Fighting latency

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iramrezso
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Joined: 27 Jan 2015

12 Nov 2015

If I want to process an audio track from Reason with an external effect, how can I eliminate the latency? Or using a midi track to play a real synth if it also gets latency?
Can I force Reason to send midi signals/audio track a bit earlier to get the processed signal back in time?

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jonheal
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12 Nov 2015

You can use Normen Hansen's VMG-01 to adjust for the latency.
Jon Heal:reason: :re: :refill:Do not click this link!

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submonsterz
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12 Nov 2015

jonheal wrote:You can use Normen Hansen's VMG-01 to adjust for the latency.
Lol good luck with that !!! To measure out board you normally have the latency from your audio card or interface etc . Most out board will be very little if no latency unless caused via midi lag or jitter. I'm not shure how Normas device can help here. For original op unless Norman or someone else comes shows how his device can be used for out board latency issues ill say this...
The only way I know and I use is to either find your interface latency and that will be near on or spot on or easiest way is to move your tracks manually forward to companate the out board tracks comming back in. I find by ear best . If you getting jitter that's a little bit more hit and miss I haven't found a way to rectify that if it happens.
I know there was latency ping programs but never tried them to know if they are good or not worth investigating though incase there is non buggy working ones .

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normen
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12 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:Lol good luck with that !!! To measure out board you normally have the latency from your audio card or interface etc . Most out board will be very little if no latency unless caused via midi lag or jitter. I'm not shure how Normas device can help here. For original op unless Norman or someone else comes shows how his device can be used for out board latency issues ill say this...
The only way I know and I use is to either find your interface latency and that will be near on or spot on or easiest way is to move your tracks manually forward to companate the out board tracks comming back in. I find by ear best . If you getting jitter that's a little bit more hit and miss I haven't found a way to rectify that if it happens.
I know there was latency ping programs but never tried them to know if they are good or not worth investigating though incase there is non buggy working ones .
Uh.. As soon as you have an output connected to an input - which you have to do anyway if you want to use external gear, just that the external device is in that chain - you just measure the latency using Reasons hardware interface and the VMG.. Just connecting an output to an input and using the VMG is actually the easiest way to find out your REAL roundtrip latency (not the lies of the driver panel).

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submonsterz
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12 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:Lol good luck with that !!! To measure out board you normally have the latency from your audio card or interface etc . Most out board will be very little if no latency unless caused via midi lag or jitter. I'm not shure how Normas device can help here. For original op unless Norman or someone else comes shows how his device can be used for out board latency issues ill say this...
The only way I know and I use is to either find your interface latency and that will be near on or spot on or easiest way is to move your tracks manually forward to companate the out board tracks comming back in. I find by ear best . If you getting jitter that's a little bit more hit and miss I haven't found a way to rectify that if it happens.
I know there was latency ping programs but never tried them to know if they are good or not worth investigating though incase there is non buggy working ones .
Uh.. As soon as you have an output connected to an input - which you have to do anyway if you want to use external gear, just that the external device is in that chain - you just measure the latency using Reasons hardware interface and the VMG.. Just connecting an output to an input and using the VMG is actually the easiest way to find out your REAL roundtrip latency (not the lies of the driver panel).
Not getting where the input will go to a synth ?? It's midi to it and audio back in where's the audio your device would need to measure it going ??
For out board effects ie compression yes doable but from a midi device I'm not seeing where your device can work here only being used to put on the original signal track ie the audio or midi track in reason he is trying to match by using it to shift any reason source audio
Last edited by submonsterz on 12 Nov 2015, edited 1 time in total.

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normen
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12 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:Not getting where the input will go to a synth ?? It's midi to it and audio back in where's the audio your device would need to measure it going ??
OP wants to "process an audio track from Reason with an external effect".

Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well.
Last edited by normen on 12 Nov 2015, edited 1 time in total.

