Making tracks louder

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HighWatt
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26 Sep 2015

Hello all,

I'm using Reason 6 and have been a Reason user since 2, but still feel like such a novice. First time to post here.

So, I have read several other posts on this subject but have a new question.

On many songs, I seem to have to put a compressor in the path of most of the instruments just to get the signal up to around -10db which is the number I've seen suggested. Usually, the instruments mentioned have their own volumes as far as they can go without clipping.

I'm trying to get these songs (individual tracks) ready to export to Logic and figured they needed to be louder than they were.

Is this a normal strategy? Is there a more preferred method? Am I even thinking about this in the right way (i.e. in reference to exporting to Logic)?

I have not yet got into rack extensions, I don't even think I can with Reason 6, can I? Maybe there are gain boosting rack extensions, or something?

Thanks for any input.

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dvdrtldg
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26 Sep 2015

Rack extensions require Reason 6.5 or higher

I'm not sure how to answer the tech specs of your question but as to whether or not there's a dedicated RE for gain boosting, there sure is:

https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-gain/

Amazing device, has a variety of other uses as well as simply making shit louder

Gulale
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26 Sep 2015

I have lost you here. Isn't that selig gain is a metering tool? is it a maximiser or limiter? How does it make sound loud?
Gulale aka Bereket

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EnochLight
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26 Sep 2015

Selig's Gain is an awesome RE, but it won't make anything louder anymore than turning up the level on the existing mixer. Gain is a specialized metering accessory.

What the OP would likely benefit from would be a maximizer such as Ozone or Kronos, etc. But, as was already said - he needs 6.5 at least for RE's. Most require 7.1 or higher these days.

That said, if the OP plans to mix in Logic, he/she would likely be better suited to just bring his levels up in Reason's mixer and do all the limiting/maximizing in Logic.
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selig
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26 Sep 2015

HighWatt wrote:Hello all,

I'm using Reason 6 and have been a Reason user since 2, but still feel like such a novice. First time to post here.

So, I have read several other posts on this subject but have a new question.

On many songs, I seem to have to put a compressor in the path of most of the instruments just to get the signal up to around -10db which is the number I've seen suggested.
First, let me stop you there and clarify something. You said "to get the signal up around - 10 dB - but you didn't mention what type of meter you are using. If you said you were shooting for a level of - 10 dBFS PEAK it would be one thing, but if you said - 10 dBFS VU it would be another. The thing is that Reason's channel meters are VU which is a lower level than PEAK level. BUT (and this is big), it's PEAK levels that will clip long before VU levels, so it's PEAK levels that are the absolute key here to measure.
HighWatt wrote:Usually, the instruments mentioned have their own volumes as far as they can go without clipping.
Now this next sentence contradicts the previous one. You can't have all instruments hitting - 10 dBFS peaks (or VU) AND have their volumes "as far as they can go without clipping". These are two very different levels!!!
HighWatt wrote:I'm trying to get these songs (individual tracks) ready to export to Logic and figured they needed to be louder than they were.

Is this a normal strategy? Is there a more preferred method? Am I even thinking about this in the right way (i.e. in reference to exporting to Logic)?

I have not yet got into rack extensions, I don't even think I can with Reason 6, can I? Maybe there are gain boosting rack extensions, or something?

Thanks for any input.
OK this next part doesn't make sense. It really doesn't matter WHAT the individual track levels are (to a point - see below) when exporting to Logic. That being said, it IS strongly suggested you do a few things for "best practices" with regards to individual track levels, which I'll outline below.

The first thing to point out is that you can't have all individual tracks "as loud as they can go without clipping" and not make extra work for yourself down the line. The reason? If all tracks are close to clipping and you combine them in a mixer, you WILL clip your mix/outputs. It's like trying to pour a bunch of full glasses of water into a single equal-sized glass - the water WILL overflow as soon as you add the the second glass!!!

In other words, you can't add a bunch of signals at 100% together and not go over 100%. So the first concept I want to stress here is that you MUST leave some headroom in each individual track, OR you will have to pull all your faders down a good bit to prevent clipping. Remember that with all analog mixers and tape machines this headroom is already built in - also remember that tape machines/analog consoles have a "0 dB" point that is NOT the clipping point - they have some "headroom" above this point (often as much as 20 dB or more).

