and Funk. There could be so many stuff done with it as an IDT, its sound is amazing and functionally it could be WAY more interesting with idt technology (considering what has been done with the A-List). Still Nucleus Soundlab released it as a refill, i don't believe they didn't look at the format.

Still on the small developer side, consider this. If you sell a smal refill of an instrument, even with combinators, and such the impact is completely different than an idt. Consider the streamlined way you can develop Key changes with IDT's (again, based on what you do with the midi keyboard when working with A-List, wich in my understanding is an IDT), an idt though having more work to be done, could be sold at higher values (an instrument refill that cost 25 USD, could easilly go up to 50 or 70!).

And still, most things appearing as IDT's are sample based "Synths". Think about that.

[adfielding]

You are right in one way, but there is also another side of the equation. I believe it's 5000 USD to get rights to make Kontakt libraries. Now, if your libraries hit it big and you make 100 000 USD, you walk away with 95 000. With IDT you get only 50 000. It's a matter of perspective I guess.

Actually... I think that raises another interesting point - artificial curation.

If you're charging $5k just for the Kontakt license, then there's a pretty good chance that the only people who are going to pay for the license are people who are going to put out professional grade, really solid sample banks that they KNOW they're going to sell a lot of... and, of course, price it accordingly. Naturally, NI can afford to do that because they're already operating from a strong market position. I sort of feel like maybe PH are trying to operate with a similar mind-set, but they need to sweeten the deal a bit to bring some big names on board first. Of course, 50% of something is better than 75% of nothing, but I don't feel like the Props are operating from a strong enough position to do that. Again, pure speculation on my part!

As an aside - I'm sad to hear Rev won't be making it's way to Reason any time soon, I must admit I had my eye on Output's stuff today as well... though I figured one big purchase was enough for me, haha

[avasopht]

For me it's a simple numbers exercise.

You can take 70% of my sales if it results in more money than not entering the market. Imagine if Apple took 70% of Angry Bird's sales? Rovio would still be laughing all the way to the bank knowing they'd never have made that much without the platform. In the music industry for example, signed artists get something like 12% of revenue from a physical purchase, but 12% of several million dollars each year ain't too bad compared to 100% of independent sales at amateur gigs that reach at the most a couple thousand faces each year.

When you have an actual product in the PropShop, do feel free to come back and edit the above comment to reflect reality.

Not sure what you mean. To reiterate, "if it results in more money than not entering the market, ..."

If 50% is not viable then as per my logic I would not engage, it's as simple as that. So I'm failing to see how having an actual product in the PropShop would change any of that I'm not saying that a different percentage wouldn't be nicer, more profitable or make life easier but, and maybe I think this way because I'm not stuck in one single industry, I go to where the cheese is. Right now I've just completed writing a book to support one of our products (non music related) and we place our Google ads not on whether we want to pay more than £1 per click, but based on the profit* of buying ads at a given bid price.

That's just how I make decisions and unless I am mistaken is the classical way of making marketing decisions.

*: pre sales it would be an estimate, post sales a projection