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submonsterz
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12 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:Not getting where the input will go to a synth ?? It's midi to it and audio back in where's the audio your device would need to measure it going ??
OP wants to "process an audio track from Reason with an external effect".
He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)

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normen
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12 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.

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submonsterz
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12 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .

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normen
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12 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:Don't measure any jitter though
Not sure what you mean by "jitter" here but playing a synth doesn't have to be compensated sample accurate - MIDI itself doesn't give accuracy much below 1ms anyway.

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submonsterz
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13 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Again a video of this from you would be good showing it in action and working .

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selig
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13 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:
normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .
How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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Marco Raaphorst
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13 Nov 2015

For recording you can adjust the Recording Latency Compensation.

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normen
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13 Nov 2015

selig wrote:How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
How is jitter relevant here anyway? Jitter is variance in single sample placement so by definition something you can't deal with on the software side. If jitter becomes so bad that you get more than a sample drop/add per minute its time to rethink your wordclock sync setup or get a new audio interface ;)

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normen
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13 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:Again a video of this from you would be good showing it in action and working .
You neither need the VMG according to what you say nor do you seem to like or use Reason much, why would I do a video on your request? It works like any sample measurement with the VMG.

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submonsterz
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13 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:Again a video of this from you would be good showing it in action and working .
You neither need the VMG according to what you say nor do you seem to like or use Reason much, why would I do a video on your request? It works like any sample measurement with the VMG.
It's your product the manual sucks you have no seller support ie videos etc for your product I find it flakes at best to be honest especially if trying to use it with certain automated filters ie etch red etc. Plus I see others seem to not understand it or have asked how . Even a user ie ehuam made a video out of the kindness of his heart to explin it's use in the parallel situation . That should had been you Norman really as the developer you should address peoples want and request for product usage vidoes or tutorials. It's not a simple device beyond one track usage. If you want to know how to use it through a whole song or project with many tracks with latent devices in inserts or via parallels it's not easy for the average user to work out. Do yourself a favour take advice and maybe make the tutorials or videos covering the subjects the device is used for . And I own the VMG as u stated before and on using Reason I have over a thousand songs and countless loops and half finnished songs done on it and with other people since I got it as it went to 6.5 version so really don't use it.much ??.

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submonsterz
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13 Nov 2015

selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .
How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
It doesn't never said it did you can try to make me.look a fool for calling out Norman on his device but I also ask you to show this wonderful usage you get from it.in all the tracks you do hey show us one you have used vmg all through out sorting the.latency . You should have a good few by now that uses it so much . Just post it here later on tonight . I have a full studio of rack gear here to have experienced jitter here and there. And my set up is all different now interface wise and midi clock I've reverted back to my.old motu midi 128 I've experienced jitter on a couple of occasions with this set up even.

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submonsterz
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13 Nov 2015

normen wrote:
selig wrote:How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
How is jitter relevant here anyway? Jitter is variance in single sample placement so by definition something you can't deal with on the software side. If jitter becomes so bad that you get more than a sample drop/add per minute its time to rethink your wordclock sync setup or get a new audio interface ;)
It can be your host I thought too by the way if the host don't use midi time stamping in the midi buffer or is incorrectly using it so having a rock solid clock isn't allways a fix . There's a few ways jitter can be caused from what I've learnt over time ...
In fact thinking about it I don't think I ever had the problem in the amiga or atari falcon think thier clocks were probally more rock solid back then and dealt with midi buffers etc a lot better .

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selig
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13 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:
selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .
How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
It doesn't never said it did you can try to make me.look a fool for calling out Norman on his device but I also ask you to show this wonderful usage you get from it.in all the tracks you do hey show us one you have used vmg all through out sorting the.latency . You should have a good few by now that uses it so much . Just post it here later on tonight . I have a full studio of rack gear here to have experienced jitter here and there. And my set up is all different now interface wise and midi clock I've reverted back to my.old motu midi 128 I've experienced jitter on a couple of occasions with this set up even.
Not trying to make you or anyone else look a fool here at all, just asking why you say moving a track back is a better way to deal with jitter - or maybe I've misunderstood why you are mentioning jitter in the same reply as moving audio back? Apologies if it appears I'm taking sides or even have a horse in this race. All I want is to be able to ask questions, same as you, and not be accused of any anterior motive.