So in digital systems we think of "0 dB" quite differently than with all analog systems of the past, and this is where some confusion comes in IMO. Cutting to the chase, you need to build in some headroom for all individual tracks in a digital system, and you need to use PEAK meters to measure these levels. It is suggested to leave 12 dB headroom in most digital systems, and this is exactly what Reason expects as well. The evidence is as follows: the audio track meters in the sequencer turn yellow at -11 dBFS to tell you that you are above the suggested peak level for that track - you're not clipping yet, but you are ABOVE the suggested peak level. Also, all of the newer Factory Sound Bank tracks follow this level as well, hitting peaks around -12 dBFS when played at their typical levels (I worked on some of these new patches and this was the rule we were told to follow). So it's because of this that I too have chosen to use the reference level of Peaks @ -12 dBFS for all tracks. I'm not too worried when tracks fall slightly above or below this level - there IS some wiggle room here.

Finally, a "Gain Boosting" Rack Extension would be nothing more than a volume knob. Reason instruments all have volume knobs, so I use them to make final adjustments to all levels to hit my reference level. The problem in Reason is that there are no Peak Meters except for on the Audio Tracks in the sequencer which you only see when recording to that track, and on the final outputs of the Big Mixer (SSL mixer) - and even then you have to make sure they are switched to show PEAK levels! That's one of the main reasons I created the Selig Gain RE and gave it a Peak Hold meter!

To get around this limitation in Reason the best you can do when you don't have access to REs is to solo each track and use the Big Meter set to show Peak levels. You should do this before you make any adjustments to that channel. Hope this all makes sense and helps!
:)
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Thousand Ways
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26 Sep 2015

selig wrote:If all tracks are close to clipping and you combine them in a mixer, you WILL clip your mix/outputs. It's like trying to pour a bunch of full glasses of water into a single equal-sized glass - the water WILL overflow as soon as you add the the second glass!!!
I understand the principle, from your analogy. But I don't understand what you mean by "headroom" – is this the volume that a channel is capable of but is not currently being used? Eg. if you have a synth playing at 60% of the full volume it would be capable of, is the "headroom" the remaining unused 40%?
selig wrote:you MUST leave some headroom in each individual track, OR you will have to pull all your faders down a good bit to prevent clipping.
Surely you could have the individual tracks very loud, and just lower the master volume?
selig wrote:Remember that with all analog mixers and tape machines this headroom is already built in
You've lost me here.
selig wrote:It is suggested to leave 12 dB headroom in most digital systems, and this is exactly what Reason expects as well.
Where is this suggested, and by whom? Is the 12dB gauged via the master volume level, or is there something else that measures the "headroom"?

Does the Selig Gain automatically prevent clipping? What's the difference between that and a maximizer?

Apologies for the doubtless basic level of the questions. As per HighWatt, I've had a lot of problems trying to make tracks louder in general.

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normen
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26 Sep 2015

Actually most digital mixing desks are built according to the EBU spec which recommends the "old" 0dB mark of analog desks should be at -18dBFS in digital equipment: https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r068.pdf

HighWatt
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26 Sep 2015

Thank you to everyone for your contributions!

Great information and so much for me to absorb and think about.

In regards to the many great points made by selig, I guess one of my main problems is which meter from which to measure.

I do have the meter mode on the Big Meter set to VU and Peak, but I guess I should set it for just peak?

Also, are the small meters on the instruments themselves irrelevant? I realize they have no measurements but they do indicate clipping.

So, it would seem that maybe I'm putting too much importance on the level of each track in regards to exporting to Logic...?

I'm sure I'm missing many questions to ask but I'm still trying to assimilate the information.

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selig
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26 Sep 2015

normen wrote:Actually most digital mixing desks are built according to the EBU spec which recommends the "old" 0dB mark of analog desks should be at -18dBFS in digital equipment: https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r068.pdf
Good point, as always Normen! I find 18 dB is more than enough headroom and have adopted 12 dB for working in Reason and Pro Tools. FWIW, most analog desks had 20 dB or more headroom built in, so even the 18 dB level is less than a typical analog system as I understand it.
:)
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selig
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26 Sep 2015

Thousand Ways wrote:
selig wrote:If all tracks are close to clipping and you combine them in a mixer, you WILL clip your mix/outputs. It's like trying to pour a bunch of full glasses of water into a single equal-sized glass - the water WILL overflow as soon as you add the the second glass!!!
I understand the principle, from your analogy. But I don't understand what you mean by "headroom" – is this the volume that a channel is capable of but is not currently being used? Eg. if you have a synth playing at 60% of the full volume it would be capable of, is the "headroom" the remaining unused 40%?
selig wrote:you MUST leave some headroom in each individual track, OR you will have to pull all your faders down a good bit to prevent clipping.
Surely you could have the individual tracks very loud, and just lower the master volume?
selig wrote:Remember that with all analog mixers and tape machines this headroom is already built in
You've lost me here.
selig wrote:It is suggested to leave 12 dB headroom in most digital systems, and this is exactly what Reason expects as well.
Where is this suggested, and by whom? Is the 12dB gauged via the master volume level, or is there something else that measures the "headroom"?

