Thoughts on Discover

[Tincture]

One of my first questions when I upgrade to discover will be... what is the average dB headroom level so that it can be worked with effectively? Maybe -6dB... but then maybe it sounds poor compared with a -1dB sound... ahh the limiting thing... it's bad enough it's mp3... but if it's already been limited at 0dB... it's pretty much unusable surely.... I'm guessing these things have been discussed and sorted out

[EnochLight]

Now, give me a version that lets me upload stems in a lossless format...

I could never take Discover seriously unless it provided stems as a standard. How on earth do you remix / build on someone's work with it all squished in to one track, you can't do anything except layer on top of it, it's just weird to me. I do like the idea of other people taking my work and expanding on it though, that can be a lot of fun and motivating too.

There's ways around the lack of stems, currently (but not using a lossless format) if you really want to work with them. To provide stems to Discover, you have to mute each track one at a time and upload them separately. A pain in the ass, for sure, but it can be done - including all of the time signature and tempo data. You can do this in Reason projects to Discover, as well as Take and Figure tracks to Discover.

One of my first questions when I upgrade to discover will be... what is the average dB headroom level so that it can be worked with effectively? Maybe -6dB... but then maybe it sounds poor compared with a -1dB sound... ahh the limiting thing... it's bad enough it's mp3... but if it's already been limited at 0dB... it's pretty much unusable surely.... I'm guessing these things have been discussed and sorted out

That depends entirely on what the person is uploading. I've seen (heard) content uploaded & squashed to 0 db and I've seen (heard) content at minus several db. It just really depends on the user's skill at mixing.

[Tincture]

Yeah I don't suppose it matters too much for this sort of thing.

[Yonatan]

The purpose of Discover as a playing ground for users, building songs with the snippets from others, needs to be divided into at least 2 main sections:
1) Snippets, loops, chords from an guitar, a shorter vocal thing etc. See them as giveaways to be used freely by all users, no copyright or some sort of public access license that allows one to use if also mentioning all who they "sampled" (which would encourage ppl to see their little pieces become real songs, to be mentioned but not get paid if the song gets commercial).

2) All the songs that have used pieces from the "Discover Library". Here you will have more options so it will be declared in color Red if the track is "closed" (not allowed for further download and remixes), or Yellow if the maker has a specific part he/she want to be added but being able to choose whom to bring that and also sharing the royalty in some way as a co-worker. And Green shows that the track is open as a free downloadable and can be used by all users just like a demo-song. The options could also include different choices if you want to download a multi reason songfile, or as a stereo mix if you for instance are using it on an iphone/ipad.

Now I find a confused Discover page mixed real songs or remixes with simple loops or samples.
For me, a section divided or at least clear labelings in colors what each piece is, would be a great step forward
into making it more inspiring to use. So you could just use a PH drumloop, maybe also use a synth pad, and a vocal thing,
then import them all one by one into Reason and from trhere build a whole new song, mixing it, laying new instruments, singing etc.
And then you share the result with PH Discover, and others can see what you have done, all from a few pieces of sounds from the library.
The song could be closed and all rights to you, or shared as a common. It would be like a cloud based way to expand the Factory Sound Bank,
but letting in all users to contribute to the feast. You can search for different "tags" just like on twitter #synthbass #vocal #drumloop and so on...

So in this way, you can do just as you do now, but it expands it further more in line with what Reason has been all about, making Refills, some are for sale but many are free. Just as with Combinators. Ideally both refills and Combinators would be integrated into this great library/forum.
The organisation of these different things and a sophisticated search engine, is what is needed. Even the shop with REs and commercial Refills could be included if the user wants that. So this library could include the whole PH catalog of effects and sounds, but as well limited as narrow as you want, for instance if you only looking for a free guitar riff, you can find it. So my "dream" is that Discover would instead be the name of a combinated Library and Search Engine (the name is perfect for both these uses). And ideally later also having a user forum where ppl can share lessons and tips and tricks and talk to each other under their nicknames. And I could easily click on a name to see what that user shares free (loops, songs, combinators etc), and I could also send an message or invitation for a collaboration, linking to something on my site, giving comments....or whatever. But I think you get the main picture!

[gak]

a) you older joiners that haven't updated your avatars need to get with the program!

b) some truth. It has a long ways to go. But it's summer. I do not think that the props are just simply resting on their laurels and they'll never update it. If by xmas it's not gone a few changes, then maybe it's a dog. We'll see.

[Yonatan]

@gak
a) Well, I do want "?" as an avatar because I have a lot of questions in my mind.
b) No one says all must happen right now. Just discussing betterments ahead.
PH do read here from time to time, so it´s good to express visions and thoughts.

Summer has just ended here in Sweden, so we are just getting into the "work"-mode,
so yes, it will take quite a while before we will see any 8.4 or Discover 2.0.
But in September we might at least get some new REs to try out.

[Jagwah]

Gak, man! Less posting more music making - go!!!!

[Namahs Amrak]

Do people not work in the Summer in Sweden ? Maybe that explains a lot, nobody's in the office for three months of the year.