And in my only post in this thread I said nothing of VMG, as in the "wonderful usage in all the tracks I do" or anything about using VMG "all through out sorting the latency". Not sure where this is coming from…carry on!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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submonsterz
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13 Nov 2015

selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .
How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
It doesn't never said it did you can try to make me.look a fool for calling out Norman on his device but I also ask you to show this wonderful usage you get from it.in all the tracks you do hey show us one you have used vmg all through out sorting the.latency . You should have a good few by now that uses it so much . Just post it here later on tonight . I have a full studio of rack gear here to have experienced jitter here and there. And my set up is all different now interface wise and midi clock I've reverted back to my.old motu midi 128 I've experienced jitter on a couple of occasions with this set up even.
Not trying to make you or anyone else look a fool here at all, just asking why you say moving a track back is a better way to deal with jitter - or maybe I've misunderstood why you are mentioning jitter in the same reply as moving audio back? Apologies if it appears I'm taking sides or even have a horse in this race. All I want is to be able to ask questions, same as you, and not be accused of any anterior motive.

And in my only post in this thread I said nothing of VMG, as in the "wonderful usage in all the tracks I do" or anything about using VMG "all through out sorting the latency". Not sure where this is coming from…carry on!
:)
Maybe I wrote it so you looked at what I said after saying his device cannot deal with jitter as being in conjunction to that point I raised the next part was at the whole of the above I find it easier to move the recorded audio back in time with the originals all though reason can't be zoomed to sample increments it's just enough to get it at least on .
I find it simpler to record then do that instead of trying to do the math and trying to work out the latency of many tracks all with.latent devices in them.
And on the usage quote you almost endorsed it in another thread I can go copy paste once I find it. If you like. No matter how Norman has created this device to do what it does its still very user unfriendly to most people and not through his fault I know that it's the re paradigm of not allowing them to get at reasons core workings which I'm shure he could had made a far better device and more better for all with the said allowance of a device being able to communicate with reason and other devices but I suppose all devices would have to send some sort of time stamp etc for the creation of such to also work.

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normen
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13 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:It can be your host I thought too by the way if the host don't use midi time stamping in the midi buffer or is incorrectly using it so having a rock solid clock isn't allways a fix . There's a few ways jitter can be caused from what I've learnt over time ...
In fact thinking about it I don't think I ever had the problem in the amiga or atari falcon think thier clocks were probally more rock solid back then and dealt with midi buffers etc a lot better .
So you're talking about MIDI, not audio jitter. Again, the normal MIDI connection gets about a millisecond of variance for every note played. Especially if you have an oldschool setup with synths etc. this is a very old and known issue. And it doesn't have anything to do with audio sync really.

As for your other comments I find your posts hard to understand - you don't like to read the manual and want a video, alright. Regarding general support for the device I answered every single support request I got via my site in less than a day so I don't follow you there (and also don't see any mail from you in my inbox). The rest I found hard to decipher apart from an undertone of disliking me personally. Its funny how threads mentioning the VMG on this forum lately become more about me than the device or actual issues with it..