Does the Selig Gain automatically prevent clipping? What's the difference between that and a maximizer?

Apologies for the doubtless basic level of the questions. As per HighWatt, I've had a lot of problems trying to make tracks louder in general.
Yes, you correctly describe what is meant by headroom
Yes, you CAN leave individual tracks loud, but that is not the "nominal" level that the mixer is expecting. This would only come into play with non-linear devices such as compressors, saturators, and amp sims etc. Also, most analog gear, specifically mic preamps, also have a nominal
level which is below 0 dBFS - pushing the levels up to 0 dBFS no only risks clipping but also pushes the analog circuits past their nominal levels.
Headroom is "built in" to analog systems via their metering, which puts their "0 dB" level well below the clipping point (often 18-22 dB below clipping).
-12 dBFS levels are suggested in the most excellent Reason User Guide:
Image
No, Selig Gain is a gain change device only.

As for making tracks louder, you are talking about something entirely different. Loudness is subjective. Not everyone even agrees on what "twice as loud" is, similar to trying to get folks to agree on what twice as hot or twice as cold is. One way the general concept of loudness can be understood/measured is by comparing the peak level to the average level. The difference between the peak and average level is called the Crest Factor. By decreasing the Crest Factor you are essentially decreasing the dynamic range. This is most often done by dynamics or saturation devices, which can (when set correctly) decrease the dynamic range and thus sound "louder". But as always, there is no free lunch - decreasing the dynamic range often adds distortion (sometimes desirable), so there's only so far you can go before you create undesirable artifacts.

As for creating louder mixes, I always suggest starting with loud samples/patch, building loud arrangements by avoiding putting all your instruments/vocals in the same frequency ranges or playing at the same time, and using subtle compression at multiple stages rather than simply squashing the crap out of the mix at the mastering stage. In other words, your mix should already be loud BEFORE you master it, allowing the mastering process to provide subtle dynamic enhancement so you can match all tracks in your project to a similar loudness.
:)
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ebop
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26 Sep 2015

There are some gold dust comments in this thread. I've copied/pasted bits to notes on my phone so I can refer back to them. There are things in here that I would not understand or learn from reading a manual. When I read comments that are written for the layman I understand so much better. Thnx Selig! :)

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boggg1
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26 Sep 2015

You're not missing the little blue level control at the top of the channel strips are you ?
I recommend this video for understanding signal levels in a DAW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT5Nw-ZoEnE
The parent site is being reconstructed at this moment (or so it says) but I also recommend his videos or SSL compression and SSL limiting for anyone without huge practical experience. And his diagram of the complete signal chain in Reason (excluding REs) is compulsory reading for anyone who has not worked it out yet.

I'm a physicist/Engineer not a sound expert and I have no contention with anything which has been said in this thread. But maybe I can make it simpler because the wording in the question is making it harder than necessary (no offence meant).

Loudness vs Gain
Don't confuse loudness (which has everything to do with how much volume a human perceives a sound has) with peak-peak signal levels (which is how we set the levels so that the DAW and any subsequent processing operate optimally). Specifically the peak signal should never clip (unless you add distortion deliberately) and its level should be much greater than the noise level. Peak-peak signal level is set by gain staging using the strategy above or something very similar and is measured using peak-peak meters. Loudness is measured using a loudness meter (there are two REs which do the job and software such as Ozone has professional quality meters with multiple professional standards). VU meters give some some of average level which is generally closer to loudness (better than no metering at all) but is useless for measuring peak-peak signal levels and therefore useless for gain staging,

So...
Loudness is measured using a loudness meter (although VU meters are some sort of compromise) and is the volume perceived by a human.
Peak-peak signal levels use a peak-peak meter and allow the signal levels to be optimised for the digital processing (no clipping and signal levels well above noise levels) and are optimised using a technique called gain staging.