[Yonatan]

In Sweden the summer is busy with ppl trying to get some kind of life outside of the office. Even those working, are working in a dead zone.
We have 5 weeks holiday and most ppl take that after swedish "Midsommar" around 20th of June, July and August, So the months of July and August, always quite few ppl are gone, so I can imagine that at PH for instance, they can do certain things (maybe Discover adds) but not the things that takes all of them together to decide and make. So who knows, the things updated now in the shop might be from June or July.
So now when everyone is back and gathered, I am sure we will see a lot of things ahead, at least from september and onward until Christmas.
Then it will be silent again, and a bit into january, then the engine are working again in late january.
But last year the R8 really came as from nowhere, which surprised me as it was just in August it was told of. So my rule is: never ever think you know exactly how PH will act. It´s a mystery somtimes, even for a swede. But probably Stockholm has another way to work which I do not understand.

[KEVMOVE02]

Kev, you are implying people are idiots if they find it "hard to grasp" the licensing agreement. Music licensing is complex, and the Discover licensing is a good example of that. For example, music copyright laws apply to the music, the lyrics, and the recording/production seperately. How does this work in Discover? Have you given away unlimited free use of your lyrics too?

1. Discover is a beta product.
2. Discover is a sharing service. As stated plainly in the Terms and Conditions (which everyone clicks the "I agree" box prior to activation). To provide clarity, Propellerhead added clever little annotations to make sure it was clear in its intent. Here's just one:

Because we offer an open music sharing service, we ask for broad rights, so we can publish files on the Internet, and so others can freely use the stuff that is posted. In kind, you’ll to be able to use everything you find on the service.Know that even though you are granting broad rights to all, you always maintain ownership of your stuff. We don’t intend to sell your content. Other people on the service might end up doing something successful with content they find and even make money from it (and so could you for that matter).

3. Discover does not offer services designed for professional musicians. Ignore that reality at your own peril.
4. The audience for this post is very specific.
5. By posting that you have "shared" 104 musical clips on Discover, you imply that you are more clever than most.

[Yonatan]

I think that the confusion and lack of understanding what Discover is about and works, is what can be tricky. Maybe PH could make a video in a more educating manner as they do a lot with other essential functions. What is allowed, the ideas behind it, the pupose and also how it works. Step by step.
I am not saying ppl here don´t know how it works, but I am quite sure some ppl who take part do not really understand what it is and their rights or lack of rights, and also some regulations and suggestions on how you can use it in your creative workflow, for songwriting, practice and so on. So PH can show what it is supposed to be, and also what it is not aimed to be.

I must admit I have a crucial question I would love to know if any of you can answer. It is holding me back when it comes to sharing anything.
I have dropped a couple of song-mixes onto my Discover accounnt, I had them all "unlisted", but even if I unlisted so they are not part of PHs feed, I still see that each of them allows for download. It still says "Build on this". So my question is simply:
If I now make a nice loop and do want to share it to PHs feed, and lets say they put it out on the site for Discover, if someone then click on my nickname, will they see and be able to download and work on my unlisted mixes of songs I only dropped for personal reference? Is there no way at the moment to participate with something without letting it all be available and used by others for commercial purpose. Or is the unlisted only private and not viewable at all for other users?

[gak]

Gak, man! Less posting more music making - go!!!!

Yer fired!

[yamguitar]

I think the idea of a true social network-type experience for making music is certainly a natural one, and despite other attempts at music-based social media, until Discover it had all been about listening to other people's music or sharing one's personal tastes in listening. There are lots of such sites (like Soundcloud, for example), but no other DAW has really made a foray into such a thing for people who like to actually make music. I think the loop-based, softsynth nature of Reason really suits such an idea, I think the iPhone apps are absolutely brilliant and fun, and I love the idea of the integration of such a system into the actual Reason platform. The idea of using someone else's tossed-together beats to make my own music is unappealing to me, but I think it's a great idea and I can totally see where someone might find it super-fun. That said, as someone who has no interest in using it, I’ve been a little frustrated to see so much of Propellerhead’s somewhat limited pool of resources go to pushing it. When I log in on their website, I’m forced to wander through the latest blather about what 8-bar beat people are noodling over, and news I actually need as a user (like info about updates) has to be unearthed through diligent searching.

It seems to me like they’re working very hard to create a vital community with Discover, which is commendable, logical, and marketable… but I also think Propellerhead missed the boat a bit by unceremoniously 86’ing the community that they had spent years cultivating: their own online forum. Good thing there’s Reasontalk, right?

…I’m excited to see where Discover goes, and as was pointed out, it’s not meant to be a professional tool, but a fun thing that draws people into the world of Reason. Boring to me, but I am watching with interest at how it develops.

[Yonatan]

@yamguitar - I can really relate to your thoughts above. Same here. I love to see where it goes although not involved myself. I hope it might come to a place where also I do find it more compelling in some useful way, but if not, it is still a nice thing to have, only not letting everything revolve around it to the expense of other areas. We need some more Balance