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selig
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13 Nov 2015

submonsterz wrote:
selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
selig wrote:
submonsterz wrote:
normen wrote:
submonsterz wrote:He also asks or to play a real midi synth read again I addressed that issue ;)
Copy-Pasting my edit from above:
Edit: But your "issue" could be solved as well. Actually the VMG can measure any peak. So if you make a MIDI note and automate the measure button at the same time in Reason and then make the external synth play something with zero attack you could measure that latency as well - including the latency of the MIDI connection.
Don't measure any jitter though
Any how still think easier to record and move the audio back much simpler to me .
How does that approach deal with jitter?
:)
It doesn't never said it did you can try to make me.look a fool for calling out Norman on his device but I also ask you to show this wonderful usage you get from it.in all the tracks you do hey show us one you have used vmg all through out sorting the.latency . You should have a good few by now that uses it so much . Just post it here later on tonight . I have a full studio of rack gear here to have experienced jitter here and there. And my set up is all different now interface wise and midi clock I've reverted back to my.old motu midi 128 I've experienced jitter on a couple of occasions with this set up even.
Not trying to make you or anyone else look a fool here at all, just asking why you say moving a track back is a better way to deal with jitter - or maybe I've misunderstood why you are mentioning jitter in the same reply as moving audio back? Apologies if it appears I'm taking sides or even have a horse in this race. All I want is to be able to ask questions, same as you, and not be accused of any anterior motive.

And in my only post in this thread I said nothing of VMG, as in the "wonderful usage in all the tracks I do" or anything about using VMG "all through out sorting the latency". Not sure where this is coming from…carry on!
:)
Maybe I wrote it so you looked at what I said after saying his device cannot deal with jitter as being in conjunction to that point I raised the next part was at the whole of the above I find it easier to move the recorded audio back in time with the originals all though reason can't be zoomed to sample increments it's just enough to get it at least on .
I find it simpler to record then do that instead of trying to do the math and trying to work out the latency of many tracks all with.latent devices in them.
And on the usage quote you almost endorsed it in another thread I can go copy paste once I find it. If you like. No matter how Norman has created this device to do what it does its still very user unfriendly to most people and not through his fault I know that it's the re paradigm of not allowing them to get at reasons core workings which I'm shure he could had made a far better device and more better for all with the said allowance of a device being able to communicate with reason and other devices but I suppose all devices would have to send some sort of time stamp etc for the creation of such to also work.
OK, yes I use VMG for parallel tracks and find it works perfectly - what more do you want to know about how I use it? I don't tend to use a ton of parallel tracks in my mixes, and also do quite a bit of mixing outside of Reason (in Pro Tools). I'm always happy to share anything I do if it will help someone else, so let me know what you're looking for and I'll see what I've got!

Also, I feel this needs to be said as it may explain some of what is going on here: I think some of us are having trouble understanding your writing style more than anything - I don't dispute you fully know what you're talking about, but long run-on sentences and random punctuation/spaces DO make it more difficult to follow your thought process IMO. Not trying to be the grammar police here, keep on writing how you write if you like - but you should know that for some it's not easy to follow your thought process with your writing style. Or maybe it's just me, I'm willing to agree to that!

As for VMG-01 - I find it's about the simplest device out there, works as advertised, there is nothing else out there that addresses the issues it addresses, and it's solved all latency problems for me where nothing else could do so. If it's not for you, it's not for you - you'll get no argument from me on this!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

Ronin
Posts: 182
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13 Nov 2015

selig wrote:Or maybe it's just me
Nope. He is very hard to understand. Its almost as if someone wrote a paragraph with no punctuation and then took a handful of fullstops and just threw them at the page randomly. I have to read the posts a few times before they make sense to me.

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jonheal
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13 Nov 2015

Maybe English is not his first language? Or maybe he is composing on a phone like I'm doing here which is a panful process and not one which God intended.
Jon Heal:reason: :re: :refill:Do not click this link!

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selig
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13 Nov 2015

jonheal wrote:Maybe English is not his first language? Or maybe he is composing on a phone like I'm doing here which is a panful process and not one which God intended.
I totally understand - again I'm not trying to be the grammar police as I'm fine with working through text to try to find the intended meaning. But it does totally slow down the process and often leads to misunderstandings as I believe may have happened here.

I also try to follow my own advice and not take things personally here for just such reasons!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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