As far as achieving gain staging, there are times when the blue knob does not have enough gain. In this case use any of the gain controls available to you. Be aware that gain adjusted in this way will alter the quality of the sound if there are any non-linear components after the gain knob (such as compressors, distortions, maximisers, phasers, choruses etc). Gain can be adjusted using:
All signal types - the blue input gain knob - perhaps first choice when you first add the new sound
Instruments and effects - the gain controls on the instrument / effect
While recording an instrument or voice - the gain knob on the input hardware
A recorded signal - the up/down arrows on the signal representation in the clip
Selig Gain - which simply adds gain (amongst other tasks it can do)
Any other gain source I have forgotten
Personally, Selig Gain has my vote as the best value RE there is, I use it regularly for pure gain to compensate for low level signals.
:reason: :record: :refill: :re: :ignition: :PUF_balance: :refillpacker: :rt:

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gak
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27 Sep 2015


HighWatt
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27 Sep 2015

There really is so much for consideration in this thread. I never expected such a response, but I definitely appreciate it.

I'm trying to understand it all so that I can better phrase my questions. It is bad when one doesn't even know enough to ask the questions correctly.

Part of what I was getting at in the original post was that there seem to be so many places from which to observe/measure the signal level, (e.g. channel strip, Big Meter, the meter on some instruments, master) that I wonder which is the one to watch.

It seems maybe the Big Meter.....

For example, I was just looking at a song and the master is peaking at about -12db but the Big Meter (set to peak mode) is not anywhere near that.

In fact, it seems to be doing nothing. It just hovers around -65db whether or not the track is playing.

Apparently I'm not using the fracking thing correctly....

HighWatt
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27 Sep 2015

Ummmm, yes I was missing the little blue knob. Thank you bogg1 !

That changes a few things.


Update: I made the Big Meter work. Is it possible to feel stupid and great at the same time?

Thousand Ways
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27 Sep 2015

Selig and all, many thanks for your contributions. I've been using Reason for years, but am ignorant of many of the terms used, and some of the concepts. I have always thought of volume, measured in decibels or anything else, as something that can increase exponentially, although obviously there's only so much that a particular instrument or device can take before it's overdriven. I had never heard of 'dBFS', and had to look this up. The concept of there being a 'full scale' is what I find unfamiliar. (It also seems a bad acronym, since it should be 'dBRTFS', but that's by-the-by.)
HighWatt wrote:I do have the meter mode on the Big Meter set to VU and Peak, but I guess I should set it for just peak?
I'm likewise unsure about this. I find that meter a bit irritating in some modes, since it implies a left and right signal, rather than two signals measuring different things.

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selig
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27 Sep 2015

I find the big meter to be most useful when set to VU + Peak mode, as it becomes not only a useful peak meter but also a loudness meter of sorts. By showing VU and Peak you can easily read Crest Factor (the difference between the two). When using a brick wall limiter that holds the peak level to near 0 dBFS, it is the VU level that will directly reflect the Crest Factor - SIMPLES!

For mixing, the crest factor can be at a place of your choosing based on the type of material you produce, but I feel it's best to compare other similar tracks to see what levels they show. For much of my more mainstream "pop" tracks (for lack of a better word), I find a crest factor of 12 dB for mixes to be a great starting point. Of course, this level varies through the song, and I use this value more as an upper average of the overall level. In contrast, some jazz and classical music can have a Crest Factor down at 20 dB or lower, and some super compressed tracks can read upwards of 8-9 dB. It's difficult to go much lower with the Crest Factor than that without introducing large amounts of distortion, which in some extreme cases isn't an issue (aggressive sample based dance music comes to mind).
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avasopht
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27 Sep 2015

There's sooo much to learn if you want to reduce the crest factor while preserving quality.

First of all get your mixing on point. Read as many articles as you can, here is a good starting point: https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar12/ ... udness.htm

And don't be limited to only thinking in terms of the tools you have. As you master your craft you will begin imagining your own effects, and you may even be able to create them yourself with a Combinator, Reaktor or a Rack Extension (maybe with the help of another programmer).

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gak
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28 Sep 2015

HighWatt wrote:Ummmm, yes I was missing the little blue knob. Thank you bogg1 !

That changes a few things.


Update: I made the Big Meter work. Is it possible to feel stupid and great at the same time?
Yes! And it just means you are amongst friends. Happens all the time.

Thousand Ways
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28 Sep 2015

boggg1 wrote:You're not missing the little blue level control at the top of the channel strips are you ?
Yes. I've never used them. Nor do I understand why there needs to be a difference between 'gain' and 'volume'. As far as I understand, these aren't really measuring two different parameters. It isn't like measuring, say, distance and time simultaneously.
boggg1 wrote:I recommend this video for understanding signal levels in a DAW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT5Nw-ZoEnE
What do any of you think of the levels suggested in this video? Are they reasonable or daft?
boggg1 wrote:And his diagram of the complete signal chain in Reason (excluding REs) is compulsory reading for anyone who has not worked it out yet.
Is that the "SSL Signal Flow Diagram – JPG"?

Thousand Ways
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28 Sep 2015

Further to my post above:

1) If I've never used the blue Gain knob on any channel on any of my tracks before, why do I need to start using it now? Is it not possible to create perfectly acceptable mixes in Reason by simply turning Volume faders up and down?

2) The Gain knobs, as per the Volume faders, make signals louder or quieter. What's the advantage of using the Gain knobs instead of the Volume ones? And if both of these things are performing the same function, why do the Gain knobs exist at all?

3) If the blue Gain knobs are so important, why are they hidden out of the way at the very top of the channel strip?

4) Tutorials such as the one recommended by Boggg1 above, and likewise some of the posts above, discuss 'recommended' levels for channel signals. How can this make sense? In most mixing situations you will want some instruments to be louder than others, not all at the same volume. So what's the logic behind using the Gain knob (in conjunction with the Volume fader? Or not?) to drag all signals to the same level? For instance, in the aforementioned tutorial the level of –10 to –7 ("pick one", he says, apparently arbitrarily) is suggested.

The more I look at this, the more complicated – and unnecessary – the Gain issue seems to be …

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selig
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28 Sep 2015

Thousand Ways wrote:
boggg1 wrote:You're not missing the little blue level control at the top of the channel strips are you ?
Yes. I've never used them. Nor do I understand why there needs to be a difference between 'gain' and 'volume'. As far as I understand, these aren't really measuring two different parameters. It isn't like measuring, say, distance and time simultaneously.
boggg1 wrote:I recommend this video for understanding signal levels in a DAW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT5Nw-ZoEnE
What do any of you think of the levels suggested in this video? Are they reasonable or daft?
boggg1 wrote:And his diagram of the complete signal chain in Reason (excluding REs) is compulsory reading for anyone who has not worked it out yet.
Is that the "SSL Signal Flow Diagram – JPG"?
If this is the same video and diagram he posted on the old PUF, it has been pointed out countless times that there are some obvious errors there. If not, disregard!
:)
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Thousand Ways
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29 Sep 2015

selig wrote:If this is the same video and diagram he posted on the old PUF, it has been pointed out countless times that there are some obvious errors there. If not, disregard!
Can't tell – there seems to be only one such video by him currently online, so I've nothing to compare it with. Presumably you also disagree with what Boggg1 wrote?
boggg1 wrote:And his diagram of the complete signal chain in Reason (excluding REs) is compulsory reading for anyone who has not worked it out yet.
I downloaded what I think is the diagram that Boggg1 is referring to (the second item in the 'Documents/PDF' list at http://www.learnreason.com/free-stuff/), but it doesn't seem to say much that isn't in the v8 manual.

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selig
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29 Sep 2015

Thousand Ways wrote:
selig wrote:If this is the same video and diagram he posted on the old PUF, it has been pointed out countless times that there are some obvious errors there. If not, disregard!
Can't tell – there seems to be only one such video by him currently online, so I've nothing to compare it with. Presumably you also disagree with what Boggg1 wrote?
boggg1 wrote:And his diagram of the complete signal chain in Reason (excluding REs) is compulsory reading for anyone who has not worked it out yet.
I downloaded what I think is the diagram that Boggg1 is referring to (the second item in the 'Documents/PDF' list at http://www.learnreason.com/free-stuff/), but it doesn't seem to say much that isn't in the v8 manual.
Boggg1 wrote an excellent post, mentioning things the video never mentioned and dressing some things like the difference between Peak and VU levels. The video I saw suggest to use VU levels and to continually lower the master fader (because the VU meters don't show true peak levels but the master meter does). As for the diagram, maybe he saw the light and listened to what others were telling him - I don't know and as I mentioned in the text you quoted, if they have been corrected then disregard my comments! I'm simply on a mission to ensure accurate and helpful information is available - if nothing else it saves me time from having to correct the public record! ;)
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Thousand Ways
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29 Sep 2015

Thanks, Selig. Re: Boggg1's post, I meant only the reference to the flow diagram. Agreed, his post is very interesting.

Anyone have any thoughts on my questions above (post dated Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:10 am)? Any answers much appreciated. This gain versus volume issue is melting my brain.

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